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Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
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jnewyouth Offline
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Post: #1
Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
Will the Military, Fenway, and Hawaii Bowls still pay their payouts even though the Bowls have been cancelled? If not how will the AAC’s Bowl payouts be lessened now that SMU, ECU, and Memphis have each had their bowls cancelled?
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2021 05:57 PM by jnewyouth.)
12-27-2021 05:56 PM
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CrownRoyal Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
No payout from the Military Bowl to either team.
12-27-2021 06:31 PM
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sierrajip Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
I wonder how much money ESPiN is losing.
12-27-2021 07:42 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
(12-27-2021 05:56 PM)jnewyouth Wrote:  Will the Military, Fenway, and Hawaii Bowls still pay their payouts even though the Bowls have been cancelled? If not how will the AAC’s Bowl payouts be lessened now that SMU, ECU, and Memphis have each had their bowls cancelled?

It stands to reason that the AAC will lose payouts from all three of those canceled bowls, as will the ACC and MW.
12-27-2021 07:45 PM
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sierrajip Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
(12-27-2021 07:45 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(12-27-2021 05:56 PM)jnewyouth Wrote:  Will the Military, Fenway, and Hawaii Bowls still pay their payouts even though the Bowls have been cancelled? If not how will the AAC’s Bowl payouts be lessened now that SMU, ECU, and Memphis have each had their bowls cancelled?

It stands to reason that the AAC will lose payouts from all three of those canceled bowls, as will the ACC and MW.

As far as ACC teams, perception matters.
12-27-2021 07:57 PM
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sfink16 Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
Does the reduction of days in quarantine by the federal standards matter, from 10 to 5 days?
12-27-2021 08:10 PM
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Off_The_Hook Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
(12-27-2021 08:10 PM)sfink16 Wrote:  Does the reduction of days in quarantine by the federal standards matter, from 10 to 5 days?

Not unless the NCAA makes a move. Too late for the bowl games but I would be very surprised if nothing is done to secure the CFP.
12-27-2021 08:27 PM
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CrownRoyal Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
(12-27-2021 07:42 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  I wonder how much money ESPiN is losing.

I'm more concerned with how mch ECU is losing. Screw ESPN.
12-27-2021 09:22 PM
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sierrajip Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
(12-27-2021 09:22 PM)CrownRoyal Wrote:  
(12-27-2021 07:42 PM)sierrajip Wrote:  I wonder how much money ESPiN is losing.

I'm more concerned with how mch ECU is losing. Screw ESPN.

I am too. Does ESPiN care. They run these bowls. What is their position? I am looking at it through the AAC perspective. Which of these bowl games are going to be played through the cancellations and which teams.
12-27-2021 09:46 PM
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SadderBudweiser Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
They better at the very least tighten up SMU enough to pay the fines their equipment truck racked up on the Merritt Parkway. Or at least send a lawyer up from Connecticut to defend us in traffic court.
12-28-2021 08:14 AM
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tigerjeb Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
from Laird Veatch's open letter post Hawaii Bowl - "Question 2 - what are the financial impacts? Contrary to what some might expect, Bowl games are not financially advantageous. In fact, unless you're in a NY6 game (as we were in the 2019 Cotton Bowl), Bowl games cost more than they bring in. Still, because the AAC covers the cost of the charter flight to the Hawaii Bowl and our staff has managed the Bowl wisely, we will operate within the AAC bowl stipend and supplemental Bowl allotment we budgeted for prior to the fiscal year. And we fully anticipate that ESPN and the AAC will fulfill those obligations, since we were fully prepared to fulfill ours"
12-28-2021 09:36 AM
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dave108 Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
(12-28-2021 09:36 AM)tigerjeb Wrote:  from Laird Veatch's open letter post Hawaii Bowl - "Question 2 - what are the financial impacts? Contrary to what some might expect, Bowl games are not financially advantageous. In fact, unless you're in a NY6 game (as we were in the 2019 Cotton Bowl), Bowl games cost more than they bring in. Still, because the AAC covers the cost of the charter flight to the Hawaii Bowl and our staff has managed the Bowl wisely, we will operate within the AAC bowl stipend and supplemental Bowl allotment we budgeted for prior to the fiscal year. And we fully anticipate that ESPN and the AAC will fulfill those obligations, since we were fully prepared to fulfill ours"

i really hope that happens - the teams that lost bowl games, through no fault of their own, should not get financially screwed. I hope the AAC steps up and ensures that that is the case. I have no idea how the contracts / agreements read, but its the right thing to do.
12-28-2021 09:45 AM
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PirateJP Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
Hats off to the ACC, they just exposed the whole bowl system. Win six games, get the bid, get the extra practice time, cancel at the last minute. The ACC schools will not miss this money from bowl season because their TV deal with ESPN makes these bowl payouts seem like pocket change. However to the AAC this money could go a long way towards helping program budgets.
12-28-2021 12:48 PM
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slhNavy91 Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
Okay...

