(07-23-2021 04:35 PM)appst89 Wrote:  

(07-23-2021 04:10 PM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  

(07-23-2021 03:20 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(07-23-2021 11:41 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Yeah Putin! The enemy our liberal European allies is my friend… an authoritarian Russian dictator.

Well its no surprise to anyone that one of the dumbest and most simple minded posters on the board missed the entire point of the thread.

Putins's authoritarian power and influence is going to grow in eastern Europe because of the regressive liberal madness.

Putin embraces Russian collectivism, which is inherently liberal. He denounces American slavery, racism & Native American genocide, yet still appeals to social conservatives in this country who continually manage to excuse them. Putin tailors his message to his target, and right now, he’s thinking about making a run for the White House in 2024 as the GOP’s candidate… so guess whose in the crosshairs

Putin’s influence will grow because we’ve proven to be an unreliable ally & capable, if the wrong candidate wins, of turning our backs on our traditional European allies. The damage Trump created will be longstanding.

You truly live in some bizarre alternate universe. I just hope I never have to occupy it with you.

It's beyond bizarre .

(07-23-2021 02:36 PM)No2rdame Wrote:  

(07-23-2021 01:36 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

Marc Mensa Wrote:Yeah Putin! The enemy our liberal European allies is my friend… an authoritarian Russian dictator.

You consider Putin to be your friend? Curious. Although perhaps not. Now that Biden is letting Putin have that new pipeline into Europe, I guess some people have gotten over their Russia-hysteria of recent years.

Marc Mensa Wrote:[Putin] knows exactly how to create allegiance with American conservatives who bizarrely view him more favorably than they do Joe Biden.

“Allegiance” between Vladimir Putin and “American conservatives”? Explain.

Since Putin is, in fact, a ruthless and cunning anti-American gangster/dictator with blood on his hands, the feelings I have towards him are extreme caution, suspicion, and distrust, rather than “allegiance”.

At the same time, some things are true, even if Vladimir Putin says them. And Putin will be viewed “more favorably” than Biden by pretty much anyone who prefers strength to weakness, or who prefers clarity to mush. But such preferences pretty much exclude Joe Biden and his supporters.

Quote:This country is in a f’d up place.

So true. In fact, that’s putting it mildly.

Just ignore menstrual. He talks out of his @ss so much when he farts, he responds and tries to argue with it.

Are you saying we need our own Putin? As an authoritarian dictator, he really answers to no one and is provided far more leeway than an American President saddled with 2 other co-equal branches of government. Strong is very important, so would 1 branch be easier?

As much as people here hate him, and hate this fact, Putin is elected democratically. What hate about him is his popularity and his success..

American democracy doesn't even meet its own standards, let alone the standards it expects others to hold to. If Russians were poorer than ever, and not sitting with incomes that have increased 10 fold over when Putin came into power, I might also be inclined to believe he is authoritarian. But when you're genuinely popular, you don't have to be.

Russians love Putin. The few western educated Muscovites and the billionaires who want to go back to the Yelstin era are the most hated people on the country.

Russians had their chance to be like Americans, and they said no thanks.

(07-23-2021 05:46 PM)Todor Wrote:  As much as people here hate him, and hate this fact, Putin is elected democratically.

Wait, what? When did that happen?

Quote:What [we] hate about him is his popularity and his success.

I would view him as an American enemy regardless of whatever popularity he might have and whatever success he might have. I do question how you can effectively measure his “popularity” in a country that does not have any bona-fide elections, at least not where Putin’s power is at stake.

Quote:American democracy doesn't even meet its own standards, let alone the standards it expects others to hold to.

True. So what? … but, true.

Quote:If Russians were poorer than ever, and not sitting with incomes that have increased 10 fold over when Putin came into power, I might also be inclined to believe he is authoritarian.

Sometimes, authoritarians are able to improve the economy. There is really no contradiction there, at all. The Chilean economy thrived under Pinochet, for example. And the South Korean economy did, too, under the non-democratic regimes of the 1950s-1980s. Many other examples besides those.

Quote:Russians love Putin. The few western educated Muscovites and the billionaires who want to go back to the Yelstin era are the most hated people on the country.

You are conflating two separate points here. First, I ask how you (or anyone) can know what popular opinion is in Russia these days. Second, I agree the Yeltsin era was a time of chaos and impoverishment that no sane person would want to experience.

