(01-21-2021 07:53 AM)nole Wrote:  

(01-20-2021 02:45 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(01-19-2021 06:07 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 08:57 PM)Statefan Wrote:  When your former AD, Paul Dee, and NC State's AD was working with Gene Corrigan and Miami, Miami wanted to include BC and Syracuse. You wanted Miami and the ACC accommodated you and ESPN paid for it. Then FSU went into the tank and Miami never showed up and for half a decade the league banner is being carried by WF, BC, VT, and GT. Pitt and Syracuse were added to get ND and Penn State but MD backstabbed us.

You joined what had become a basketball conference. That allowed you to dominate the league and get an annual pass into a major bowl or play for a national championship. How many people will sit in the stands in Tallahassee if you are 8-4 in the SEC versus 10-2 in the ACC? How many SEC games do you think you would have won this year? You play in the P-5 conference that is the most inexpensive to compete in - even in the SEC you will suck hind teat behind Bama, Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, LSU, and TAMU when it comes to attendance because you need fans travelling to Doak to fill it up. That's not meant as an insult, just a mathematical fact.

You talk as if the added revenue comes free. It's not free. Operations that look only at income and not cost usually go broke. If money cured bad hires or stupid decisions Texas would not be on their 4th coach in 10 years.

If you and Miami had your programs in Clemson's shape, Swofford would have something better to pimp. But NC State will never raise and spend the extra $30 - $40 million a year to reach that level. Hiding a stupid football player at UNC is no longer easy. Duke and UVa drift further and further away from football culture every year. GT, Pitt, and BC will not thrive on a consistent basis in pro towns.

You have the best of all worlds right now and the ACC nor your revenue is responsible for the product on your field the last couple of years.

Had this plan been successful, Swofford would be hailed as a hero, and the ACC would have been on the same dollar footing as the B1G and the SEC.
The plan was not successful and the ACC will be lucky to be 20% behind dollar wise even with a full time Notre Dame and will not completely dominate the east coast.
There was no other path to equality.

The wishful-thinking that ND and PSU would join, and then everything would be fine is delusional. UMCP may have backstabbed the ACC strategy, but the Terrapins also had an incompetent athletics department that did the ACC a huge favor by leaving. The Terps had become lazy, free-riders hanging onto the coattails (Ohio State and Michigan are better able to support this approach). I was a huge Maryland Terrapins fan growing-up, but they can’t just continue to live by the memories of Jerry Claiborne and Bobby Ross teams.

College athletics has become a big business, and schools need to keep-up with the transformation. Fan attendance, TV viewership and OOC wins by ACC football teams needs to be the focus. Viewership was actually relatively strong this year. If ND and PSU want to join the ACC, that will be a bonus. More importantly, we need more of the existing schools to compete for national attention in football.

Regardless of how ND and PSU acted, Swafford can’t be considered successful. Commissioners negotiate media contracts...the ACC had the highest media distribution when he started, it now has the 4th or 5th highest.

Correct.

When FSU joined the ACC, they had a higher payout than the SEC by $1 million a year. Now about to be behind by $40-$70 Million per year per team.

He was a god awful commissioner that will get the blame (rightfully so) when the ACC breaks apart at some point in the next 15 years.

The ACC isnt going to break apart in the next 15 years. That's ridiculous..

The ACC did exactly what the SEC, B1G and even PAC did....they expanded to get tv sets in order to strengthen its ability to start/grow a conference network.

(01-21-2021 05:44 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(01-20-2021 02:45 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(01-19-2021 06:07 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 08:57 PM)Statefan Wrote:  When your former AD, Paul Dee, and NC State's AD was working with Gene Corrigan and Miami, Miami wanted to include BC and Syracuse. You wanted Miami and the ACC accommodated you and ESPN paid for it. Then FSU went into the tank and Miami never showed up and for half a decade the league banner is being carried by WF, BC, VT, and GT. Pitt and Syracuse were added to get ND and Penn State but MD backstabbed us.

You joined what had become a basketball conference. That allowed you to dominate the league and get an annual pass into a major bowl or play for a national championship. How many people will sit in the stands in Tallahassee if you are 8-4 in the SEC versus 10-2 in the ACC? How many SEC games do you think you would have won this year? You play in the P-5 conference that is the most inexpensive to compete in - even in the SEC you will suck hind teat behind Bama, Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, LSU, and TAMU when it comes to attendance because you need fans travelling to Doak to fill it up. That's not meant as an insult, just a mathematical fact.

You talk as if the added revenue comes free. It's not free. Operations that look only at income and not cost usually go broke. If money cured bad hires or stupid decisions Texas would not be on their 4th coach in 10 years.

If you and Miami had your programs in Clemson's shape, Swofford would have something better to pimp. But NC State will never raise and spend the extra $30 - $40 million a year to reach that level. Hiding a stupid football player at UNC is no longer easy. Duke and UVa drift further and further away from football culture every year. GT, Pitt, and BC will not thrive on a consistent basis in pro towns.

You have the best of all worlds right now and the ACC nor your revenue is responsible for the product on your field the last couple of years.

Had this plan been successful, Swofford would be hailed as a hero, and the ACC would have been on the same dollar footing as the B1G and the SEC.
The plan was not successful and the ACC will be lucky to be 20% behind dollar wise even with a full time Notre Dame and will not completely dominate the east coast.
There was no other path to equality.

The wishful-thinking that ND and PSU would join, and then everything would be fine is delusional. UMCP may have backstabbed the ACC strategy, but the Terrapins also had an incompetent athletics department that did the ACC a huge favor by leaving. The Terps had become lazy, free-riders hanging onto the coattails (Ohio State and Michigan are better able to support this approach). I was a huge Maryland Terrapins fan growing-up, but they can’t just continue to live by the memories of Jerry Claiborne and Bobby Ross teams.

College athletics has become a big business, and schools need to keep-up with the transformation. Fan attendance, TV viewership and OOC wins by ACC football teams needs to be the focus. Viewership was actually relatively strong this year. If ND and PSU want to join the ACC, that will be a bonus. More importantly, we need more of the existing schools to compete for national attention in football.

Regardless of how ND and PSU acted, Swafford can’t be considered successful. Commissioners negotiate media contracts...the ACC had the highest media distribution when he started, it now has the 4th or 5th highest.

The ACC was way ahead of it's time.
CD Chesley cobbled a few television station network together to broadcast North Carolina's incredible 1957 NCAA basketball championship run and the ACC television network was born. Management of that network was passed from Chesley to Jefferson-Pilot and then to RayCom. That ACC taught ESPN how to broadcast college athletics (and for years the ACC network broadcasts were far superior to what ESPN could put on the air and as such the Conference demanded dual broadcasts of important games and the ACC tournament for years).
Swofford is successful, because the ACC is still here, and will still be here well into the future.
Being able to secure a long term contract, and a linear network with a league whose average attendance was under 50,000 while competing with two conferences that could basically double those numbers is remarkable.

