Book Alert: Social Justice Fallacies by Thomas Sowell

Quote:STANFORD, Calif., Sept. 19, 2023 -- Social Justice Fallacies is a book of documented facts that contradict most of the claims that are central to the social justice vision and agenda. However desirable the goals being sought by social justice advocates, the actual consequences of their crusades have included many - if not most - of the major social disasters of the twentieth century.

As those disasters continue - and grow worse in the twenty-first century - the time is long overdue to examine the facts, instead of just continuing to repeat the rhetoric.

That is the whole point of Social Justice Fallacies.

The Author:

Thomas Sowell is a Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University. He is an economist whose writings have ranged beyond economic issues to include many other issues. These writings have appeared in both popular and scholarly publications, and his books have been translated into a dozen languages.

In this wide-ranging interview, Dr. Sowell discusses the consequences of our society’s embarking on a quest for equality at the expense of merit. Even if every group in society is given an equal chance, he explains, these groups will end up with disparate levels of income or education. Dr. Sowell also criticizes the concept of systemic racism; his research reveals it doesn’t appear to apply to blacks (watch the interview to see why that word isn’t capitalized here) who are married. The interview concludes with Dr. Sowell reading a moving passage from his book.

'

Quote:10-02-2023 10:06 AM Post: #81 from RiceLad to OO:

I guess you didn't read about how the housing stock is at historical lows and new housing is desperately needed. So the proposal here looks to implement a supply-side response. I'm more in favor of a supply-side approach than say a rent/mortgage capping approach. IMO, incentivizing people to invest in a under-served market (in this case affordable housing) can be a good use of government funds.

Can't respond in the thread this was originally posted in for some reason, but it seems the truth is that there is actually a housing surplus, not a short supply. However, what IS at historical highs is 30+ million or more illegal border-crossers who have no right to be here illegally and are criminally breaking the very laws which most all legal citizens actually follow. It is this artificial and illegal "demand" by these illegal broder-crossers that is wrongfully and illegally soaking up all that extra surplus housing we actually have, causing housing prices to soar artificially, and making those who profit from the artificial and illegal inflation in housing prices and land values de facto accessories to the crime, albeit for many unwittingly and unwillingly. Thus, the solution to the alleged and fabricated lie of some fabricated 'historic low in housing' and the factually false 'desperate need for new housing requiring government' (i.e. legal citizen taxpayer dollars) to "fix" is simple: deport all 30+ million illegal border-crossers and presto! plenty of housing for legal American poor and middle class people to choose from. To those home"owners" (most are just mortgagees after all, and it is their banks whop actually own their homes until and unless they are paid off in full, which most will never be) who might complain about the resultant drop in their property values, whycome they no mad about the actual artificial and illegal-accessory to crime increase of those same values all these years the illegals have been propping them up, resulting in ill-gotten gains. True Dat: When you drives the getaway car, youse is still prosecuted and liable as an accessory for robbin' da bank.

the deportation of 30mm (or whatever it is) illegal aliens would have numerous effects... some good, some bad.

among them.

1) housing as you suggested.
2) many lower to middle wage jobs would open up... SOME could be exported, but many/most could not.
3) for those that could not be exported, you'd likely see upward wage pressures and technology innovations.
4) crime would decrease/police's ability to focus on other crime would be helped... not saying these people are more prone to be criminals... they are more prone to be victims.... often surviving in a world that hides from the police... can't go to them for help, but police have to show up when there is a shooting or death or fire or what have you. The number of un-reported crimes, some of them HORRIBLE has got to be massive.,

I mean, its not really practical to deport 30mm people especially when you don't know who/where they are... but the concept is correct and steps could be taken.

(10-04-2023 12:48 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  the deportation of 30mm (or whatever it is) illegal aliens would have numerous effects... some good, some bad.

among them.

1) housing as you suggested.
2) many lower to middle wage jobs would open up... SOME could be exported, but many/most could not.
3) for those that could not be exported, you'd likely see upward wage pressures and technology innovations.
4) crime would decrease/police's ability to focus on other crime would be helped... not saying these people are more prone to be criminals... they are more prone to be victims.... often surviving in a world that hides from the police... can't go to them for help, but police have to show up when there is a shooting or death or fire or what have you. The number of un-reported crimes, some of them HORRIBLE has got to be massive.,

I mean, its not really practical to deport 30mm people especially when you don't know who/where they are... but the concept is correct and steps could be taken.

