(05-10-2020 07:54 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  That would boost our economy tremendously and alleviate much suffering.

smh.

I would like to have a discussion that I don't think many on the left want to have that we should just have UBI and get rid of most/all of the bloated and pathetic welfare programs. Too many on the left just want to have government be bigger just for the sake of being bigger. I just want an actual functioning social safety net. All of these programs are just ripe with waste, fraud, misuse, people getting denied benefits that actually qualify for them and spend billions just in administration costs. Now obviously what is being proposed here is 2k a month on top of everything else. I'd prefer something like 2k a month for everyone and we get rid of a whole bunch of programs.

(05-10-2020 08:38 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  I would like to have a discussion that I don't think many on the left want to have that we should just have UBI and get rid of most/all of the bloated and pathetic welfare programs. Too many on the left just want to have government be bigger just for the sake of being bigger. I just want an actual functioning social safety net. All of these programs are just ripe with waste, fraud, misuse, people getting denied benefits that actually qualify for them and spend billions just in administration costs. Now obviously what is being proposed here is 2k a month on top of everything else. I'd prefer something like 2k a month for everyone and we get rid of a whole bunch of programs.

I think that's exactly what most/major UBI proponents are advocating. Eliminating all those program overhead costs would save us a lot of money. Same as universal health care would.

(05-10-2020 07:54 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  That would boost our economy tremendously and alleviate so much suffering.

Unfortunately the Dems will probably have to negotiate the amount down by 25-50% to get it through.

(05-10-2020 08:46 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  

(05-10-2020 08:38 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  I would like to have a discussion that I don't think many on the left want to have that we should just have UBI and get rid of most/all of the bloated and pathetic welfare programs. Too many on the left just want to have government be bigger just for the sake of being bigger. I just want an actual functioning social safety net. All of these programs are just ripe with waste, fraud, misuse, people getting denied benefits that actually qualify for them and spend billions just in administration costs. Now obviously what is being proposed here is 2k a month on top of everything else. I'd prefer something like 2k a month for everyone and we get rid of a whole bunch of programs.

I think that's exactly what most/major UBI proponents are advocating. Eliminating all those program overhead costs would save us a lot of money. Same as universal health care would.

Some are advocating for eliminating those programs, but a lot aren't. A lot are advocating for UBI in addition to those programs. A lot on the left care about increasing the size of government and bureaucracy regardless of if it actually helps people or not.

(05-10-2020 08:38 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  I would like to have a discussion that I don't think many on the left want to have that we should just have UBI and get rid of most/all of the bloated and pathetic welfare programs. Too many on the left just want to have government be bigger just for the sake of being bigger. I just want an actual functioning social safety net. All of these programs are just ripe with waste, fraud, misuse, people getting denied benefits that actually qualify for them and spend billions just in administration costs. Now obviously what is being proposed here is 2k a month on top of everything else. I'd prefer something like 2k a month for everyone and we get rid of a whole bunch of programs.

$2K/month per person is about $660B/month for the country, or almost $8 trillion a year. That is so far beyond the pale in terms of affordability that it's just not possible to consider.

I would prefer a much more moderate subsistence-level UBI, such as contained in Milton Friedman's negative income tax (NIT) or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund, which is basically the NIT in a consumption tax paradigm. Do that and Bismarck health care, and let the states pick up whatever welfare programs they want with the money they save from Medicaid.

(05-10-2020 08:46 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  

(05-10-2020 08:38 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  I would like to have a discussion that I don't think many on the left want to have that we should just have UBI and get rid of most/all of the bloated and pathetic welfare programs. Too many on the left just want to have government be bigger just for the sake of being bigger. I just want an actual functioning social safety net. All of these programs are just ripe with waste, fraud, misuse, people getting denied benefits that actually qualify for them and spend billions just in administration costs. Now obviously what is being proposed here is 2k a month on top of everything else. I'd prefer something like 2k a month for everyone and we get rid of a whole bunch of programs.

I think that's exactly what most/major UBI proponents are advocating. Eliminating all those program overhead costs would save us a lot of money. Same as universal health care would.

UBI is dead on arrival. We need to just stop with this conversation. We can't get term limits...we can't reform our schitty tax system...we can't get an affordable health insurance...there is a list a mile long of things more valid than UBI and we cant manage to make them happen. Lets get real. Not gonna happen either.

My biggest problem with UBI is people are going to blow it on booze, drugs and lottery tickets. And we aren't going to say phuck em and let them starve, go homeless, and let their kids go hungry. So what we will ultimately wind up with is UBI plus the same welfare system we have.

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I've proposed this before.

Tie UBI and Bismarck health care to a consumption tax and lowering and flattening income taxes. Eliminate the focused and means-tested welfare programs at the federal level and let the states pick up any that they want to fund with the money they save because Bismarck makes Medicaid redundant.

The only way I think you ever get it through is to have something for everybody in one proposal. Democrats get a UBI and truly universal health care. Republicans get lower and flatter income taxes and a reduction in health care costs for businesses. The consumption tax is the key. I would take some phasing in, and eventually would result in some increase in prices, but to the extent that currently embedded taxes go away, that could be close to a push. Consumption taxes have been proposed from both sides, and the generally conservative "fair tax" also includes a UBI in the form of the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund.

(05-08-2020 08:26 PM)pkptigers07 Wrote:  

(05-08-2020 07:19 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Or, at least, for the 90%.

Give me a break.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/08...rus-243670

$96,000 a year for a family of 4? What’s that like $700+ billion a month?

What good will that do? Not a darn thing. It'll be like in Venezuela where money is strewn on the streets because it doesn't have any value. Same as in pre-Hitler Germany where wives would pick up their husbands hard earned money in wheel barrows and hurry to buy whatever because they were afraid the value of it would go down again. Merchants will raise the price of everything, you can bet on it.

Dumb clucks need to read history books.

(05-08-2020 07:19 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Or, at least, for the 90%.

Give me a break.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/08...rus-243670

No way this ever comes close to passing

All these boomers in congress seem hell bent on creating a scenario where millennials have to tax the **** out of the country to make ends meet.

(05-10-2020 08:31 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  My biggest problem with UBI is people are going to blow it on booze, drugs and lottery tickets. And we aren't going to say phuck em and let them starve, go homeless, and let their kids go hungry. So what we will ultimately wind up with is UBI plus the same welfare system we have.

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People do not have the same level of stewardship toward money that they don't earn through the fruits of their labor.