Your own statement makes my point: “Swofford is successful, because the ACC is still here, and will still be here well into the future.” You’re setting the goalpost as if survival was his biggest challenge...and the ACC has survived.

Your statement should be edited to say: Swofford is barely acceptable, because the ACC is still here, and will still be here well into the future.

Yet when Gene Corrigan and Bob James led the ACC no one questioned the conference’s viability. FSU (the conference’s current marquee program) choose the ACC over the SEC...30 years later, I don’t believe that that decision would necessarily be repeated. Corrigan understood the importance of football and TV...he was blind-sided by PSU’s jump to the B10 and focused on fixing the ACC’s weaknesses.

Swofford has negotiated and signed atrocious revenue-generating contracts. Rather than leveraging longstanding partnerships with the SEC in order to enhance the football revenue, he contracted for an inferior Orange Bowl arrangement. Rather than exploiting the unique connections (by UNC, Syracuse, etc alums) with ESPN powers-that-be, he got consistently rolled in his deal-making. Relative to his contemporaries (e.g., Delaney and Slive), he was completely lacking in foresight and skill.

(01-21-2021 05:44 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(01-20-2021 02:45 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  ...Swafford can’t be considered successful. Commissioners negotiate media contracts...the ACC had the highest media distribution when he started, it now has the 4th or 5th highest.

The ACC was way ahead of it's time.
CD Chesley cobbled a few television station network together to broadcast North Carolina's incredible 1957 NCAA basketball championship run and the ACC television network was born...

Yes, the ACC WAS ahead of its time in 1957. Not sure what that has to do with Swofford, who didn't become commissioner until July 1, 1997. Also, Syracuse won the national championship in football in 1959. Again, I'm not sure that's relevant today.

Wahoo - I don't know how old you are. Based on your knowledge base you sound like you are less than 40. I mean you no slight but I am nearly 60 and get part of my "inside" information from people like Bill Friday and Bill Cobey. I am a NC State because me father took me to basketball games where I met David Thompson, Tommy Burleson, Monte Towe, Norm Sloan, etc. I met them at the locker room after the game. Then I was a student at NC State where I was lucky to know Jim Valvano, I attended UNC, and Duke as well. My wife has worked or does now work at UNC, State, and Duke. I have taught at VT. I have paid ******* tuition at WF for one of my children. In this strange, compact world, I don't have to press people like Debbie Yow for info. I don't have to press Chancellors or Presidents. I have had the unique pleasurer of attending classes with both Carolina's and NC State's dumbest basketball player.

Swofford is a pimp. Nothing more, nothing less. He pimps what he has to sell. He "hates" NC State for three reasons - 1. Our Chancellor embarrassed him in 2003 and made him out as a liar to Syracuse. (He can forgive Duke and UNC) 2. He is a UNC/UVa man. 3. Most of all NC State gutted it's sports programs in 1990 and they have never fully recovered. He can't pimp us. Pimping value is what he values. As far as Raycom goes, the ptb at UNC, Duke, WF, UVa, NC State, and MD were wedded to Raycom as was their *** **** right. Was it an incestous family thing - yes, but the family is/was wider than you realize.

Duke University cut ACC football throat in 1962. It took 15 years for the ACC to claw its way back. As soon as Clemson won the National Title, they were caught making cash payments. They kind of cash payments that you have to make if you wanted to win back in the early 80's. The same payments that Georgia, Auburn, Alabama, and TN made. They drew an NCAA and an ACC probation. The ACC probation last longer because no one at Clemson appealed the action by the ACC committee who handled the league side of things. No sooner than Ford was run off Len Bias died of a coccain overdose and UM gutted it's programs. Sweaty Gary's on NCAA title does not compare to Lefty's program. No football coach matched Ross and the downward socioeconomic/sports spiral started at MD that has not abated. At the same time MD was politically beholden and ego beholden to continue funding non revenue programs also carried by UVa and UNC and Duke. Sweaty Gary quit recruiting and started hanging out a student parties allowing suggestive photos of him to be be taken. Fridge reneged on his retirement causing them to loose James Franklin. I won't attempt to get into the deep racial and political issues at UM, but they have been there since the graduate programs were moved to Baltimore in 1970.

Swofford was not a genius or a ninja. But he did work with what he had. The big mistake was not going to market for bids before Bobby Bowden got too old at FSU and before it was figured out that Miami was past it's superstar status. He could not do anything about MD because the MD System Chancellor and former Ohio State President had already decided to move MD and use the cover of the Big 10 to also attempt take over all other UM units and put them under UMCP. By quirk of timing I got to hear part of VT's President take on being lied to by Kirwan although the one most undercut just retired from Wake Forest.

Blaming Swofford for things that the Presidents and Chancellors did is foolish. The Big 10 AD did not bring PSU to the Big 10. Illinois' President did that.

If you pick a convenient scapegoat, you learn nothing. You understand nothing. You are apt to repeat the same mistake.

(01-21-2021 11:54 AM)Statefan Wrote:  Wahoo - I don't know how old you are. Based on your knowledge base you sound like you are less than 40. I mean you no slight but I am nearly 60 and get part of my "inside" information from people like Bill Friday and Bill Cobey. I am a NC State because me father took me to basketball games where I met David Thompson, Tommy Burleson, Monte Towe, Norm Sloan, etc. I met them at the locker room after the game. Then I was a student at NC State where I was lucky to know Jim Valvano, I attended UNC, and Duke as well. My wife has worked or does now work at UNC, State, and Duke. I have taught at VT. I have paid ******* tuition at WF for one of my children. In this strange, compact world, I don't have to press people like Debbie Yow for info. I don't have to press Chancellors or Presidents. I have had the unique pleasurer of attending classes with both Carolina's and NC State's dumbest basketball player.

Swofford is a pimp. Nothing more, nothing less. He pimps what he has to sell. He "hates" NC State for three reasons - 1. Our Chancellor embarrassed him in 2003 and made him out as a liar to Syracuse. (He can forgive Duke and UNC) 2. He is a UNC/UVa man. 3. Most of all NC State gutted it's sports programs in 1990 and they have never fully recovered. He can't pimp us. Pimping value is what he values. As far as Raycom goes, the ptb at UNC, Duke, WF, UVa, NC State, and MD were wedded to Raycom as was their *** **** right. Was it an incestous family thing - yes, but the family is/was wider than you realize.

