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AFLAGWA Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Lester
(11-04-2018 09:01 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  ...it wasn't hard to see that Lester was not a particularly qualified candidate to take on that challenge. It's possible that he's as good as we could've gotten...

I fully agree. But, oddly enough, a lot of people on this board were saying the exact same thing about Fleck until about the middle of his third season. Granted, for very different reasons.

I'm really not trying to compare the two for as difficult as it is not to. PJ is Icarus and Lester is Daedalus. Fleck had to learn how to be a Div I HC on the fly. There were definitely bumps. Lester is learning how to be a Div I HC on the fly. There are obvious bumps. The best hire coming off the 2016 season should NOT have been a coach that needed to learn DI on the fly. Like you said, I don't know who better was available.

The troubling thing for me is the eye test. We've been terrible two games in a row...well, 4 of the last 6 quarters, anyway. If you looked during the PJ era, you could see through the swaggiest bro coach to ever swag and note improvement in the team. Inconsistency, yes, but improvement. Our team started to show signs of improvement in places this season and then the wheels came off the last two games. Are these the inconsistent anomalies or is this our ceiling? That is the question. The cloud of nepotism only makes it harder to see.
11-04-2018 09:23 PM
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AFLAGWA Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Lester
(11-04-2018 09:08 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  That is 100% not true. Straw man argument.

Only if you interpret those expectations as an exact reproduction of the previous season. No one is talking another 13-1 record. Only Alabama and UCF, apparently, have that expectation.
11-04-2018 09:35 PM
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Hoekjeness Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Lester
(11-04-2018 09:23 PM)AFLAGWA Wrote:  Our team started to show signs of improvement in places this season and then the wheels came off the last two games. Are these the inconsistent anomalies or is this our ceiling? That is the question. The cloud of nepotism only makes it harder to see.

Problem is not everyone here saw it this way. Our 6-game winning streak was nothing but smoke and mirrors the entire way. We were playing bad teams (average at best). But there's a handful of people around here that didn't want to hear it. I think the last two games have exposed us for what we are... a good enough team w/individual talent to overcome beating bad teams, but a poorly coached team that is going to get hammered by most well-coached/good teams. Put it all together and we're a pretty average football team without an identity.
11-04-2018 09:37 PM
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Hoekjeness Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Lester
(11-04-2018 09:35 PM)AFLAGWA Wrote:  
(11-04-2018 09:08 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  That is 100% not true. Straw man argument.

Only if you interpret those expectations as an exact reproduction of the previous season. No one is talking another 13-1 record. Only Alabama and UCF, apparently, have that expectation.

You were the one that stated he walked into a fan base with 13-1 expectations, when in fact nearly everyone on this board assumed there would be a drop-off.
11-04-2018 09:40 PM
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AFLAGWA Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Lester
(11-04-2018 09:37 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  
(11-04-2018 09:23 PM)AFLAGWA Wrote:  Our team started to show signs of improvement in places this season and then the wheels came off the last two games. Are these the inconsistent anomalies or is this our ceiling? That is the question. The cloud of nepotism only makes it harder to see.

Problem is not everyone here saw it this way. Our 6-game winning streak was nothing but smoke and mirrors the entire way. We were playing bad teams (average at best). But there's a handful of people around here that didn't want to hear it. I think the last two games have exposed us for what we are... a good enough team w/individual talent to overcome beating bad teams, but a poorly coached team that is going to get hammered by most well-coached/good teams. Put it all together and we're a pretty average football team without an identity.

Don't disagree. I hope that what you say is true. An average team would beat BSU and lose to NIU. That puts us at 7-5 and bowling. I'd rather be at Ford Field for the MACC game than the Quick Lane Bowl. After these last two weeks, I'd see it as a gift.
11-04-2018 09:47 PM
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Post: #66
RE: Lester
(11-04-2018 09:47 PM)AFLAGWA Wrote:  
(11-04-2018 09:37 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  
(11-04-2018 09:23 PM)AFLAGWA Wrote:  Our team started to show signs of improvement in places this season and then the wheels came off the last two games. Are these the inconsistent anomalies or is this our ceiling? That is the question. The cloud of nepotism only makes it harder to see.