So, are you implying it's more practical to allow the presence of 30mm+ illegals here to destroy our economy, drastically increase our crime rate, destabilize our nation and pi$$ on our Constitution? I disagree, strongly. It is VERRY practical to deport them all, all 30mm+ illegals, and help actual Legal American Citizens who abide by our laws and Constitution instead. VERY Practical.

(10-23-2023 02:27 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(10-04-2023 12:48 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  the deportation of 30mm (or whatever it is) illegal aliens would have numerous effects... some good, some bad.

among them.

1) housing as you suggested.
2) many lower to middle wage jobs would open up... SOME could be exported, but many/most could not.
3) for those that could not be exported, you'd likely see upward wage pressures and technology innovations.
4) crime would decrease/police's ability to focus on other crime would be helped... not saying these people are more prone to be criminals... they are more prone to be victims.... often surviving in a world that hides from the police... can't go to them for help, but police have to show up when there is a shooting or death or fire or what have you. The number of un-reported crimes, some of them HORRIBLE has got to be massive.,

I mean, its not really practical to deport 30mm people especially when you don't know who/where they are... but the concept is correct and steps could be taken.

So, are you implying it's more practical to allow the presence of 30mm+ illegals here to destroy our economy, drastically increase our crime rate, destabilize our nation and pi$$ on our Constitution? I disagree, strongly. It is VERRY practical to deport them all, all 30mm+ illegals, and help actual Legal American Citizens who abide by our laws and Constitution instead. VERY Practical.

Not at all what I suggested.

I said 'good and bad'.... but if you look at the examples I gave... every one of them has the good outweighing the bad IMO.

The 'worst' thing I mentioned is that despite jobs opening up and some jobs would be exported, technology would probably push wages higher. We probably still lose net more manufacturing jobs because wages and regulations and environmental issues make it all but impossible to compete in many arenas globally, but I'm okay with losing manufacturing of most 'non-necessities'.... and that is where most illegal immigrants work. They aren't generally building cars or airplanes.

(10-23-2023 03:21 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-23-2023 02:27 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(10-04-2023 12:48 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  the deportation of 30mm (or whatever it is) illegal aliens would have numerous effects... some good, some bad.

among them.

1) housing as you suggested.
2) many lower to middle wage jobs would open up... SOME could be exported, but many/most could not.
3) for those that could not be exported, you'd likely see upward wage pressures and technology innovations.
4) crime would decrease/police's ability to focus on other crime would be helped... not saying these people are more prone to be criminals... they are more prone to be victims.... often surviving in a world that hides from the police... can't go to them for help, but police have to show up when there is a shooting or death or fire or what have you. The number of un-reported crimes, some of them HORRIBLE has got to be massive.,

I mean, its not really practical to deport 30mm people especially when you don't know who/where they are... but the concept is correct and steps could be taken.

So, are you implying it's more practical to allow the presence of 30mm+ illegals here to destroy our economy, drastically increase our crime rate, destabilize our nation and pi$$ on our Constitution? I disagree, strongly. It is VERRY practical to deport them all, all 30mm+ illegals, and help actual Legal American Citizens who abide by our laws and Constitution instead. VERY Practical.

Not at all what I suggested.

I said 'good and bad'.... but if you look at the examples I gave... every one of them has the good outweighing the bad IMO.

The 'worst' thing I mentioned is that despite jobs opening up and some jobs would be exported, technology would probably push wages higher. We probably still lose net more manufacturing jobs because wages and regulations and environmental issues make it all but impossible to compete in many arenas globally, but I'm okay with losing manufacturing of most 'non-necessities'.... and that is where most illegal immigrants work. They aren't generally building cars or airplanes.