Duke University cut ACC football throat in 1962. It took 15 years for the ACC to claw its way back. As soon as Clemson won the National Title, they were caught making cash payments. They kind of cash payments that you have to make if you wanted to win back in the early 80's. The same payments that Georgia, Auburn, Alabama, and TN made. They drew an NCAA and an ACC probation. The ACC probation last longer because no one at Clemson appealed the action by the ACC committee who handled the league side of things. No sooner than Ford was run off Len Bias died of a coccain overdose and UM gutted it's programs. Sweaty Gary's on NCAA title does not compare to Lefty's program. No football coach matched Ross and the downward socioeconomic/sports spiral started at MD that has not abated. At the same time MD was politically beholden and ego beholden to continue funding non revenue programs also carried by UVa and UNC and Duke. Sweaty Gary quit recruiting and started hanging out a student parties allowing suggestive photos of him to be be taken. Fridge reneged on his retirement causing them to loose James Franklin. I won't attempt to get into the deep racial and political issues at UM, but they have been there since the graduate programs were moved to Baltimore in 1970.

Swofford was not a genius or a ninja. But he did work with what he had. The big mistake was not going to market for bids before Bobby Bowden got too old at FSU and before it was figured out that Miami was past it's superstar status. He could not do anything about MD because the MD System Chancellor and former Ohio State President had already decided to move MD and use the cover of the Big 10 to also attempt take over all other UM units and put them under UMCP. By quirk of timing I got to hear part of VT's President take on being lied to by Kirwan although the one most undercut just retired from Wake Forest.

Blaming Swofford for things that the Presidents and Chancellors did is foolish. The Big 10 AD did not bring PSU to the Big 10. Illinois' President did that.

If you pick a convenient scapegoat, you learn nothing. You understand nothing. You are apt to repeat the same mistake.

State fan - If it makes any difference, I’m 58 years old (graduated from UVA in 1984)...about your age.

Obviously Swofford “work[ed] with what he had”, everyone does. My contention is that he has not been a good commissioner for the ACC. For example, Delaney was an excellent commissioner because he had foresight to advocate for his own TV network that created a first-mover financial bonanza; Slive was a very good commissioner because he convinced SEC members to collaborate and drive for the common conference well-being. At best, Swofford has been a care-taker who way over-stayed his usefulness by about 15 years.

Conference commissioners are hired to generate revenue. Football and media are the two disciplines that he needed to master, but he’s further behind today than he was 25 years ago. In business school marketing terminology, Swofford can be classified somewhere between a late-adopter or laggard...while the ACC needed an innovator or early-adopter to keep pace in revenue generation. You whine about athletic self-destruction at NC State and Maryland...but where were the commissioner’s best practices efforts from the well-healed programs.

To be specific about my second guessing of Swafford’s actions...
1) He should have more forcefully promoted a football conference championship game much earlier than 2005 (although Miami was the key school)
2) He should have focused on football culture, rather than TV markets, in the first expansion (although Mark Warner saved him from himself & ESPN)
3) He should have battled the NCAA for a greater share of revenue from Tournament wins (for goodness sakes...he could have better leveraged the hoops success of UNC, Duke, Maryland, Syracuse, Louisville and Virginia)
4) He should have made the conference more appealing to genuine football brands (e.g., Notre Dame, PSU, Florida and UGA)
5) He should not have bundled all TV rights in one contract (the financial advantages of diversification are well understood in all businesses; and by all other P5 conferences)
6) He should not have signed such a long-term media rights contract in 2012 (the ACC’s value & leverage were at a historic low)

We could continue, but it would get too depressing. Swofford is hardly a victim...he has a competent army helping him generate revenue. He started his tenure with a strong hand and played the game for 24 years...being well compensated for his work.

(01-21-2021 01:11 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(01-21-2021 11:54 AM)Statefan Wrote:  Wahoo - I don't know how old you are. Based on your knowledge base you sound like you are less than 40. I mean you no slight but I am nearly 60 and get part of my "inside" information from people like Bill Friday and Bill Cobey. I am a NC State because me father took me to basketball games where I met David Thompson, Tommy Burleson, Monte Towe, Norm Sloan, etc. I met them at the locker room after the game. Then I was a student at NC State where I was lucky to know Jim Valvano, I attended UNC, and Duke as well. My wife has worked or does now work at UNC, State, and Duke. I have taught at VT. I have paid ******* tuition at WF for one of my children. In this strange, compact world, I don't have to press people like Debbie Yow for info. I don't have to press Chancellors or Presidents. I have had the unique pleasurer of attending classes with both Carolina's and NC State's dumbest basketball player.

Swofford is a pimp. Nothing more, nothing less. He pimps what he has to sell. He "hates" NC State for three reasons - 1. Our Chancellor embarrassed him in 2003 and made him out as a liar to Syracuse. (He can forgive Duke and UNC) 2. He is a UNC/UVa man. 3. Most of all NC State gutted it's sports programs in 1990 and they have never fully recovered. He can't pimp us. Pimping value is what he values. As far as Raycom goes, the ptb at UNC, Duke, WF, UVa, NC State, and MD were wedded to Raycom as was their *** **** right. Was it an incestous family thing - yes, but the family is/was wider than you realize.

Duke University cut ACC football throat in 1962. It took 15 years for the ACC to claw its way back. As soon as Clemson won the National Title, they were caught making cash payments. They kind of cash payments that you have to make if you wanted to win back in the early 80's. The same payments that Georgia, Auburn, Alabama, and TN made. They drew an NCAA and an ACC probation. The ACC probation last longer because no one at Clemson appealed the action by the ACC committee who handled the league side of things. No sooner than Ford was run off Len Bias died of a coccain overdose and UM gutted it's programs. Sweaty Gary's on NCAA title does not compare to Lefty's program. No football coach matched Ross and the downward socioeconomic/sports spiral started at MD that has not abated. At the same time MD was politically beholden and ego beholden to continue funding non revenue programs also carried by UVa and UNC and Duke. Sweaty Gary quit recruiting and started hanging out a student parties allowing suggestive photos of him to be be taken. Fridge reneged on his retirement causing them to loose James Franklin. I won't attempt to get into the deep racial and political issues at UM, but they have been there since the graduate programs were moved to Baltimore in 1970.

Swofford was not a genius or a ninja. But he did work with what he had. The big mistake was not going to market for bids before Bobby Bowden got too old at FSU and before it was figured out that Miami was past it's superstar status. He could not do anything about MD because the MD System Chancellor and former Ohio State President had already decided to move MD and use the cover of the Big 10 to also attempt take over all other UM units and put them under UMCP. By quirk of timing I got to hear part of VT's President take on being lied to by Kirwan although the one most undercut just retired from Wake Forest.

Blaming Swofford for things that the Presidents and Chancellors did is foolish. The Big 10 AD did not bring PSU to the Big 10. Illinois' President did that.

If you pick a convenient scapegoat, you learn nothing. You understand nothing. You are apt to repeat the same mistake.

