Suppose for sake of argument that Army agreed to join on a football-only basis. The obvious scheduling challenge is that the Army/Navy game is played the week after the CCG.

Thought: would it be feasible — for purposes of conference standings — to designate the Army/Navy game as OOC for both teams, and to designate their games against Air Force as a conference game for both teams? It’s a team that they both play every year, and it’s a home game for one and a road game for the other, so the 4/4 balance is kept in place.

I know that for a few years after Georgia Tech and Tulane withdrew from the SEC in the 1960s, some of their games against SEC opponents were counted in conference standings. So there is some precedent for this.

(06-24-2019 02:28 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Suppose for sake of argument that Army agreed to join on a football-only basis. The obvious scheduling challenge is that the Army/Navy game is played the week after the CCG.

Thought: would it be feasible — for purposes of conference standings — to designate the Army/Navy game as OOC for both teams, and to designate their games against Air Force as a conference game for both teams? It’s a team that they both play every year, and it’s a home game for one and a road game for the other, so the 4/4 balance is kept in place.

I know that for a few years after Georgia Tech and Tulane withdrew from the SEC in the 1960s, some of their games against SEC opponents were counted in conference standings. So there is some precedent for this.

Never scheduling Army vs Navy cross-division, and making the Army-Navy game not count in conference standings is the LEAST BAD way to do that. And it is still bad with possibility of CCG matchup and Army-Navy rematch seven days later.

(06-24-2019 02:30 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  Never scheduling Army vs Navy cross-division, and making the Army-Navy game not count in conference standings is the LEAST BAD way to do that. And it is still bad with possibility of CCG matchup and Army-Navy rematch seven days later.

But rematch is impossible if they are in same division.

Also worth noting that divisions could ultimately be decided by a team beating air force, who could be terrible that year.

(06-24-2019 02:28 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Suppose for sake of argument that Army agreed to join on a football-only basis. The obvious scheduling challenge is that the Army/Navy game is played the week after the CCG.

Thought: would it be feasible — for purposes of conference standings — to designate the Army/Navy game as OOC for both teams, and to designate their games against Air Force as a conference game for both teams? It’s a team that they both play every year, and it’s a home game for one and a road game for the other, so the 4/4 balance is kept in place.

I know that for a few years after Georgia Tech and Tulane withdrew from the SEC in the 1960s, some of their games against SEC opponents were counted in conference standings. So there is some precedent for this.

Solid outside the box thinking there.

(06-24-2019 02:34 PM)CoastalJuan Wrote:  Also worth noting that divisions could ultimately be decided by a team beating air force, who could be terrible that year.

You never know who’ll be up or down, year-to-year. But over the long haul, doesn’t Air Force tend to be at a similar competitive level as Army/Navy? And that’s who they would be “replacing” on the schedule.

One thing that is interesting about this suggestion is that both Army and Navy could beat Air Force in a given season, while every other conference game has a winner and a loser. So both in theory could go 8-0 in conference in the same season. So who would play in the title game the week before their match up?

(06-24-2019 02:50 PM)Chappy Wrote:  One thing that is interesting about this suggestion is that both Army and Navy could beat Air Force in a given season, while every other conference game has a winner and a loser. So both in theory could go 8-0 in conference in the same season. So who would play in the title game the week before their match up?

I admit, that’s possible in the scenario I’ve described.

Some sort of tie-breaker would (of course) have to implemented ahead of time. Could be based on national rankings, strength-of-schedule, overall score-differential, etc.

Never going to happen.

I suppose, but I don't believe it has to be that complicated.

Why not make it a yearly cross division rivalry, and instead of having the game the last game of the season have it the first week of the season. There is often little competition in terms of TV viewers in week 1 since everyone is playing cupcakes.

Teams don't usually want to play conference games off the bat, but it would be a great way to enhance the game in my opinion. I mean, who wouldn't watch the Army vs Navy game to start off the college football season?

(06-24-2019 02:30 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 02:28 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Suppose for sake of argument that Army agreed to join on a football-only basis. The obvious scheduling challenge is that the Army/Navy game is played the week after the CCG.

Thought: would it be feasible — for purposes of conference standings — to designate the Army/Navy game as OOC for both teams, and to designate their games against Air Force as a conference game for both teams? It’s a team that they both play every year, and it’s a home game for one and a road game for the other, so the 4/4 balance is kept in place.

I know that for a few years after Georgia Tech and Tulane withdrew from the SEC in the 1960s, some of their games against SEC opponents were counted in conference standings. So there is some precedent for this.

Never scheduling Army vs Navy cross-division, and making the Army-Navy game not count in conference standings is the LEAST BAD way to do that. And it is still bad with possibility of CCG matchup and Army-Navy rematch seven days later.

And I have a fix. If that ever happens--there is no AAC CCG. The traditional Army-Navy games simply occurs a week later and functions as both the traditional game and as a CCG. In those years, the AAC will get a 1/3 cut of the Army Navy game. Thats to make up for the value lost in by having no CCG. Thats going to be a fairly rare event--so I think it will be ok.