Quote:Russians had their chance to be like Americans, and they said no thanks.

I disagree that Russians were ever given such a “chance”, although even without having the chance, I am sure they would prefer to remain Russian rather than become American. I wouldn’t blame them for that at all.

(07-23-2021 11:41 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Yeah Putin! The enemy our liberal European allies is my friend… an authoritarian Russian dictator.

Yep, just like the ones in Cuba that the Socialist/Communists in the Demoncraptic Party are trying to emulate.

You are such a putz, you have them in your midst and yet you're blind to them. You just like, no love, to be a hypocrite. Just because Pootey Poot Poot is putting the PC crowd in their place doesn't mean we accept the way he rules. He knows you can't change everyone by decree, unlike the Demons who are trying.

You PUTZ.

Putin is a worthy enemy. Unfortunately, we are no longer his worthy enemy. That pipeline in Germany is massive and is going to establish him and give him even more influence in a lot of Europe.

(07-23-2021 06:31 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(07-23-2021 05:46 PM)Todor Wrote:  As much as people here hate him, and hate this fact, Putin is elected democratically.

Wait, what? When did that happen?

Quote:What [we] hate about him is his popularity and his success.

I would view him as an American enemy regardless of whatever popularity he might have and whatever success he might have. I do question how you can effectively measure his “popularity” in a country that does not have any bona-fide elections, at least not where Putin’s power is at stake.

Quote:American democracy doesn't even meet its own standards, let alone the standards it expects others to hold to.

True. So what? … but, true.

Quote:If Russians were poorer than ever, and not sitting with incomes that have increased 10 fold over when Putin came into power, I might also be inclined to believe he is authoritarian.

Sometimes, authoritarians are able to improve the economy. There is really no contradiction there, at all. The Chilean economy thrived under Pinochet, for example. And the South Korean economy did, too, under the non-democratic regimes of the 1950s-1980s. Many other examples besides those.

Quote:Russians love Putin. The few western educated Muscovites and the billionaires who want to go back to the Yelstin era are the most hated people on the country.

You are conflating two separate points here. First, I ask how you (or anyone) can know what popular opinion is in Russia these days. Second, I agree the Yeltsin era was a time of chaos and impoverishment that no sane person would want to experience.

Quote:Russians had their chance to be like Americans, and they said no thanks.

I disagree that Russians were ever given such a “chance”, although even without having the chance, I am sure they would prefer to remain Russian rather than become American. I wouldn’t blame them for that at all.

Russia turned to the west earnestly for help to become democratic and capitalist. Instead of helping them, the Americans robbed them blind, screwed them, gave them the worst possible advice on purpose and set the whole country up to be hostages to American "advisors" whims, when said "advisors" were profiting massively on a personal level. They tried to set up a system where NOTHING in Russia was under any Russian control at all anymore.

American and western pollsters do HUGE amounts of work in Russia and the former Soviet countries and their findings largely mirror local Russian opinion polls.

Americans can claim the elections weren't fair, but only because they don't like the results. In other words, Americans hate democracy if Russians (and others) elect who they actually like, if Americans don't control that person. Americans see it as a failure if the citizens of other countries actually have a choice to make.

No good candidates other than the Communists even run because it's a hopeless cause when the sitting g president has massive support.

He's no more authoritarian than the US system is authoritarian. Either way, neither are ever challenged in any meaningful way. Except Putin is popular, and belief in the US system is at rock bottom levels.

(07-23-2021 08:10 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(07-23-2021 06:31 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(07-23-2021 05:46 PM)Todor Wrote:  Russians had their chance to be like Americans, and they said no thanks.

I disagree that Russians were ever given such a “chance”, although even without having the chance, I am sure they would prefer to remain Russian rather than become American. I wouldn’t blame them for that at all.

Russia turned to the west earnestly for help to become democratic and capitalist. Instead of helping them, the Americans robbed them blind, screwed them, gave them the worst possible advice on purpose and set the whole country up to be hostages to American "advisors" whims, when said "advisors" were profiting massively on a personal level. They tried to set up a system where NOTHING in Russia was under any Russian control at all anymore.

As a brief summary of Russian history between Gorbachev and Putin, I agree with that ^^^. But that is hardly the same thing as a “chance to be like Americans.”