Generally, year after year, the AAC's non-CFP bowl revenue is $4-5 million. For the conference. At the broadest of looks, a little under half a million dollars per institution, or 1-2% of any of our athletic budgets. Obviously, better to have it than not to have it, but not a program make-or-break for any of us.

Taking a closer look at this year's non-CFP bowl lineup:

Myrtle Beach Bowl - unk - slhNavy91 est $300,000*
Gasparilla Bowl - $562,500**
Birmingham Bowl - $687,272**

Military Bowl - $1,033,445**
Fenway Bowl - unk - slhNavy91 est $1 million***
Hawaii Bowl - $600,000**

* estimate based on Frisco Bowl, former Miami Beach Bowl, Cure Bowl, etc
** NCAA data from 2018 season
*** estimate based on Military Bowl - looks about the same in ACC pecking order...

As a conference, we lost two-three million in bowl revenue...compared to approx $83 million in primary media rights deal, $27 million in CFP money, and however much we get for MBB NCAA tournament credits.

So from a conference perspective, it sucks, but in the confrerence-level accounting, meh.
That's really easy for slhNavy91 to say - for the third time in seven years in the conference, Navy is sitting home during bowl season waiting on a welfare check, right? Three teams laid out real money to travel, what do they get back?!

Generally speaking, when you wonder why the distributions by school on the conference's Form 990 vary so much, TWO big contributing factors are bowl-related. First, in between the time all the bowl revenues go to the conference and the time those revenues are divided between all the football programs, the conference will provide bowl participants some payment for expenses, which is very variable: "bigger" bowls you're allowed a bigger party, then expenses are calculated for per diem and for mileage. The million dollar Military Bowl, you bring a bigger band (or more administrators or boosters) than the Myrtle Beach Bowl, and DC hotels might get more expenses reimbursed, but Navy just gets expenses for the bus trip, not for a charter flight.
Second, never forget that a big chunk of any "bowl payout" comes as tickets, not cash. How the conference handles that between conference funds and rewarding schools for their ticket sales can be done many different ways. Big picture, there is probably some "break-even" point, like half the ticket allotment, such that ticket sales above and beyond go into the school's coffers rather than being shared amongst all eleven. Looking at one example, then - ECU getting a bowl within driving distance and selling 5,500 tickets was probably looking at pure gain...wiped out by the cancellation (unless those who bought through the school are offered a "donate or refund?" choice).
And then, Hawaii and Bahamas Bowls are frequently cited as always being handled differently by participating conferences - they're so far that the travel costs are outside the normal calculation range, and they're so hard for fans to get to on short notice that the schools get let off the hook for those ticket sales.

Which makes this a good time to look at Memphis AD Laird Veatch's letter:

(12-28-2021 09:36 AM)tigerjeb Wrote:  from Laird Veatch's open letter post Hawaii Bowl - "Question 2 - what are the financial impacts? Contrary to what some might expect, Bowl games are not financially advantageous. In fact, unless you're in a NY6 game (as we were in the 2019 Cotton Bowl), Bowl games cost more than they bring in. Still, because the AAC covers the cost of the charter flight to the Hawaii Bowl and our staff has managed the Bowl wisely, we will operate within the AAC bowl stipend and supplemental Bowl allotment we budgeted for prior to the fiscal year. And we fully anticipate that ESPN and the AAC will fulfill those obligations, since we were fully prepared to fulfill ours"

When I read that, I noted the part "the AAC covers the cost of the charter flight to the Hawaii Bowl." and also the "we will operate within the AAC bowl stipend."

The conclusion I draw then -- expenses covered as normal, even without those bowls paying out. So the conference kitty overall will be smaller, so ALL eleven schools will get a slightly smaller distribution from the conference 30 June -- smaller by like single-digit percentage.
But I think it is highly likely that the three schools who got cancelled on will have their expenses reimbursed to the same level they would have expected had the games gone on.
Some loss for any who stood to GAIN from having good ticket sales.


