Probably an old wives tail, but it has been said that FSU insisted on the NC schools to be split up when they made divisions. FSU pulled some good kids out of NC in football and basketball. NC is probably the 3rd most important state for FSU recruiting in both revenue sports.

(03-24-2020 10:31 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 10:20 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  ...Regarding whether GT or Louisville goes into the Inner division: I don't think it should matter what the schools in NC think - they're being reunited - shut up and be happy with that! Stop being so greedy!!!

Do the people in charge at GaTech prefer a division with Duke or Clemson? Either can be the sole permanent rival, just like the Big Ten does with Indiana and Purdue.

If we're looking at history, GaTech IS in a division with UNC, Duke, UVA, and VaTech. That's a majority right there.

There it is -- such a decision should be up to Georgia Tech and Louisville (with GT having seniority)

(03-24-2020 11:43 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  Probably an old wives tail, but it has been said that FSU insisted on the NC schools to be split up when they made divisions. FSU pulled some good kids out of NC in football and basketball. NC is probably the 3rd most important state for FSU recruiting in both revenue sports.

but would FSU trade a game in NC every other year for a game in Atlanta?

I'm not a fan of having permanent annual crossovers between divisions. But it's not easy to do with 14 or more schools in a conference. I sort of went radical here, though, and tried to see what we might be able to do if the ACC and Big 12 essentially merged into a 24 team super conference. Really, for football, it would still act like two 12 team conferences, each with two six team divisions and no permanent crossovers, with an 8 game conference schedule (playing the other teams in your conference every other year). There would be some interconference play, but not a lot.

Below are the 4 divisions of six teams each, with possible annual OOC opponents for each team (with the cooperation of ESPN/SEC). In this model, Notre Dame adds a sixth annual game, alternating between Oklahoma and Texas.

EAST:

Clemson (South Carolina, Oklahoma/Texas)
Florida State (Florida, Mississippi St/Auburn/ Notre Dame)
Georgia Tech (Georgia, Auburn/Notre Dame/Duke)
Miami (UCF/Notre Dame, Notre Dame/USF)
Boston College (UConn/UMass, TCU)
Syracuse (Rutgers, Pitt)

North Carolina (South Carolina/ECU, Louisville)
Virginia Tech (West Virginia, Tennessee)
NC State (ECU/South Carolina, West Virginia)
Duke (Northwestern)
Virginia (Maryland, Iowa State)
Wake Forest (Vanderbilt, Kansas)

WEST:

Oklahoma (Arkansas, Clemson/Notre Dame)
Oklahoma State (LSU)
TCU (SMU, Boston College)
Baylor (Houston)
Texas (Texas A&M, Notre Dame/Clemson)
Texas Tech (Houston)

Kansas State (Nebraska)
West Virginia (Virginia Tech, NC State)
Louisville (Kentucky, North Carolina)
Pitt (Notre Dame/Penn State, Syracuse)
Iowa State (Iowa, Virginia)
Kansas (Missouri, Wake Forest)

To compensate Pitt for being moved west, they get Notre Dame every year. In years when they get Penn State on their schedule they have an eleventh P4 game.

For hoops, you play everyone in your pod twice, everybody else in your division once, and four games against the other division, with matchups determined mostly by the conference for maximum national effect (that is, facilitating matchups among elite teams where possible, such as Louisville, Kansas, UNC, Duke and others as they emerge).

(03-25-2020 12:03 PM)ken d Wrote:  I'm not a fan of having permanent annual crossovers between divisions. But it's not easy to do with 14 or more schools in a conference. I sort of went radical here, though, and tried to see what we might be able to do if the ACC and Big 12 essentially merged into a 24 team super conference. Really, for football, it would still act like two 12 team conferences, each with two six team divisions and no permanent crossovers, with an 8 game conference schedule (playing the other teams in your conference every other year). There would be some interconference play, but not a lot.

Below are the 4 divisions of six teams each, with possible annual OOC opponents for each team (with the cooperation of ESPN/SEC). In this model, Notre Dame adds a sixth annual game, alternating between Oklahoma and Texas.