(06-24-2019 06:07 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 02:30 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 02:28 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Suppose for sake of argument that Army agreed to join on a football-only basis. The obvious scheduling challenge is that the Army/Navy game is played the week after the CCG.

Thought: would it be feasible — for purposes of conference standings — to designate the Army/Navy game as OOC for both teams, and to designate their games against Air Force as a conference game for both teams? It’s a team that they both play every year, and it’s a home game for one and a road game for the other, so the 4/4 balance is kept in place.

I know that for a few years after Georgia Tech and Tulane withdrew from the SEC in the 1960s, some of their games against SEC opponents were counted in conference standings. So there is some precedent for this.

Never scheduling Army vs Navy cross-division, and making the Army-Navy game not count in conference standings is the LEAST BAD way to do that. And it is still bad with possibility of CCG matchup and Army-Navy rematch seven days later.

And I have a fix. If that ever happens--there is no AAC CCG. The traditional Army-Navy games simply occurs a week later and functions as both the traditional game and as a CCG. In those years, the AAC will get a 1/3 cut of the Army Navy game. Thats to make up for the value lost in by having no CCG. Thats going to be a fairly rare event--so I think it will be ok.

I think using the CCG as the rock to kill two birds would be better. Having a championship game a week later than everybody else could complicate things and draw away a lot of eyebrows. Having the CCG on championship weekend would be much better for viewership

(06-24-2019 06:14 PM)IamYourDad Wrote:  I think using the CCG as the rock to kill two birds would be better. Having a championship game a week later than everybody else could complicate things and draw away a lot of eyebrows. Having the CCG on championship weekend would be much better for viewership

But then, Army/Navy does not have a media-monopoly on college football for the day of the game.

(06-24-2019 06:14 PM)IamYourDad Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 06:07 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 02:30 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 02:28 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Suppose for sake of argument that Army agreed to join on a football-only basis. The obvious scheduling challenge is that the Army/Navy game is played the week after the CCG.

Thought: would it be feasible — for purposes of conference standings — to designate the Army/Navy game as OOC for both teams, and to designate their games against Air Force as a conference game for both teams? It’s a team that they both play every year, and it’s a home game for one and a road game for the other, so the 4/4 balance is kept in place.

I know that for a few years after Georgia Tech and Tulane withdrew from the SEC in the 1960s, some of their games against SEC opponents were counted in conference standings. So there is some precedent for this.

Never scheduling Army vs Navy cross-division, and making the Army-Navy game not count in conference standings is the LEAST BAD way to do that. And it is still bad with possibility of CCG matchup and Army-Navy rematch seven days later.

And I have a fix. If that ever happens--there is no AAC CCG. The traditional Army-Navy games simply occurs a week later and functions as both the traditional game and as a CCG. In those years, the AAC will get a 1/3 cut of the Army Navy game. Thats to make up for the value lost in by having no CCG. Thats going to be a fairly rare event--so I think it will be ok.

I think using the CCG as the rock to kill two birds would be better. Having a championship game a week later than everybody else could complicate things and draw away a lot of eyebrows. Having the CCG on championship weekend would be much better for viewership

The viewership for Army-Navy, when they have the stage to themselves, rivals the Big10 and Big12 CCG ratings. There is no question whatsoever that the traditional Army-Navy date contributes a huge portion of the overall value of the game and must be preserved at all costs.

Bama vs Georgia---17.4 million SEC CCG

Oklahoma vs Texas---10.155 million Big12 CCG

Ohio St vs Northwestern---8.659 million Big10 CCG

Army-Navy---8.6 million

UCF vs Memphis---3.321 million AAC CCG

(06-24-2019 06:51 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 06:14 PM)IamYourDad Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 06:07 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 02:30 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 02:28 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Suppose for sake of argument that Army agreed to join on a football-only basis. The obvious scheduling challenge is that the Army/Navy game is played the week after the CCG.

Thought: would it be feasible — for purposes of conference standings — to designate the Army/Navy game as OOC for both teams, and to designate their games against Air Force as a conference game for both teams? It’s a team that they both play every year, and it’s a home game for one and a road game for the other, so the 4/4 balance is kept in place.

I know that for a few years after Georgia Tech and Tulane withdrew from the SEC in the 1960s, some of their games against SEC opponents were counted in conference standings. So there is some precedent for this.

Never scheduling Army vs Navy cross-division, and making the Army-Navy game not count in conference standings is the LEAST BAD way to do that. And it is still bad with possibility of CCG matchup and Army-Navy rematch seven days later.

And I have a fix. If that ever happens--there is no AAC CCG. The traditional Army-Navy games simply occurs a week later and functions as both the traditional game and as a CCG. In those years, the AAC will get a 1/3 cut of the Army Navy game. Thats to make up for the value lost in by having no CCG. Thats going to be a fairly rare event--so I think it will be ok.

I think using the CCG as the rock to kill two birds would be better. Having a championship game a week later than everybody else could complicate things and draw away a lot of eyebrows. Having the CCG on championship weekend would be much better for viewership

The viewership for Army-Navy, when they have the stage to themselves, rivals the Big10 and Big12 CCG ratings. There is no question whatsoever that the traditional Army-Navy date contributes a huge portion of the overall value of the game and must be preserved at all costs.