I'm looking more at the overall effects of having so many illegal people within our Republic's borders. I'm not convinced that losing manufacturing of most 'non-necessities' as you call them, is necessarily okay. We seem to have a big enough market to handle those ourselves with only peripheral imports versus massive trade-deficit level ones. The macro effect on the unnecessary expansion of governemnet and related services is what is most ytroublesome, along with the greatly increased crime from folks who are already skirting the law by definition and opening themselves and others up to increased risk of criminal situations and behaviors. To me there's just no upside to having illegal people here, wherever they come from, but there's tremendous downside, and it will only get worse unless we start massive deportations.

(10-23-2023 03:45 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(10-23-2023 03:21 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-23-2023 02:27 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(10-04-2023 12:48 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  the deportation of 30mm (or whatever it is) illegal aliens would have numerous effects... some good, some bad.

among them.

1) housing as you suggested.
2) many lower to middle wage jobs would open up... SOME could be exported, but many/most could not.
3) for those that could not be exported, you'd likely see upward wage pressures and technology innovations.
4) crime would decrease/police's ability to focus on other crime would be helped... not saying these people are more prone to be criminals... they are more prone to be victims.... often surviving in a world that hides from the police... can't go to them for help, but police have to show up when there is a shooting or death or fire or what have you. The number of un-reported crimes, some of them HORRIBLE has got to be massive.,

I mean, its not really practical to deport 30mm people especially when you don't know who/where they are... but the concept is correct and steps could be taken.

So, are you implying it's more practical to allow the presence of 30mm+ illegals here to destroy our economy, drastically increase our crime rate, destabilize our nation and pi$$ on our Constitution? I disagree, strongly. It is VERRY practical to deport them all, all 30mm+ illegals, and help actual Legal American Citizens who abide by our laws and Constitution instead. VERY Practical.

Not at all what I suggested.

I said 'good and bad'.... but if you look at the examples I gave... every one of them has the good outweighing the bad IMO.

The 'worst' thing I mentioned is that despite jobs opening up and some jobs would be exported, technology would probably push wages higher. We probably still lose net more manufacturing jobs because wages and regulations and environmental issues make it all but impossible to compete in many arenas globally, but I'm okay with losing manufacturing of most 'non-necessities'.... and that is where most illegal immigrants work. They aren't generally building cars or airplanes.

I'm looking more at the overall effects of having so many illegal people within our Republic's borders.

Didn't I answer that? Generally I said, there are pros and cons... and the sheer magnitude of the effort would be an issue, but generally the pros of deporting them would outweigh the cons.

Quote: I'm not convinced that losing manufacturing of most 'non-necessities' as you call them, is necessarily okay.

Okay.... so are you implying that its more practical to allow 30mm illegal aliens to remain here than to make things better? That's a bit tongue in cheek... but it seems you're trying to argue with me when I haven't said anything that you have argued with.

Quote:We seem to have a big enough market to handle those ourselves with only peripheral imports versus massive trade-deficit level ones.

It's not about the size of the market, but about the size of the labor population. It is already a struggle to hire remotely competent help in some markets... and if significant portions of 'local' labor pool gets deported, they have to be replaced... either by technology or 'legal' local labor, which drives up priced for local labor.... and makes it tougher to compete with now 30mm more (mostly) laborers in Mexico.

I'd expect more fast food joints to employ kiosks.... more stores going to self-checkout or even RFID scans... I'd expect more lawn mowing 'bots'... more farm technology... etc etc etc. Not a HUGE change, but a change. You're talking 10% of the population (roughly).... and probably even more of the labor market.

Quote:The macro effect on the unnecessary expansion of governemnet and related services is what is most ytroublesome, along with the greatly increased crime from folks who are already skirting the law by definition and opening themselves and others up to increased risk of criminal situations and behaviors. To me there's just no upside to having illegal people here, wherever they come from, but there's tremendous downside, and it will only get worse unless we start massive deportations.

Didn't I say precisely that??

I'm trying to figure out what you're disagreeing with.

Best I can tell, you're more aggressive about it in terms of 'damn the torpedoes'... but I agree that we need to 'do it'. I just don't think you can decide to simply 'round them up'.... we don't know where most of them are/don't have the manpower to do so... there may be other legal issues as in, they marry a citizen or they have a child 'here' who is now a Citizen or they are part of a lawsuit and their deportation would deprive a citizen of justice etc etc .... but despite these issues, it still needs to be done imo.