State fan - If it makes any difference, I’m 58 years old (graduated from UVA in 1984)...about your age.

Obviously Swofford “work[ed] with what he had”, everyone does. My contention is that he has not been a good commissioner for the ACC. For example, Delaney was an excellent commissioner because he had foresight to advocate for his own TV network that created a first-mover financial bonanza; Slive was a very good commissioner because he convinced SEC members to collaborate and drive for the common conference well-being. At best, Swofford has been a care-taker who way over-stayed his usefulness by about 15 years.

Conference commissioners are hired to generate revenue. Football and media are the two disciplines that he needed to master, but he’s further behind today than he was 25 years ago. In business school marketing terminology, Swofford can be classified somewhere between a late-adopter or laggard...while the ACC needed an innovator or early-adopter to keep pace in revenue generation. You whine about athletic self-destruction at NC State and Maryland...but where were the commissioner’s best practices efforts from the well-healed programs.

To be specific about my second guessing of Swafford’s actions...
1) He should have more forcefully promoted a football conference championship game much earlier than 2005 (although Miami was the key school)
2) He should have focused on football culture, rather than TV markets, in the first expansion (although Mark Warner saved him from himself & ESPN)
3) He should have battled the NCAA for a greater share of revenue from Tournament wins (for goodness sakes...he could have better leveraged the hoops success of UNC, Duke, Maryland, Syracuse, Louisville and Virginia)
4) He should have made the conference more appealing to genuine football brands (e.g., Notre Dame, PSU, Florida and UGA)
5) He should not have bundled all TV rights in one contract (the financial advantages of diversification are well understood in all businesses; and by all other P5 conferences)
6) He should not have signed such a long-term media rights contract in 2012 (the ACC’s value & leverage were at a historic low)

We could continue, but it would get too depressing. Swofford is hardly a victim...he has a competent army helping him generate revenue. He started his tenure with a strong hand and played the game for 24 years...being well compensated for his work.

Swofford did exactly what he was hired to do.
The ACC is not and was not the B1G or the SEC and did not operate like either of those two conferences.

Listening to all this defense of Swofford makes me wonder what exactly we were paying him over $3m a year for.

(01-21-2021 01:26 PM)XLance Wrote:  The ACC is not and was not the B1G or the SEC and did not operate like either of those two conferences.

I think that's part of the point. Simply going along with what Slive and Delaney wanted to do virtually guaranteed that the ACC would fall behind. Yet, for all his schmoozing, golfing, etc., Swofford never successfully led any changes which weren't championed by one of the big two.

About the only "innovative" thing you can say he did was to sell all tv rights as a bundle to ESPN, a move which was clearly a mistake - and clear to see from the start. Signing such a long-term contract was simply lazy - he knew the value of those ACC rights were down when he signed the 2010 contract, so why wasn't it for 4 years so he could renegotiate?

Slive and Delaney also had internal politics to deal with, but they convinced their conference presidents to pull together for the greater good - and bigger TV contracts. Swofford just let Tobacco Road ramrod Raycom into the TV contracts. That's lazy and complicit.

You can say your school is fine if you want, but if nothing is done (and it may be too late already), every school in the ACC is at risk of becoming just as irrelevant as the American Athletic Conference you guys seem to disdain. UNC could become ECU, with smaller crowds. UVA could become Temple, without the cheese steak. NC State could become Memphis, without the good music. A seat at the "big boy table" is not guaranteed.

(01-21-2021 01:11 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(01-21-2021 11:54 AM)Statefan Wrote:  Wahoo - I don't know how old you are. Based on your knowledge base you sound like you are less than 40. I mean you no slight but I am nearly 60 and get part of my "inside" information from people like Bill Friday and Bill Cobey. I am a NC State because me father took me to basketball games where I met David Thompson, Tommy Burleson, Monte Towe, Norm Sloan, etc. I met them at the locker room after the game. Then I was a student at NC State where I was lucky to know Jim Valvano, I attended UNC, and Duke as well. My wife has worked or does now work at UNC, State, and Duke. I have taught at VT. I have paid ******* tuition at WF for one of my children. In this strange, compact world, I don't have to press people like Debbie Yow for info. I don't have to press Chancellors or Presidents. I have had the unique pleasurer of attending classes with both Carolina's and NC State's dumbest basketball player.

Swofford is a pimp. Nothing more, nothing less. He pimps what he has to sell. He "hates" NC State for three reasons - 1. Our Chancellor embarrassed him in 2003 and made him out as a liar to Syracuse. (He can forgive Duke and UNC) 2. He is a UNC/UVa man. 3. Most of all NC State gutted it's sports programs in 1990 and they have never fully recovered. He can't pimp us. Pimping value is what he values. As far as Raycom goes, the ptb at UNC, Duke, WF, UVa, NC State, and MD were wedded to Raycom as was their *** **** right. Was it an incestous family thing - yes, but the family is/was wider than you realize.

Duke University cut ACC football throat in 1962. It took 15 years for the ACC to claw its way back. As soon as Clemson won the National Title, they were caught making cash payments. They kind of cash payments that you have to make if you wanted to win back in the early 80's. The same payments that Georgia, Auburn, Alabama, and TN made. They drew an NCAA and an ACC probation. The ACC probation last longer because no one at Clemson appealed the action by the ACC committee who handled the league side of things. No sooner than Ford was run off Len Bias died of a coccain overdose and UM gutted it's programs. Sweaty Gary's on NCAA title does not compare to Lefty's program. No football coach matched Ross and the downward socioeconomic/sports spiral started at MD that has not abated. At the same time MD was politically beholden and ego beholden to continue funding non revenue programs also carried by UVa and UNC and Duke. Sweaty Gary quit recruiting and started hanging out a student parties allowing suggestive photos of him to be be taken. Fridge reneged on his retirement causing them to loose James Franklin. I won't attempt to get into the deep racial and political issues at UM, but they have been there since the graduate programs were moved to Baltimore in 1970.

Swofford was not a genius or a ninja. But he did work with what he had. The big mistake was not going to market for bids before Bobby Bowden got too old at FSU and before it was figured out that Miami was past it's superstar status. He could not do anything about MD because the MD System Chancellor and former Ohio State President had already decided to move MD and use the cover of the Big 10 to also attempt take over all other UM units and put them under UMCP. By quirk of timing I got to hear part of VT's President take on being lied to by Kirwan although the one most undercut just retired from Wake Forest.

Blaming Swofford for things that the Presidents and Chancellors did is foolish. The Big 10 AD did not bring PSU to the Big 10. Illinois' President did that.

If you pick a convenient scapegoat, you learn nothing. You understand nothing. You are apt to repeat the same mistake.

State fan - If it makes any difference, I’m 58 years old (graduated from UVA in 1984)...about your age.