Bama vs Georgia---17.4 million SEC CCG

Oklahoma vs Texas---10.155 million Big12 CCG

Ohio St vs Northwestern---8.659 million Big10 CCG

Army-Navy---8.6 million

UCF vs Memphis---3.321 million AAC CCG

I don’t think it can be preserved though. On the odd chance both Navy and Army play in the CCG game sure, although I’m not sure we would be allowed to do that. It’s called championship weekend for a reason. I’m sure other conferences would like to play it a week later as well to have a higher viewership. They don’t however, because they likely are not allowed to.

As far as the regular game is concerned, I’m not sure how it would work without a lot of complications. Having teams within a conference play each other and not count towards their conference record seems odd. That seems like the only solution however

There is absolutely no way you can count games with a non-member (i.e Air Force) as conference games, literally no chance.

That said, I see no reason why the AAC cannot allow army and navy to have their game outside of the conference. Yes this would require the to be in different divisions and there is the wild chance that they could be forced to play each other two weeks in a row but that farce would bring about huge ratings for the AAC. We are not a P5 stop acting like we should be above gimmics.

(06-25-2019 04:13 AM)wavefan12 Wrote:  There is absolutely no way you can count games with a non-member (i.e Air Force) as conference games, literally no chance.

That said, I see no reason why the AAC cannot allow army and navy to have their game outside of the conference. Yes this would require the to be in different divisions and there is the wild chance that they could be forced to play each other two weeks in a row but that farce would bring about huge ratings for the AAC. We are not a P5 stop acting like we should be above gimmics.

The AAC could possibly get a waiver for such a thing, but I don't think it's a good idea. Teams life USF will be getting spanked OOC these next few years. It's not like they will win a conference championship anytime soon, but they shouldn't be penalized for scheduling hard opponents out of conference.

I would just stick with non-even divisions, and have teams in the East play a home-home series in conference

(06-25-2019 04:44 AM)IamYourDad Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 04:13 AM)wavefan12 Wrote:  There is absolutely no way you can count games with a non-member (i.e Air Force) as conference games, literally no chance.

That said, I see no reason why the AAC cannot allow army and navy to have their game outside of the conference. Yes this would require the to be in different divisions and there is the wild chance that they could be forced to play each other two weeks in a row but that farce would bring about huge ratings for the AAC. We are not a P5 stop acting like we should be above gimmics.

The AAC could possibly get a waiver for such a thing, but I don't think it's a good idea. Teams life USF will be getting spanked OOC these next few years. It's not like they will win a conference championship anytime soon, but they shouldn't be penalized for scheduling hard opponents out of conference.

I would just stick with non-even divisions, and have certain teams play home-home series in conference

For the sake of clarity, no waiver or any kind of mother-may-I is required to have conference members schedule a game between them that doesn't count to conference records. UNC and Wake Forest will have one this season.

I dont know for sure about a waiver to use non-conference games in counting conference standings. It might require a readout, but if it is framed as tiebreaker rules, that's entirely our business; our tiebreaker rules already include things like overall record and CFP rankings which include OOC play.

(06-25-2019 04:54 AM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 04:44 AM)IamYourDad Wrote:  

(06-25-2019 04:13 AM)wavefan12 Wrote:  There is absolutely no way you can count games with a non-member (i.e Air Force) as conference games, literally no chance.

That said, I see no reason why the AAC cannot allow army and navy to have their game outside of the conference. Yes this would require the to be in different divisions and there is the wild chance that they could be forced to play each other two weeks in a row but that farce would bring about huge ratings for the AAC. We are not a P5 stop acting like we should be above gimmics.

The AAC could possibly get a waiver for such a thing, but I don't think it's a good idea. Teams life USF will be getting spanked OOC these next few years. It's not like they will win a conference championship anytime soon, but they shouldn't be penalized for scheduling hard opponents out of conference.

I would just stick with non-even divisions, and have certain teams play home-home series in conference

For the sake of clarity, no waiver or any kind of mother-may-I is required to have conference members schedule a game between them that doesn't count to conference records. UNC and Wake Forest will have one this season.

I dont know for sure about a waiver to use non-conference games in counting conference standings. It might require a readout, but if it is framed as tiebreaker rules, that's entirely our business; our tiebreaker rules already include things like overall record and CFP rankings which include OOC play.

You're totally right on your first point. I was more referring to the idea of ooc games counting in conference. We did have a team snatched, so perhaps we could be allowed to do that for a little while. With that said, I don't believe it's a good idea for the reasons I stated above.

As far as counting in conference as ooc games, that's likely what we would need to do if Army was added. I tried to think of some other ways to do it considering it is a bit odd to do it like that, but nothing logical comes to mind without destroying viewership

Just make it a non-conference games and keep the date. Odds it’s a rematch from the championship games is low. Honestly odds both are actually good in the same season isn’t all that high based on recent history.