Problem is not everyone here saw it this way. Our 6-game winning streak was nothing but smoke and mirrors the entire way. We were playing bad teams (average at best). But there's a handful of people around here that didn't want to hear it. I think the last two games have exposed us for what we are... a good enough team w/individual talent to overcome beating bad teams, but a poorly coached team that is going to get hammered by most well-coached/good teams. Put it all together and we're a pretty average football team without an identity.

Don't disagree. I hope that what you say is true. An average team would beat BSU and lose to NIU. That puts us at 7-5 and bowling. I'd rather be at Ford Field for the MACC game than the Quick Lane Bowl. After these last two weeks, I'd see it as a gift.

I think we will likely end up 7-5 and lose our bowl game. So 7-5 and now birth is a small step forward from last year. Is that really the kind of seasons we want to see for WMU? 7-5, 6-6, 5,7 seems to be the direction we’re going, mediocrity. With the facilities, donors, fan base, recruiting, stadium, resources, we should be a force in the MAC every year and be shooting to be a Top 25 team every now and then. Not a 7-5 MAC pushover that Lester seems to have us going back to. I just don’t like where this program is, unfortunately we’re gonna have to sit through it for another 3 years.
11-04-2018 09:57 PM
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RE: Lester
The ultimate question in regards to coaching is this: Do you want to continue to ride the coaching carousel and hope for the next PJ Fleckor/Urband Meyer or would you prefer to go with the Ohio U route, which is finding a good coach who will live and die with the program?

Most teams in the MAC roll the dice on the coaching carousel -- which ultimately ends up with the coach either leaving for a better program because of success or being fired because of bad performance -- NIU and Toledo have navigated this area successfully. WMU and countless other MAC teams have not.

On the other hand, you could hire a guy like Frank Solich. Here is his record at Ohio: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/sch...index.html -- a typical winning record with numerous bowl games -- although no MAC championships. However, Solich has been in the MAC championship four times since he has been there.

Personally, I will take the latter --knowing we will be in the MAC West hunt and/or bowl game every year. I doubt the board will agree with me.
11-05-2018 12:18 AM
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Post: #68
RE: Lester
(11-05-2018 12:18 AM)BroncoMD Wrote:  The ultimate question in regards to coaching is this: Do you want to continue to ride the coaching carousel and hope for the next PJ Fleckor/Urband Meyer or would you prefer to go with the Ohio U route, which is finding a good coach who will live and die with the program?

Most teams in the MAC roll the dice on the coaching carousel -- which ultimately ends up with the coach either leaving for a better program because of success or being fired because of bad performance -- NIU and Toledo have navigated this area successfully. WMU and countless other MAC teams have not.

On the other hand, you could hire a guy like Frank Solich. Here is his record at Ohio: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/sch...index.html -- a typical winning record with numerous bowl games -- although no MAC championships. However, Solich has been in the MAC championship four times since he has been there.

Personally, I will take the latter --knowing we will be in the MAC West hunt and/or bowl game every year. I doubt the board will agree with me.

NIU and Toledo have generally hired from within, not try the random up and comer. I would have preferred to follow that lead, it seems to be the most tried and true at this level. Soliches are very few and far between.
11-05-2018 12:23 AM
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AFLAGWA Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Lester
(11-04-2018 09:40 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  You were the one that stated he walked into a fan base with 13-1 expectations, when in fact nearly everyone on this board assumed there would be a drop-off.

I must have communicated this poorly or you are not understanding. Get rid of the 13-1 number. The expectations are HIGH following a season like the one we were able to achieve. Higher than the beginning of a season where you go 8-5, miss the MACC, and win some mid-tier bowl game. We need to stop saying that he was walking in to the season with a 13-1 team. He wasn't.