Obviously Swofford “work[ed] with what he had”, everyone does. My contention is that he has not been a good commissioner for the ACC. For example, Delaney was an excellent commissioner because he had foresight to advocate for his own TV network that created a first-mover financial bonanza; Slive was a very good commissioner because he convinced SEC members to collaborate and drive for the common conference well-being. At best, Swofford has been a care-taker who way over-stayed his usefulness by about 15 years.

Conference commissioners are hired to generate revenue. Football and media are the two disciplines that he needed to master, but he’s further behind today than he was 25 years ago. In business school marketing terminology, Swofford can be classified somewhere between a late-adopter or laggard...while the ACC needed an innovator or early-adopter to keep pace in revenue generation. You whine about athletic self-destruction at NC State and Maryland...but where were the commissioner’s best practices efforts from the well-healed programs.

To be specific about my second guessing of Swafford’s actions...
1) He should have more forcefully promoted a football conference championship game much earlier than 2005 (although Miami was the key school)
2) He should have focused on football culture, rather than TV markets, in the first expansion (although Mark Warner saved him from himself & ESPN)
3) He should have battled the NCAA for a greater share of revenue from Tournament wins (for goodness sakes...he could have better leveraged the hoops success of UNC, Duke, Maryland, Syracuse, Louisville and Virginia)
4) He should have made the conference more appealing to genuine football brands (e.g., Notre Dame, PSU, Florida and UGA)
5) He should not have bundled all TV rights in one contract (the financial advantages of diversification are well understood in all businesses; and by all other P5 conferences)
6) He should not have signed such a long-term media rights contract in 2012 (the ACC’s value & leverage were at a historic low)

We could continue, but it would get too depressing. Swofford is hardly a victim...he has a competent army helping him generate revenue. He started his tenure with a strong hand and played the game for 24 years...being well compensated for his work.

I have no dog in this hunt. I don't care if Swofford lives or dies, he is nothing to me, but............your #4 bullet point is not a valid one.

Penn State was never leaving the Big Ten. Florida and Georgia were never leaving the SEC.

As far as ND is concerned, there is nothing Swofford could have done between 1997 and 2019 to get ND football to join the ACC. Nothing.

He could have offered every living ND alumnus a $10,000 bonus check if ND football joined and they still would have overwhelmingly rejected the idea.

Hell, in 2020 ND was a football member, went 9-0 in conference, made the championship game, made the playoffs, won ACC Coach of the Year, multiple ACC player of the year awards and All-ACC team awards.....

.......and still will exit stage left as soon as Covid lets it.

It would have been the easiest, most seamless thing in the world for ND football to remain in the ACC, but ND has no interest in that post Covid.

Swofford likely was a poor commissioner, but I think your bullet point #4 is a complete reach.

(01-21-2021 01:26 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(01-21-2021 01:11 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(01-21-2021 11:54 AM)Statefan Wrote:  Wahoo - I don't know how old you are. Based on your knowledge base you sound like you are less than 40. I mean you no slight but I am nearly 60 and get part of my "inside" information from people like Bill Friday and Bill Cobey. I am a NC State because me father took me to basketball games where I met David Thompson, Tommy Burleson, Monte Towe, Norm Sloan, etc. I met them at the locker room after the game. Then I was a student at NC State where I was lucky to know Jim Valvano, I attended UNC, and Duke as well. My wife has worked or does now work at UNC, State, and Duke. I have taught at VT. I have paid ******* tuition at WF for one of my children. In this strange, compact world, I don't have to press people like Debbie Yow for info. I don't have to press Chancellors or Presidents. I have had the unique pleasurer of attending classes with both Carolina's and NC State's dumbest basketball player.

Swofford is a pimp. Nothing more, nothing less. He pimps what he has to sell. He "hates" NC State for three reasons - 1. Our Chancellor embarrassed him in 2003 and made him out as a liar to Syracuse. (He can forgive Duke and UNC) 2. He is a UNC/UVa man. 3. Most of all NC State gutted it's sports programs in 1990 and they have never fully recovered. He can't pimp us. Pimping value is what he values. As far as Raycom goes, the ptb at UNC, Duke, WF, UVa, NC State, and MD were wedded to Raycom as was their *** **** right. Was it an incestous family thing - yes, but the family is/was wider than you realize.

Duke University cut ACC football throat in 1962. It took 15 years for the ACC to claw its way back. As soon as Clemson won the National Title, they were caught making cash payments. They kind of cash payments that you have to make if you wanted to win back in the early 80's. The same payments that Georgia, Auburn, Alabama, and TN made. They drew an NCAA and an ACC probation. The ACC probation last longer because no one at Clemson appealed the action by the ACC committee who handled the league side of things. No sooner than Ford was run off Len Bias died of a coccain overdose and UM gutted it's programs. Sweaty Gary's on NCAA title does not compare to Lefty's program. No football coach matched Ross and the downward socioeconomic/sports spiral started at MD that has not abated. At the same time MD was politically beholden and ego beholden to continue funding non revenue programs also carried by UVa and UNC and Duke. Sweaty Gary quit recruiting and started hanging out a student parties allowing suggestive photos of him to be be taken. Fridge reneged on his retirement causing them to loose James Franklin. I won't attempt to get into the deep racial and political issues at UM, but they have been there since the graduate programs were moved to Baltimore in 1970.

Swofford was not a genius or a ninja. But he did work with what he had. The big mistake was not going to market for bids before Bobby Bowden got too old at FSU and before it was figured out that Miami was past it's superstar status. He could not do anything about MD because the MD System Chancellor and former Ohio State President had already decided to move MD and use the cover of the Big 10 to also attempt take over all other UM units and put them under UMCP. By quirk of timing I got to hear part of VT's President take on being lied to by Kirwan although the one most undercut just retired from Wake Forest.

Blaming Swofford for things that the Presidents and Chancellors did is foolish. The Big 10 AD did not bring PSU to the Big 10. Illinois' President did that.

If you pick a convenient scapegoat, you learn nothing. You understand nothing. You are apt to repeat the same mistake.

State fan - If it makes any difference, I’m 58 years old (graduated from UVA in 1984)...about your age.

Obviously Swofford “work[ed] with what he had”, everyone does. My contention is that he has not been a good commissioner for the ACC. For example, Delaney was an excellent commissioner because he had foresight to advocate for his own TV network that created a first-mover financial bonanza; Slive was a very good commissioner because he convinced SEC members to collaborate and drive for the common conference well-being. At best, Swofford has been a care-taker who way over-stayed his usefulness by about 15 years.

Conference commissioners are hired to generate revenue. Football and media are the two disciplines that he needed to master, but he’s further behind today than he was 25 years ago. In business school marketing terminology, Swofford can be classified somewhere between a late-adopter or laggard...while the ACC needed an innovator or early-adopter to keep pace in revenue generation. You whine about athletic self-destruction at NC State and Maryland...but where were the commissioner’s best practices efforts from the well-healed programs.