(10-23-2023 04:37 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-23-2023 03:45 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(10-23-2023 03:21 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-23-2023 02:27 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  [quote='Hambone10' pid='19190131' dateline='1696441706']
the deportation of 30mm (or whatever it is) illegal aliens would have numerous effects... some good, some bad.

among them.

1) housing as you suggested.
2) many lower to middle wage jobs would open up... SOME could be exported, but many/most could not.
3) for those that could not be exported, you'd likely see upward wage pressures and technology innovations.
4) crime would decrease/police's ability to focus on other crime would be helped... not saying these people are more prone to be criminals... they are more prone to be victims.... often surviving in a world that hides from the police... can't go to them for help, but police have to show up when there is a shooting or death or fire or what have you. The number of un-reported crimes, some of them HORRIBLE has got to be massive.,

I mean, its not really practical to deport 30mm people especially when you don't know who/where they are... but the concept is correct and steps could be taken.

So, are you implying it's more practical to allow the presence of 30mm+ illegals here to destroy our economy, drastically increase our crime rate, destabilize our nation and pi$$ on our Constitution? I disagree, strongly. It is VERRY practical to deport them all, all 30mm+ illegals, and help actual Legal American Citizens who abide by our laws and Constitution instead. VERY Practical.

Not at all what I suggested.

I said 'good and bad'.... but if you look at the examples I gave... every one of them has the good outweighing the bad IMO.

The 'worst' thing I mentioned is that despite jobs opening up and some jobs would be exported, technology would probably push wages higher. We probably still lose net more manufacturing jobs because wages and regulations and environmental issues make it all but impossible to compete in many arenas globally, but I'm okay with losing manufacturing of most 'non-necessities'.... and that is where most illegal immigrants work. They aren't generally building cars or airplanes.

I'm looking more at the overall effects of having so many illegal people within our Republic's borders.

(10-23-2023 04:37 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Didn't I answer that? Generally I said, there are pros and cons... and the sheer magnitude of the effort would be an issue, but generally the pros of deporting them would outweigh the cons.

My bad. I do agree the pros outweigh the cons, perhaps to a greater extent than you see, but we agree.

(10-23-2023 04:37 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-23-2023 02:27 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  I'm not convinced that losing manufacturing of most 'non-necessities' as you call them, is necessarily okay.

Okay.... so are you implying that its more practical to allow 30mm illegal aliens to remain here than to make things better? That's a bit tongue in cheek... but it seems you're trying to argue with me when I haven't said anything that you have argued with.

No, no no I want illegals all gone from within our borders... Let me try to be more clear. I might have read what you wrote wrong. I thought you meant you would be fine with not manufacturing what you called 'non-necessities' here and thereby presumably importing them instead (to what extent you didn't say, but it seemed like most or all). You mean "manufacturing" when you say "make" in the above (as in efficiency) or do you mean "make things better" by deporting the illegals?

I was meaning I think we can manufacture things, both essential and 'non-necessities' without needing illegals here at all. IOW, I don't think we have to give up making 'non-essentials' if we don't have illegals here. I think we agree, but again I may have read your meaning wrong when I posted.

(10-23-2023 04:37 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-23-2023 02:27 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  We seem to have a big enough market to handle those ourselves with only peripheral imports versus massive trade-deficit level ones.

It's not about the size of the market, but about the size of the labor population. It is already a struggle to hire remotely competent help in some markets... and if significant portions of 'local' labor pool gets deported, they have to be replaced... either by technology or 'legal' local labor, which drives up priced for local labor.... and makes it tougher to compete with now 30mm more (mostly) laborers in Mexico.

I'd expect more fast food joints to employ kiosks.... more stores going to self-checkout or even RFID scans... I'd expect more lawn mowing 'bots'... more farm technology... etc etc etc. Not a HUGE change, but a change. You're talking 10% of the population (roughly).... and probably even more of the labor market.

I don't think the labor situation is to where allowing illegal labor is our only or best option. I understand that that mentality is how some try to "justify" its presence here, if you will.