Quote:American and western pollsters do HUGE amounts of work in Russia and the former Soviet countries and their findings largely mirror local Russian opinion polls.

I’m frankly skeptical of the work most American political pollsters do *in* *America*. And I have a lot less faith in their ability to accurately measure public opinion beyond our borders.

Without getting into detail, I’ll simply state my belief that people in Russia are not really free to express dissenting views — with some carefully staged and “approved” exceptions — and they rarely do so to people they feel safe with, much less to Americans who may be working (knowingly or not) for Putin, Putin’s allies, and/or the type of scam-artist “advisors” who inflicted such damage (as you correctly described) in the 1990s.

(07-23-2021 07:42 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  Putin is a worthy enemy. Unfortunately, we are no longer his worthy enemy. That pipeline in Germany is massive and is going to establish him and give him even more influence in a lot of Europe.

This.

+3 for a remarkably concise and accurate description of the status quo.

(07-23-2021 09:04 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(07-23-2021 08:10 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(07-23-2021 06:31 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(07-23-2021 05:46 PM)Todor Wrote:  Russians had their chance to be like Americans, and they said no thanks.

I disagree that Russians were ever given such a “chance”, although even without having the chance, I am sure they would prefer to remain Russian rather than become American. I wouldn’t blame them for that at all.

Russia turned to the west earnestly for help to become democratic and capitalist. Instead of helping them, the Americans robbed them blind, screwed them, gave them the worst possible advice on purpose and set the whole country up to be hostages to American "advisors" whims, when said "advisors" were profiting massively on a personal level. They tried to set up a system where NOTHING in Russia was under any Russian control at all anymore.

As a brief summary of Russian history between Gorbachev and Putin, I agree with that ^^^. But that is hardly the same thing as a “chance to be like Americans.”

Quote:American and western pollsters do HUGE amounts of work in Russia and the former Soviet countries and their findings largely mirror local Russian opinion polls.

I’m frankly skeptical of the work most American political pollsters do *in* *America*. And I have a lot less faith in their ability to accurately measure public opinion beyond our borders.

Without getting into detail, I’ll simply state my belief that people in Russia are not really free to express dissenting views — with some carefully staged and “approved” exceptions — and they rarely do so to people they feel safe with, much less to Americans who may be working (knowingly or not) for Putin, Putin’s allies, and/or the type of scam-artist “advisors” who inflicted such damage (as you correctly described) in the 1990s.

I largely agree with you. But I will add, the choice between what they had in 2 previous governments, which was an extremely oppressed and Spartan existence. Add in a civil war and massive terrorism in the early Putin era, which he ended, the relative calm and prosperity for the vast majority of people is enough to keep them from being too opposed to what they currently have.

That may change over time, but it does take time. And while I agree, Putin does take a tough stance on certain individuals, I do feel most of them are not out to benefit Russia or other Russians, but strictly themselves.

Anyone who ran to the West to live, work, study, and who knows what is suspect in the average Russians mind. As "oppressed" as those individuals may feel, democracy or not, they are not electable to any position. They are held in extremely low regard.

It appears to be very beneficial to Russia to build on their current stability. Its an easing in to a more open society, one that will likely develop more organically than a shock to the system transition.

While far from perfect, many things work pretty well in Russia. Busses and trains operate, streets are cleared of snow, garbage is picked up, civil servants make decent wages, infrastructure is improving, hospitals operate normally and have the supplies they need to function, industries that were once prominent, and died in the 90's, are being revived and expanded, foreign investment has expanded opportunities, internet and cell phones are universal, Russia now has a well developed and solid banking sector and a stock exchange which is considered safe and transparent enough for foreigners to widely use to invest...

You get my point. A lot has been accomplished, largely from scratch, and it hasn't been easy or a sure thing. Various types of corruption exist in most countries, and to accomplish many of these things, I'd imagine some various sides had to be coaxed to the table. And while that's not ideal, sometimes creating stability out of total lawlessness isn't easy. And total lawless chaos and complete societal collapse was what Putin inherited. To Russian people, that's preferable to things they never imagined having to endure.

Russians have always been loathe to share their opinions on certain matters publicly, so (possibly) not being able to do so is a fair trade off for food, a job, water, heat, medicine, roads etc.