To be specific about my second guessing of Swafford’s actions...
1) He should have more forcefully promoted a football conference championship game much earlier than 2005 (although Miami was the key school)
2) He should have focused on football culture, rather than TV markets, in the first expansion (although Mark Warner saved him from himself & ESPN)
3) He should have battled the NCAA for a greater share of revenue from Tournament wins (for goodness sakes...he could have better leveraged the hoops success of UNC, Duke, Maryland, Syracuse, Louisville and Virginia)
4) He should have made the conference more appealing to genuine football brands (e.g., Notre Dame, PSU, Florida and UGA)
5) He should not have bundled all TV rights in one contract (the financial advantages of diversification are well understood in all businesses; and by all other P5 conferences)
6) He should not have signed such a long-term media rights contract in 2012 (the ACC’s value & leverage were at a historic low)

We could continue, but it would get too depressing. Swofford is hardly a victim...he has a competent army helping him generate revenue. He started his tenure with a strong hand and played the game for 24 years...being well compensated for his work.

Swofford did exactly what he was hired to do.
The ACC is not and was not the B1G or the SEC and did not operate like either of those two conferences.

???

Swofford’s compensation was generally higher than Slive and Delaney. Either Swofford or the ACC presidents were comparing notes during the past two decades.

Swofford’s successor is coming from the BIG. ACC presidents’ expectations are being communicated by the selection.

I agree with you that Swofford likely believed that he was hired to be a care-taker in 1997. Unfortunately, running the conference should have taught him that he needed to continually transform the conference...generating revenue via football and media contracts. Hence why I believe that he over-stayed his usefulness by at least 15 years. The ACC leaders thought athletics was their country club activity...but conference commissioners are judged by their abilities to run the business (i.e., grow the revenues, make institutions more successful, etc.).

(01-21-2021 02:23 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(01-21-2021 01:26 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(01-21-2021 01:11 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(01-21-2021 11:54 AM)Statefan Wrote:  Wahoo - I don't know how old you are. Based on your knowledge base you sound like you are less than 40. I mean you no slight but I am nearly 60 and get part of my "inside" information from people like Bill Friday and Bill Cobey. I am a NC State because me father took me to basketball games where I met David Thompson, Tommy Burleson, Monte Towe, Norm Sloan, etc. I met them at the locker room after the game. Then I was a student at NC State where I was lucky to know Jim Valvano, I attended UNC, and Duke as well. My wife has worked or does now work at UNC, State, and Duke. I have taught at VT. I have paid ******* tuition at WF for one of my children. In this strange, compact world, I don't have to press people like Debbie Yow for info. I don't have to press Chancellors or Presidents. I have had the unique pleasurer of attending classes with both Carolina's and NC State's dumbest basketball player.

Swofford is a pimp. Nothing more, nothing less. He pimps what he has to sell. He "hates" NC State for three reasons - 1. Our Chancellor embarrassed him in 2003 and made him out as a liar to Syracuse. (He can forgive Duke and UNC) 2. He is a UNC/UVa man. 3. Most of all NC State gutted it's sports programs in 1990 and they have never fully recovered. He can't pimp us. Pimping value is what he values. As far as Raycom goes, the ptb at UNC, Duke, WF, UVa, NC State, and MD were wedded to Raycom as was their *** **** right. Was it an incestous family thing - yes, but the family is/was wider than you realize.

Duke University cut ACC football throat in 1962. It took 15 years for the ACC to claw its way back. As soon as Clemson won the National Title, they were caught making cash payments. They kind of cash payments that you have to make if you wanted to win back in the early 80's. The same payments that Georgia, Auburn, Alabama, and TN made. They drew an NCAA and an ACC probation. The ACC probation last longer because no one at Clemson appealed the action by the ACC committee who handled the league side of things. No sooner than Ford was run off Len Bias died of a coccain overdose and UM gutted it's programs. Sweaty Gary's on NCAA title does not compare to Lefty's program. No football coach matched Ross and the downward socioeconomic/sports spiral started at MD that has not abated. At the same time MD was politically beholden and ego beholden to continue funding non revenue programs also carried by UVa and UNC and Duke. Sweaty Gary quit recruiting and started hanging out a student parties allowing suggestive photos of him to be be taken. Fridge reneged on his retirement causing them to loose James Franklin. I won't attempt to get into the deep racial and political issues at UM, but they have been there since the graduate programs were moved to Baltimore in 1970.

Swofford was not a genius or a ninja. But he did work with what he had. The big mistake was not going to market for bids before Bobby Bowden got too old at FSU and before it was figured out that Miami was past it's superstar status. He could not do anything about MD because the MD System Chancellor and former Ohio State President had already decided to move MD and use the cover of the Big 10 to also attempt take over all other UM units and put them under UMCP. By quirk of timing I got to hear part of VT's President take on being lied to by Kirwan although the one most undercut just retired from Wake Forest.

Blaming Swofford for things that the Presidents and Chancellors did is foolish. The Big 10 AD did not bring PSU to the Big 10. Illinois' President did that.

If you pick a convenient scapegoat, you learn nothing. You understand nothing. You are apt to repeat the same mistake.

State fan - If it makes any difference, I’m 58 years old (graduated from UVA in 1984)...about your age.

Obviously Swofford “work[ed] with what he had”, everyone does. My contention is that he has not been a good commissioner for the ACC. For example, Delaney was an excellent commissioner because he had foresight to advocate for his own TV network that created a first-mover financial bonanza; Slive was a very good commissioner because he convinced SEC members to collaborate and drive for the common conference well-being. At best, Swofford has been a care-taker who way over-stayed his usefulness by about 15 years.

Conference commissioners are hired to generate revenue. Football and media are the two disciplines that he needed to master, but he’s further behind today than he was 25 years ago. In business school marketing terminology, Swofford can be classified somewhere between a late-adopter or laggard...while the ACC needed an innovator or early-adopter to keep pace in revenue generation. You whine about athletic self-destruction at NC State and Maryland...but where were the commissioner’s best practices efforts from the well-healed programs.

To be specific about my second guessing of Swafford’s actions...
1) He should have more forcefully promoted a football conference championship game much earlier than 2005 (although Miami was the key school)
2) He should have focused on football culture, rather than TV markets, in the first expansion (although Mark Warner saved him from himself & ESPN)
3) He should have battled the NCAA for a greater share of revenue from Tournament wins (for goodness sakes...he could have better leveraged the hoops success of UNC, Duke, Maryland, Syracuse, Louisville and Virginia)
4) He should have made the conference more appealing to genuine football brands (e.g., Notre Dame, PSU, Florida and UGA)
5) He should not have bundled all TV rights in one contract (the financial advantages of diversification are well understood in all businesses; and by all other P5 conferences)
6) He should not have signed such a long-term media rights contract in 2012 (the ACC’s value & leverage were at a historic low)

We could continue, but it would get too depressing. Swofford is hardly a victim...he has a competent army helping him generate revenue. He started his tenure with a strong hand and played the game for 24 years...being well compensated for his work.