Back up to the macro-level, I'm always interested by the discussion on the lines of: "Contrary to what some might expect, Bowl games are not financially advantageous. In fact, unless you're in a NY6 game (as we were in the 2019 Cotton Bowl), Bowl games cost more than they bring in."
Certainly, "Our line in the ledger for 'bowl expenses' is less than the line in our ledger for 'what the conference allotted us for bowl expenses' " could be a relatively common statement.
But....is the 'bowl expenses' line less than the 'what the conference allotted us for bowl expenses' PLUS the $300,000 common share of non-CFP bowl revenues in a normal year? Hmmmm...This year, having lost the revenue from three bowls, quite possibly. Normally, maybe not?
Then if you ALSO add 'our 1/11th of the $4 million NY6' or 'our 1/11th of the $6 million CFP' (which would be another $300k to $545k)...then you need to check your bowl spending. And I liked Laird's "our staff has managed the Bowl wisely," comment, so not pointing that at any of our school's in particular.

I always like this article from the 2013-2014 bowl season. There's obviously a big difference between the big bowls/payouts and the Myrtle Beach Bowls we get. But the "everyone loses money in bowls, omg!!1!" is way, way, way overplayed.

https://deadspin.com/teams-in-the-orange...1494130032
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2021 05:16 PM by slhNavy91.)
12-28-2021 05:13 PM
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ArmoredUpKnight Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
Cincy is pretty much bailing out the conference financially now.

Making the CFP is $6 mil
Making the NY6 is $4 mil
Not making the NY6 would mean your in a lower tier $1-2 mil

Cincy making the CFP is a $4-5 mil swing from not making the NY6 at all.

So even though we lost bowl revenue from games cancelled, its about the same as the AAC not making the NY6 or CFP.

2021 payout will look more like 2016's payout
12-29-2021 10:04 AM
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slhNavy91 Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
(12-29-2021 10:04 AM)ArmoredUpKnight Wrote:  Cincy is pretty much bailing out the conference financially now.

Making the CFP is $6 mil
Making the NY6 is $4 mil
Not making the NY6 would mean your in a lower tier $1-2 mil

Cincy making the CFP is a $4-5 mil swing from not making the NY6 at all.

So even though we lost bowl revenue from games cancelled, its about the same as the AAC not making the NY6 or CFP.

2021 payout will look more like 2016's payout

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

CFP payout to the AAC will look like $27 million this season. Even losing $2.6 million in revenue from the cancelled bowls, there is still $1.5 million in revenue from the other three bowls. In 2016, when WMU got the NY6 slot, the AAC's CFP payout was $20 million, and our other bowl payouts in 2016 were around $4.5 million.
And our primary media rights deal is triple or quadruple what it was in 2016.
12-29-2021 11:17 AM
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ArmoredUpKnight Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
(12-29-2021 11:17 AM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  
(12-29-2021 10:04 AM)ArmoredUpKnight Wrote:  Cincy is pretty much bailing out the conference financially now.

Making the CFP is $6 mil
Making the NY6 is $4 mil
Not making the NY6 would mean your in a lower tier $1-2 mil

Cincy making the CFP is a $4-5 mil swing from not making the NY6 at all.

So even though we lost bowl revenue from games cancelled, its about the same as the AAC not making the NY6 or CFP.

2021 payout will look more like 2016's payout

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

CFP payout to the AAC will look like $27 million this season. Even losing $2.6 million in revenue from the cancelled bowls, there is still $1.5 million in revenue from the other three bowls. In 2016, when WMU got the NY6 slot, the AAC's CFP payout was $20 million, and our other bowl payouts in 2016 were around $4.5 million.
And our primary media rights deal is triple or quadruple what it was in 2016.

Losing 1 or 2 lower tier bowls is fine because we still have the big money bowl.

ECU/Memphis/SMU will be fine because we share bowl revenue and the expenses will be covered because of the massive Semifinal payout of $6 mil. Thank you Cincy!
(This post was last modified: 12-29-2021 12:34 PM by ArmoredUpKnight.)
12-29-2021 12:32 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
I guess all of this poses the question of what can be done to make a more financially lucrative post season for teams not participating in the CFP.

My thoughts are a series of 4 team tournaments in major tourist destinations—Orlando, Miami, Tampa, San Antonio, Las Vegas, San Diego, LA, Hawaii, etc. cut out some of the obscure, hard to travel to places and create a more attractive vacation experience for fans.
12-31-2021 03:11 PM
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Atlanta Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
Did you folks see the attendance at the Gator Bowl today? Maybe 5000 in attendance. Pitiful.
12-31-2021 07:38 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: Payouts for Cancelled Bowls?
(12-31-2021 07:38 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  Did you folks see the attendance at the Gator Bowl today? Maybe 5000 in attendance. Pitiful.

Yes, felt bad for the Gator Bowl. Venerable old bowl stuck with a turkey game because of the virus.

It will bounce back.

OTOH, the Gasparilla Bowl, which traditionally has terrible attendance, was sold out. Matchups matter.
01-01-2022 06:45 AM
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