EAST:

Clemson (South Carolina, Oklahoma / Texas)
Florida State (Florida, Mississippi St /Auburn / Notre Dame)
Georgia Tech (Georgia, Auburn / Notre Dame / Duke)
Miami (UCF / Notre Dame, Notre Dame / USF)
Boston College (UConn, UMass)
Syracuse (Rutgers, Pitt)

North Carolina (South Carolina / ECU)
Virginia Tech (West Virginia, Tennessee)
NC State (ECU / South Carolina, West Virginia)
Duke (Northwestern)
Virginia (Maryland, ODU / Liberty)
Wake Forest (Vanderbilt, Kansas)

WEST:

Oklahoma (Arkansas, Clemson / Notre Dame)
Oklahoma State (LSU)
TCU (SMU)
Baylor (Houston)
Texas (Texas A&M, Notre Dame / Clemson)
Texas Tech (Houston)

Kansas State (Nebraska)
West Virginia (Virginia Tech, NC State)
Louisville (Kentucky, Cincinnati)
Pitt (Notre Dame / Penn State, Syracuse)
Iowa State (Iowa)
Kansas (Missouri, Wake Forest

To compensate Pitt for being moved west, they get Notre Dame every year. In years when they get Penn State on their schedule they have an eleventh P4 game. Louisville already has Kentucky OOC, but could get either UNC or Duke as a 10th P4 opponent.

For hoops, you play everyone in your pod twice, everybody else in your division once, and four games against the other division, with matchups determined mostly by the conference for maximum national effect (that is, facilitating matchups among elite teams where possible, such as Louisville, Kansas, UNC, Duke and others as they emerge).

It's not horrible.

What the hell. I’m not reading that, so it definitely won’t get to the commish’s desk.

(03-22-2020 06:32 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(03-22-2020 06:16 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(03-22-2020 06:14 PM)schmolik Wrote:  The North Carolina schools, Virginia schools, and Georgia Tech in the Inner Division, everyone else in the Outer Division.

Any permanent crossovers necessary? Any objections?

Clemson and Georgia Tech play each other annually and it's one of their biggest rivalries for both teams.

I think Clemson would trade a yearly game with GT for a yearly OOC with UGA.

I couldn't possibly disagree more.

(03-24-2020 10:31 AM)esayem Wrote:  Do the people in charge at GaTech prefer a division with Duke or Clemson? Either can be the sole permanent rival, just like the Big Ten does with Indiana and Purdue.

If we're looking at history, GaTech IS in a division with UNC, Duke, UVA, and VaTech. That's a majority right there.

Clemson and it's not really that close. The GT view on the current divisions is "It would be nice to swap Pitt and Miami for FSU and Clemson."

(03-25-2020 09:58 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(03-22-2020 06:32 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(03-22-2020 06:16 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(03-22-2020 06:14 PM)schmolik Wrote:  The North Carolina schools, Virginia schools, and Georgia Tech in the Inner Division, everyone else in the Outer Division.

Any permanent crossovers necessary? Any objections?

Clemson and Georgia Tech play each other annually and it's one of their biggest rivalries for both teams.

I think Clemson would trade a yearly game with GT for a yearly OOC with UGA.

I couldn't possibly disagree more.

I would. GT is important, but we'd give up everything outside of the SC game to get UGA back on the schedule every year. Had you asked in 1990 we probably would have gave up SC. There's not a team out there that would do more for Clemson economically than Georgia every other year. We gave up a home game to play them in Atlanta, and were prepared to give up the 7th home game when the ACC tried to go to 9 conference games to keep them on the schedule.

Clemson vs GT or Clemson vs UGA every year is pretty much just idle speculation. If both Clemson and UGA were agreeable, they could make it happen now. That they haven't in all this time tells me a lot. FWIW, I would love to have Georgia (and Florida) in the ACC, but pigs willl fly first before that happens.