Swofford did exactly what he was hired to do.
The ACC is not and was not the B1G or the SEC and did not operate like either of those two conferences.

???

Swofford’s compensation was generally higher than Slive and Delaney. Either Swofford or the ACC presidents were comparing notes during the past two decades.

Swofford’s successor is coming from the BIG. ACC presidents’ expectations are being communicated by the selection.

I agree with you that Swofford likely believed that he was hired to be a care-taker in 1997. Unfortunately, running the conference should have taught him that he needed to continually transform the conference...generating revenue via football and media contracts. Hence why I believe that he over-stayed his usefulness by at least 15 years. The ACC leaders thought athletics was their country club activity...but conference commissioners are judged by their abilities to run the business (i.e., grow the revenues, make institutions more successful, etc.).

Captain Smith asked the chief architect and engineer Mr. Andrews how long the ship had to live. Meanwhile Mr. Ismay of the White Star Line disguised himself and got into a lifeboat. Rockets were fired to attract another ship on the horizon and the wireless messages of distress were sent.

It seems to me a silly time to be laying blame when it is time to assess the seaworthiness of the ACC, as it currently is, and to make the best recommendations for all concerned moving forward. A new commissioner means an opportunity to chart a new course, provided the vessel he inherited is able. I think you guys should be talking about all future options rather than dwelling on past mistakes.

There are so many would have, should have, could have threads on this site in multiple forums and nothing good ever comes from them.

The ratings for ACC are behind those from B1G and SEC which justifies payment below them. Question for me has always been, how do you maximize what you have?

The first thing you do is destroy these divisions and get the better "brands" playing each other more often. I understand why the divisions are what they are...but if more money is at stake some people are just gonna have to suck it up.

(01-21-2021 01:26 PM)XLance Wrote:  Swofford did exactly what he was hired to do...

(01-21-2021 02:35 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Captain Smith asked the chief architect and engineer Mr. Andrews how long the ship had to live. Meanwhile Mr. Ismay of the White Star Line disguised himself and got into a lifeboat. Rockets were fired to attract another ship on the horizon and the wireless messages of distress were sent.

It seems to me a silly time to be laying blame when it is time to assess the seaworthiness of the ACC, as it currently is, and to make the best recommendations for all concerned moving forward. A new commissioner means an opportunity to chart a new course, provided the vessel he inherited is able. I think you guys should be talking about all future options rather than dwelling on past mistakes.

There are so many would have, should have, could have threads on this site in multiple forums and nothing good ever comes from them.

Honestly, I used to think Nole was just barking up a tree, but quotes like the one at the top should explain why we are still having these discussions. Too many people honestly think nothing was done wrong. If you can't learn from your mistakes, you are DOOMED to repeat them!

(01-21-2021 03:57 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-21-2021 01:26 PM)XLance Wrote:  Swofford did exactly what he was hired to do...

(01-21-2021 02:35 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Captain Smith asked the chief architect and engineer Mr. Andrews how long the ship had to live. Meanwhile Mr. Ismay of the White Star Line disguised himself and got into a lifeboat. Rockets were fired to attract another ship on the horizon and the wireless messages of distress were sent.

It seems to me a silly time to be laying blame when it is time to assess the seaworthiness of the ACC, as it currently is, and to make the best recommendations for all concerned moving forward. A new commissioner means an opportunity to chart a new course, provided the vessel he inherited is able. I think you guys should be talking about all future options rather than dwelling on past mistakes.

There are so many would have, should have, could have threads on this site in multiple forums and nothing good ever comes from them.

Honestly, I used to think Nole was just barking up a tree, but quotes like the one at the top should explain why we are still having these discussions. Too many people honestly think nothing was done wrong. If you can't learn from your mistakes, you are DOOMED to repeat them!

My point Mark is that it is after the crisis that evaluations are made. During a crisis it is time to assess the situation and pursue the best course of action to avoid its potential adverse outcomes.

i took the post by You People to be constructive. I take the ones about Swofford to be best saved for later.

COVID hurt revenues everywhere but for basketball first schools it was even harsher. Football at least had finished before it hit and limped through this year. Everyone is in a crisis mode, but they aren't saying so.

The issues for the ACC are as follows:
1. Contract is way past Boomer involvement days which means past peak revenue for college sports.

2. Other conferences are renewing now and getting large pay days for the last decade of Boomer involvement in attendance and donations. They also will be making enough to have an easier transition into a post Boomer world.
3. Potential additions for the ACC are extremely limited as to value adding potential. Notre Dame is the best prospect and they aren't chomping at the bit to join. West Virginia could add some value but not enough to play serious catch up.

Those are the realities amid the crisis.

So in light of that altering schedules to produce more high profile games is constructive and would have an immediate impact.

Arguing over Swafford's legacy is not.

As far as I'm concerned Delany and Slive were playing chess while Swoffod played footsie with ACC social circles. But, that opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans. What's done is done. The idea is to get behind the new guy and get it right. The new guy doesn't have the time to listen to the fussing about Swofford because it doesn't help him lead, but only divides opinions about him by which side of the pro anti Swofford crowd gets his ear. He loses either way.

So the best thing for the ACC is to consider all positive options and move forward. Your new guy wants to succeed. Get behind him and go! To heck with Swofford as he's yesterday's news!

(01-21-2021 03:57 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-21-2021 01:26 PM)XLance Wrote:  Swofford did exactly what he was hired to do...

(01-21-2021 02:35 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Captain Smith asked the chief architect and engineer Mr. Andrews how long the ship had to live. Meanwhile Mr. Ismay of the White Star Line disguised himself and got into a lifeboat. Rockets were fired to attract another ship on the horizon and the wireless messages of distress were sent.

It seems to me a silly time to be laying blame when it is time to assess the seaworthiness of the ACC, as it currently is, and to make the best recommendations for all concerned moving forward. A new commissioner means an opportunity to chart a new course, provided the vessel he inherited is able. I think you guys should be talking about all future options rather than dwelling on past mistakes.

There are so many would have, should have, could have threads on this site in multiple forums and nothing good ever comes from them.

Honestly, I used to think Nole was just barking up a tree, but quotes like the one at the top should explain why we are still having these discussions. Too many people honestly think nothing was done wrong. If you can't learn from your mistakes, you are DOOMED to repeat them!