I think the costs of illegal labor being here outweigh any perceived 'benefits'. Prices are going up, and to me a big part of it has much more to do with the massive amounts of non-American citizens here distorting our markets and increasing our carrying costs. Illegals from wherever generally don't pay for themselves and they cost us overall in the end. It's indirect effect, but it's not worth it to us overall (though certainly seems so to some individuals who use them.)

Yes, I realize about 10% of the population is illegal, and that's a big number, but I do think we can compensate with extended work lifetimes, reclaiming many of our "lost" citizens from addiction, crime, divorce, et cetera and increasing the use of technology that s good, like robots for agriculture and some of the other things you mentioned. Let's face it, the "migrant" worker thing isn't really as necessary anymore when AI and robots can now step in. Of course, our relatively abysmal education model will have to improve. I'm not sure the Left wants better educated workers unless it's more woke, social justice and gender-theory nonsense that is anti-productive and useless.

(10-23-2023 04:37 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-23-2023 02:27 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  The macro effect on the unnecessary expansion of government and related services is what is most troublesome, along with the greatly increased crime from folks who are already skirting the law by definition and opening themselves and others up to increased risk of criminal situations and behaviors. To me there's just no upside to having illegal people here, wherever they come from, but there's tremendous downside, and it will only get worse unless we start massive deportations.

Didn't I say precisely that??

I'm trying to figure out what you're disagreeing with.

Best I can tell, you're more aggressive about it in terms of 'damn the torpedoes'... but I agree that we need to 'do it'. I just don't think you can decide to simply 'round them up'.... we don't know where most of them are/don't have the manpower to do so... there may be other legal issues as in, they marry a citizen or they have a child 'here' who is now a Citizen or they are part of a lawsuit and their deportation would deprive a citizen of justice etc etc .... but despite these issues, it still needs to be done imo.

We do largely agree and yes, I do think we should and can be a LOT more aggressive. Part of the issue is that while some folks agree this is a problem, there is no united will to do something abut it. The platitudes like "fix our broken immigration system" mean little when too many offer sanctuary, government payments, jobs, pathways to citizenship, free education for children, free hospital and medical treatment, id cards, local election voting, et cetera. Yeah, I do think you can simply 'round them up.' It seems past time to make anyone illegal fear being deported instead of being hand-held and spoon-fed by the government that essentially needs them to justify its over-bloated social system largesse. We have manpower, but they have been actively prevented from enforcing the law by dumb judges and frivolous lawsuits. These folks don't have any Constitutional rights here. We need to stop acting like they do. They marry a citizen has been a tradition, but that Amendment originally was written for and applied only to former enslaved. We have the laws. We have the manpower, but leaders don't really want to let anyone actually do it because they make too much money and gain too much power from it existing here. Same as slavery. It's just a new name for it. End it. If it still needs to be done then just do it and don't need to apologize.


I'd want folks like you and me to spend more energy and though on how to deport illegals here as efficiently and expediently as possible, especially since we seem to agree in general.
{Brackets are problematic when responding like this, but I wanted to break it out as you did above. Thanks for your patience.}

(10-23-2023 05:57 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  I'd want folks like you and me to spend more energy and though on how to deport illegals here as efficiently and expediently as possible, especially since we seem to agree in general.

Fair. Understand how my thought process works... not that you have to agree with it, just how I work...

If you eliminate the 'no' then all you are left with is the 'yes'.... So I absolutely start by looking at the reasons NOT to do something. This is also sometimes effective when dealing with hot-button political issues (where ideology plays a part) because you're not going to convince someone to change their ideology, but you can certainly address their complaints so that they cannot influence anyone else.... AND by recognizing their concerns, you can address them which will eliminate them as concerns for others.... sometimes directly from an ideological standpoint.

Example... If you remove 15mm lower wage, lower skill employees from the workforce, the demand for people to fill those roles increases... and likely the wages they can command will also increase... which means higher wages for 'minimum wage' employees.... which is something that many who support open borders would also support. Also, if you're ultimately doing the work of 2-3 people (with the help of technology) you're likely learning transportable skills to make yourself able to do that... which makes you even more upwardly mobile. etc etc etc

My solution is to do what the rest of the (at least, the civilized) world does--a points-based merit system of legal immigration, plus permanent guest worker visas with no path to citizenship (except to serve a full hitch in the military with an honorable discharge). And people born here do not automatically become citizens unless their parents were here legally.