(03-25-2020 11:17 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I would. GT is important, but we'd give up everything outside of the SC game to get UGA back on the schedule every year. Had you asked in 1990 we probably would have gave up SC. There's not a team out there that would do more for Clemson economically than Georgia every other year. We gave up a home game to play them in Atlanta, and were prepared to give up the 7th home game when the ACC tried to go to 9 conference games to keep them on the schedule.

Let me expand:

For the proposal (drop GT, add UGA OOC every year) to work you would need to reduce your number of ACC games by one, and hand each team an additional OOC slot (and a pay cut from ESPN for one less league game per team). So you would be giving up one of your few prized ACC games for .... 2-3 games a decade against UGA, and take a substantial pay cut from ESPN?

(03-26-2020 09:08 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(03-25-2020 11:17 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I would. GT is important, but we'd give up everything outside of the SC game to get UGA back on the schedule every year. Had you asked in 1990 we probably would have gave up SC. There's not a team out there that would do more for Clemson economically than Georgia every other year. We gave up a home game to play them in Atlanta, and were prepared to give up the 7th home game when the ACC tried to go to 9 conference games to keep them on the schedule.

Let me expand:

For the proposal (drop GT, add UGA OOC every year) to work you would need to reduce your number of ACC games by one, and hand each team an additional OOC slot (and a pay cut from ESPN for one less league game per team). So you would be giving up one of your few prized ACC games for .... 2-3 games a decade against UGA, and take a substantial pay cut from ESPN?

...or Clemson would have to go independent
...or UGA would have to join the ACC
...or Clemson would have to join the SEC
...or the NCAA would have to expand the season to 13 games
...or Clemson and UGA would both have to agree to 2 annual P5 OOC games (no variations except for one in-conference cross-division game per year and 2 buy games).

Yes, they would both have to agree to give up an annual OOC game. Stagger it so the season Clemson is at SC, they host UGA. UGA would host GT.

Get rid of divisions.

(03-24-2020 11:43 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  Probably an old wives tail, but it has been said that FSU insisted on the NC schools to be split up when they made divisions. FSU pulled some good kids out of NC in football and basketball. NC is probably the 3rd most important state for FSU recruiting in both revenue sports.

No, FSU had nothing to do with divisions.

The first split was FSU and Miami to give everyone a chance to play in Florida every other year. That was decision one.

Decision two was to allow UNC/Duke/GT/UVa to be in the same division.

Decisions three was to keep WF, Clemson, and NC State together.

No one saw Miami going into the toilet. No one saw MD and Kirwan running off.

The screw job came when Louisville was plugged in for MD. That meant that everyone in the Atlantic was cut out of the State of MD, VA, DC, and Pa from a bi-annual appearance standpoint. NC State used to recruit MD/DC/Va and Pa, WF likewise with MD/DC/Va.

Not only does the Coastal not have a perennial top 10 program from a competition standpoint, the Coastal appears in talent rich Florida, Georgia, ND, Va, and Pa. While dimensionless is the way to go, I don't see it because some Coastal schools will lose an advantage.

(04-07-2020 05:34 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 11:43 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  Probably an old wives tail, but it has been said that FSU insisted on the NC schools to be split up when they made divisions. FSU pulled some good kids out of NC in football and basketball. NC is probably the 3rd most important state for FSU recruiting in both revenue sports.

No, FSU had nothing to do with divisions.

The first split was FSU and Miami to give everyone a chance to play in Florida every other year. That was decision one.

Decision two was to allow UNC/Duke/GT/UVa to be in the same division.

Decisions three was to keep WF, Clemson, and NC State together.

No one saw Miami going into the toilet. No one saw MD and Kirwan running off.

The screw job came when Louisville was plugged in for MD. That meant that everyone in the Atlantic was cut out of the State of MD, VA, DC, and Pa from a bi-annual appearance standpoint. NC State used to recruit MD/DC/Va and Pa, WF likewise with MD/DC/Va.