"Too many people honestly think nothing was done wrong"

Wrong as Hell on that account. The ptb at Duke, UVa, and UNC did what THEY wanted to do in order to MAINTAIN as much control as possible over their booster organizations. Loosing control over the UNC Business School connected Rams Club is what got Carolina Butch Davis and the "Black" Santa, which led to the expansion of the basketball protection program into football. From looking after 3-5 kids not able to make it a Carolina to suddenly that shenanigan exploded to having to look after 40-50 who needed help pouring piss out of a boot.

You could hide the handful just as Duke shields theirs - if the numbers are small. You can hide them where the only other P-5 school in the State does the same thing. You can't hide them when they are too many and they are in the same metro area as a group that has prided itself on not looking after athletes - on making them toe the line like a damn mechanical engineer.

That ideation helped ruin GT football and basketball until the school finally relented. Some of you may recall.

Football does not run UNC, NC State, Duke, WF, or UVa. Every single time anyone in the core related to football crossed the line, they were cut down - CUT DOWN FROM WITHIN. If your purpose for the ACC was to maintain control over a monster - you make policies accordingly. SoCon and ACC presidents and chancellors have always known football is a monster. Football for football's sake last ran the conference in 1951-52.

What exists now is less than optimal. It's not how I would have done. It's not how many of the upper level Ed Foundation, or Wolfpack Club, or even Iron Duke members would had done it Be that as it may, those key decision were made in 1936, 1953, and 1962. As JR noted, it's better to focus on the future than debate a past whose path was CHOSEN by those in charge.

As an NCSU fan, I hate to sound like a Swofford apologist. But....when Miami, VT and BC joined the ACC....all three were pretty damn good football programs. Swoff couldnt have predicted Miami would shoot themselves in the head repeatedly ....and VT would level off after a few years. He was doing what ESPN was telling him to do....go get "big markets" so he did. We got lucky to get VT in spite of Swoff/ESPN. If FSU, Miami and VT had stayed the course and brought some along with them....would we even be discussing this? Swoff's best work was keeping the conference intact around 2012 when things got crazy following Murlin's departure.

Personally, and I've already mentioned this, I wonder where our dollars of today would compare with dollars from adding WVU, VT and Miami back in 03. I don't see one ounce of value in having another private school in a NE pro city with hardly ANY fans (BC).

At the end of the day, we have the ACCN and we have a conference that is deserving of more money. Not B1G money...not SEC money....but more than what we have now. 2021 is the year of the first look-in since the announcement of the ACCN. With Phillips joining next month, you can bet he was brought along NOW in order to work out some details.

(01-21-2021 03:21 PM)YouPeople Wrote:  The ratings for ACC are behind those from B1G and SEC which justifies payment below them. Question for me has always been, how do you maximize what you have?

The first thing you do is destroy these divisions and get the better "brands" playing each other more often. I understand why the divisions are what they are...but if more money is at stake some people are just gonna have to suck it up.

ACC has better TV ratings (combine bball and football) than PAC 12 and Big 12, but ACC way behind them in payout.

The payment 100% is below what it should be. It is NOT justified.

(01-21-2021 06:08 PM)nole Wrote:  

(01-21-2021 03:21 PM)YouPeople Wrote:  The ratings for ACC are behind those from B1G and SEC which justifies payment below them. Question for me has always been, how do you maximize what you have?

The first thing you do is destroy these divisions and get the better "brands" playing each other more often. I understand why the divisions are what they are...but if more money is at stake some people are just gonna have to suck it up.

ACC has better TV ratings (combine bball and football) than PAC 12 and Big 12, but ACC way behind them in payout.

The payment 100% is below what it should be. It is NOT justified.

I agree....and I believe that will be the first thing out of Phillips' mouth when he meets ESPN.

(01-21-2021 06:28 PM)YouPeople Wrote:  

(01-21-2021 06:08 PM)nole Wrote:  

(01-21-2021 03:21 PM)YouPeople Wrote:  The ratings for ACC are behind those from B1G and SEC which justifies payment below them. Question for me has always been, how do you maximize what you have?

The first thing you do is destroy these divisions and get the better "brands" playing each other more often. I understand why the divisions are what they are...but if more money is at stake some people are just gonna have to suck it up.

ACC has better TV ratings (combine bball and football) than PAC 12 and Big 12, but ACC way behind them in payout.

The payment 100% is below what it should be. It is NOT justified.

I agree....and I believe that will be the first thing out of Phillips' mouth when he meets ESPN.

And the first thing out of ESPN's mouth is going to be: "We have a signed and sealed contract that gives us control of your rights until 2036. What incentive do we have to pay you more for something we have already bought?"

You blame Swofford for choosing markets over football brands. Yet the ACC isn't the only conference that emphasized markets. The Big Ten added Maryland and Rutgers. The Pac 12 added Colorado. And the SEC had a chance at West Virginia and chose Missouri. Are those conferences all as stupid as the ACC? And the Big Ten added Nebraska "for football". How did that work out for the Big Ten? They've had four losing seasons in a row and now the Big Ten's stuck with western crap and long plane rides. Has West Virginia really made the Big 12 more valuable? If West Virginia was so great, why did the SEC choose Missouri over them? Is Missouri a better football program than West Virginia? I doubt it. They're a more populous state and they have big markets and they also have better academics. Like it or not, academic presidents have to sign off on expansion candidates. The ACC should have added West Virginia? First of all, many ACC schools would have rejected them (still would today). Second, I've shown you their pathetic TV ratings this season. If they become Clemson, they're an asset. If they're as good in the ACC as they are in the Big 12, they're an extra mouth to feed. You act like Mark Warner and Virginia Tech "saved" the ACC. Virginia Tech is just another eight win a year on average ACC football program. It's not like Michael Vick is still playing for them. Half the ACC can win eight games in a non COVID-19 year and Virginia Tech adds no market that Virginia doesn't already give the conference. Three of their last four bowl trips were to the Belk Bowl and the other was to the Independence Bowl. I'll say this, if I were in charge of the Big Ten and I were looking to ACC teams to expand, Virginia Tech would be in the bottom half of teams I would invite. Not everything's football and if the only way your school can be of value to a conference is if your football team is good your school is practically worthless.

As for the contract, I agree that in general you don't want to renew when your leverage is low. But that was the point. Maryland either had left or was on their way out and I remember rumors of Florida State going to the Big 12 (Texas A&M was invited to the SEC as #13 and there was nothing stopping them from adding FSU as #14 instead of Missouri). At the time, survival was the biggest immediate goal of Swofford and the ACC, and they remained mostly intact (how many of you ACC fans miss Maryland and do you consider Louisville an upgrade or a downgrade?) ESPN probably was able to take advantage of the ACC's weakness at the time and got a deal in their favor and against the ACC's but the alternative would have been Florida State in the Big 12 or SEC right now.