(10-24-2023 12:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My solution is to do what the rest of the (at least, the civilized) world does--a points-based merit system of legal immigration, plus permanent guest worker visas with no path to citizenship (except to serve a full hitch in the military with an honorable discharge). And people born here do not automatically become citizens unless their parents were here legally.

Mostly agree. I would limit citizenship to those with at least one US citizen parent.

(10-24-2023 12:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-24-2023 12:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My solution is to do what the rest of the (at least, the civilized) world does--a points-based merit system of legal immigration, plus permanent guest worker visas with no path to citizenship (except to serve a full hitch in the military with an honorable discharge). And people born here do not automatically become citizens unless their parents were here legally.

Mostly agree. I would limit citizenship to those with at least one US citizen parent.

Besides the constitutional issue, if you go that route you eventually end up with a majority population with no say in matters except violence, as the Romans came to find out. But even the Romans allowed non-citizens to purchase citizenship.

(10-24-2023 03:48 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(10-24-2023 12:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-24-2023 12:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My solution is to do what the rest of the (at least, the civilized) world does--a points-based merit system of legal immigration, plus permanent guest worker visas with no path to citizenship (except to serve a full hitch in the military with an honorable discharge). And people born here do not automatically become citizens unless their parents were here legally.

Mostly agree. I would limit citizenship to those with at least one US citizen parent.

Besides the constitutional issue, if you go that route you eventually end up with a majority population with no say in matters except violence, as the Romans came to find out. But even the Romans allowed non-citizens to purchase citizenship.

Isn't that only if you assume you're not enforcng the laws and deporting those here illegally? To me, the debate is not if we should be deporting but how many? As a law-abiding citrizen, my perspective is to deport them all, since their presence here is de facto not abiding by the law. Sometimes, the law does not work in my favor, but I still abide by it. Seems fair to expect that from others as well, especially when it comes to something like citizenship.

(10-24-2023 03:48 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(10-24-2023 12:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-24-2023 12:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My solution is to do what the rest of the (at least, the civilized) world does--a points-based merit system of legal immigration, plus permanent guest worker visas with no path to citizenship (except to serve a full hitch in the military with an honorable discharge). And people born here do not automatically become citizens unless their parents were here legally.

Mostly agree. I would limit citizenship to those with at least one US citizen parent.

Besides the constitutional issue, if you go that route you eventually end up with a majority population with no say in matters except violence, as the Romans came to find out. But even the Romans allowed non-citizens to purchase citizenship.

I think a path to citizenship would be good for guest workers - it doesn’t have to be short or easy. Military service or, say, 10+ years of a record of no criminal charges, paying taxes, and consistent work history.

I’m very fine with providing a pathway to citizenship for hard working laborers, so long as they play by the rules.

(10-25-2023 04:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(10-24-2023 03:48 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(10-24-2023 12:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(10-24-2023 12:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My solution is to do what the rest of the (at least, the civilized) world does--a points-based merit system of legal immigration, plus permanent guest worker visas with no path to citizenship (except to serve a full hitch in the military with an honorable discharge). And people born here do not automatically become citizens unless their parents were here legally.

Mostly agree. I would limit citizenship to those with at least one US citizen parent.

Besides the constitutional issue, if you go that route you eventually end up with a majority population with no say in matters except violence, as the Romans came to find out. But even the Romans allowed non-citizens to purchase citizenship.

I think a path to citizenship would be good for guest workers - it doesn’t have to be short or easy. Military service or, say, 10+ years of a record of no criminal charges, paying taxes, and consistent work history.

I’m very fine with providing a pathway to citizenship for hard working laborers, so long as they play by the rules.

Paying taxes is one of the rules.

Maybe if one of the requirements was showing a tax return for each year they are here.