Not only does the Coastal not have a perennial top 10 program from a competition standpoint, the Coastal appears in talent rich Florida, Georgia, ND, Va, and Pa. While dimensionless is the way to go, I don't see it because some Coastal schools will lose an advantage.

VaTech or Pitt for BC or Syracuse

VaTech for BC: UVA-VaTech, BC-SU, and Pitt-Louis become crossovers

Pitt for BC: BC-SU and VaTech-Pitt or VaTech-Louis/UVA-Pitt become crossovers.

VaTech for Syracuse: UVA-VaTech, SU-BC, Pitt-Louis

Pitt for Syracuse: SU-BC and VaTech-Pitt or VaTech-Louis/UVA-Pitt

(04-08-2020 08:52 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(04-07-2020 05:34 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 11:43 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  Probably an old wives tail, but it has been said that FSU insisted on the NC schools to be split up when they made divisions. FSU pulled some good kids out of NC in football and basketball. NC is probably the 3rd most important state for FSU recruiting in both revenue sports.

No, FSU had nothing to do with divisions.

The first split was FSU and Miami to give everyone a chance to play in Florida every other year. That was decision one.

Decision two was to allow UNC/Duke/GT/UVa to be in the same division.

Decisions three was to keep WF, Clemson, and NC State together.

No one saw Miami going into the toilet. No one saw MD and Kirwan running off.

The screw job came when Louisville was plugged in for MD. That meant that everyone in the Atlantic was cut out of the State of MD, VA, DC, and Pa from a bi-annual appearance standpoint. NC State used to recruit MD/DC/Va and Pa, WF likewise with MD/DC/Va.

Not only does the Coastal not have a perennial top 10 program from a competition standpoint, the Coastal appears in talent rich Florida, Georgia, ND, Va, and Pa. While dimensionless is the way to go, I don't see it because some Coastal schools will lose an advantage.

VaTech or Pitt for BC or Syracuse

VaTech for BC: UVA-VaTech, BC-SU, and Pitt-Louis become crossovers

Pitt for BC: BC-SU and VaTech-Pitt or VaTech-Louis/UVA-Pitt become crossovers.

VaTech for Syracuse: UVA-VaTech, SU-BC, Pitt-Louis

Pitt for Syracuse: SU-BC and VaTech-Pitt or VaTech-Louis/UVA-Pitt

None of those are great, but Pitt for BC is the least bad. The only real solution IMO has to involve GT in a trade.

(04-08-2020 09:21 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  None of those are great, but Pitt for BC is the least bad. The only real solution IMO has to involve GT in a trade.

From GT's standpoint the Atlantic contains the two FB teams we most want to play .... combined with a lot of teams we don't want to play ever.

The Coastal has almost nothing but acceptable teams to play ... but none of the super juicy ones.

I don't think telling GT "we're going to give you FSU, but make half of your schedule utterly undesirable" will go over well.

(04-08-2020 09:35 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(04-08-2020 09:21 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  None of those are great, but Pitt for BC is the least bad. The only real solution IMO has to involve GT in a trade.

From GT's standpoint the Atlantic contains the two FB teams we most want to play .... combined with a lot of teams we don't want to play ever.

The Coastal has almost nothing but acceptable teams to play ... but none of the super juicy ones.

I don't think telling GT "we're going to give you FSU, but make half of your schedule utterly undesirable" will go over well.

Oh, I totally understand that. This isn't a "trade 2 teams" fix!

(04-08-2020 11:46 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(04-08-2020 09:35 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(04-08-2020 09:21 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  None of those are great, but Pitt for BC is the least bad. The only real solution IMO has to involve GT in a trade.

From GT's standpoint the Atlantic contains the two FB teams we most want to play .... combined with a lot of teams we don't want to play ever.

The Coastal has almost nothing but acceptable teams to play ... but none of the super juicy ones.

I don't think telling GT "we're going to give you FSU, but make half of your schedule utterly undesirable" will go over well.

Oh, I totally understand that. This isn't a "trade 2 teams" fix!

It would create a true zipper.