The path to citizenship for green card workers (legal residents) would be something like this:

1. Apply to start the five year process. Don't just show up and say I been here a long time. The application starts the five year clock.
2. Provide tax returns for each of residence
3. Avoid being arrested and convicted, at least for felonies.
4. Take courses in American civics and/or pass a test, like current naturalized citizens
5. Learn English

I think five years is enough time for a hard working legal immigrant to accomplish items 4 and 5. If one cannot spare the time to take the courses, there is the alternative of a short test.

We we are to provide paths, we must enforce the rules to use those those paths.


I don't see how limiting birth citizenship to those with at least one US citizen parent would result in a majority population of non-citizens.

And yes, the Constitution would have to be amended, as it has been before. The rules on citizenship would need to be changed for the same reasons some people want to abolish the second amendment - that was then and this is now. I am sure if the liberals want to make a path they would work to change the Constitution (HAH!!!)

(10-24-2023 12:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My solution is to do what the rest of the (at least, the civilized) world does--

This is one of those ideas where 'American Exceptionalism' is a burden rather than a blessing.

For much of our history, we had a lot of land and not a lot of population.... at least not relative to many other parts of the world... especially those where 'our people' came from... and while we were the land of opportunity, we were also the land of hard work... since we really didn't have much to build upon, just a lot to build WITH... so more open borders made some sense.

This is no longer the case in the US, nor is the global situation the same. Things that happen in China absolutely impact is and vice versa... and resources (especially land) are much more scarce. The issues for NYC with 1mm people are vastly different than the issued for NYC with 10mm people... much less 30mm people

(10-25-2023 08:59 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I don't see how limiting birth citizenship to those with at least one US citizen parent would result in a majority population of non-citizens.

I like most of what you say... and I don't really have an issue with this, but I want to note something...

What you encourage you get more of... so I can see an 'industry' of sorts (at least a dating app) where the 90 day fiance' becomes even more of a business.... and women with children already would be even more desperate to have more... so now you could have a citizen father of one now has a wife and 3 other step-children here illegally.

I just see the human traffickers making a fortune by running a dating service.

(10-25-2023 09:09 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(10-25-2023 08:59 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I don't see how limiting birth citizenship to those with at least one US citizen parent would result in a majority population of non-citizens.

I like most of what you say... and I don't really have an issue with this, but I want to note something...

What you encourage you get more of... so I can see an 'industry' of sorts (at least a dating app) where the 90 day fiance' becomes even more of a business.... and women with children already would be even more desperate to have more... so now you could have a citizen father of one now has a wife and 3 other step-children here illegally.

I just see the human traffickers making a fortune by running a dating service.

Kind of like the "anchor baby" thing now, where 9 month pregnant women come to the US for a month or so to have their baby. Yeah, there will always be people trying to circumvent the rules. We have to work to make that difficult.

(10-25-2023 08:59 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The path to citizenship for green card workers (legal residents) would be something like this:

1. Apply to start the five year process. Don't just show up and say I been here a long time. The application starts the five year clock.
2. Provide tax returns for each of residence
3. Avoid being arrested and convicted, at least for felonies.
4. Take courses in American civics and/or pass a test, like current naturalized citizens
5. Learn English

I am glad you put the and there (emphasis added). I would hate (especially given the rather low standard required for and immense governmental discretion involved in arrests) to see someone penalized for an arrest which does not result in a conviction -- although there are plenty of misguided souls who would propose exactly that. It would be un-American, to put it mildly.

(10-25-2023 10:20 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(10-25-2023 08:59 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The path to citizenship for green card workers (legal residents) would be something like this:

1. Apply to start the five year process. Don't just show up and say I been here a long time. The application starts the five year clock.
2. Provide tax returns for each of residence
3. Avoid being arrested and convicted, at least for felonies.
4. Take courses in American civics and/or pass a test, like current naturalized citizens
5. Learn English

I am glad you put the and there (emphasis added). I would hate (especially given the rather low standard required for and immense governmental discretion involved in arrests) to see someone penalized for an arrest which does not result in a conviction -- although there are plenty of misguided souls who would propose exactly that. It would be un-American, to put it mildly.

Yeah, originally I had just the "arrested", and then thought to myself, "That's not right".