You've seen the drop off. The degree of which I think is yet to be determined. Is this what we get or is this part of the build? I don't know nor do you. We all have an opinion but no crystal ball.

Honestly, this isn't worth the time we are giving it. We all want better. We all know that we are not proud of what we have seen. We all have concerns. We just have varying levels of patience to see how it plays out.
11-05-2018 06:21 AM
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Post: #70
RE: Lester
take away a fumble at northwestern, an nfl receiver and a senior qb and the 13 and 1 record...well, the margin in the mac between wins and losses is always razor thin
11-05-2018 06:38 AM
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RE: Lester
(11-05-2018 06:38 AM)uclabruin Wrote:  take away a fumble at northwestern, an nfl receiver and a senior qb and the 13 and 1 record...well, the margin in the mac between wins and losses is always razor thin

Um no. Mr UCLA, the MAC isn’t the PAC 12. When you have the senior QB and top 5 WR you anniahlate people. But if your roster is still as loaded as ours was last year and I think this year if coached properly, you won’t beat people 45-10 every week but you still should win by two or three scores vs the majority of the league and battle it out with the others because with the exception of Toledo and this year Buffalo, no other team has NFL talent throughout the roster.

NIU has a great defense but still struggles to put up points.

People don’t understand just how wide the gap is talent wise when you get from 65 nationally to 110. It’s much wider than even 10 to 65. The majority of the MAC has no NFL talent. So those that do it’s like men vs boys. When coached properly.

There is absolutely no excuse to be losing by 40+ points. Solich didn’t have his Nebraska team running that scheme last week.
(This post was last modified: 11-05-2018 07:32 AM by Wmufan715.)
11-05-2018 07:31 AM
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AFLAGWA Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Lester
(11-05-2018 07:31 AM)Wmufan715 Wrote:  There is absolutely no excuse to be losing by 40+ points.

Absolutely not! I think you would be hard-pressed to find anyone that legitimately "excuses" those losses away. There are people that are identifying causes and ways to address them. Identifying a problem does not make it an "excuse". From my interpretation, the causes are poor adjustments, poor ball security, poor eye discipline, poor assignment responsibility, poor team performance (coaching, preparation, playing), etc. Excuses would include the weather (you adjust to the weather), better players/more experience (that is what scheme is for). Maybe the way to address them is to bench some players, change responsibilities, change preparation, fire some coaches. Time will tell.

In the Michigan game, we were over-matched and we played to not get players injured (I don't like it, but I understand the pragmatism involved). In the UT/Ohio games, we were out-played, out-disciplined, and out-coached. The question is "can we learn from it and become better?" If not, Lester is not the guy to lead this team or the players are not the ones that should be suiting up for us.

I use this as reference...is Bobby Petrino at Louisville a "bad coach". He may or may not be a "good person", but is he a bad football coach? He is near .700 lifetime win percentage, his teams have finished the season in the Top 20 a total of 7 times in the last 15 years, he has literally won every single place he has coached (except the NFL), he has had exactly one season below .500 in his entire career (this year will be number 2).

His team is giving up an average of almost 60 pts a game over the last four and just had 77 put on them by Clemson. The same Clemson that Syracuse held to 27 pts. Is he a "bad coach" or just having a bad year? A bad few games?

Lester OBVIOUSLY doesn't have the same pedigree or has he earned the same collateral. But it happens. It is what you do with it that shows the worth of you as a teacher and a coach. I wasn't any more ready to call Fleck a good coach after year two than I am ready to call Lester a bad one. We'll see what he does with it. The only thing I know for certain is that I want to see better. Whatever that is, time will tell.


(11-05-2018 07:31 AM)Wmufan715 Wrote:  Solich didn’t have his Nebraska team running that scheme last week.

No, but we sure did manage to make it look that way... Although, this year, I think we might have played Nebraska closer. They have special teams problems that might be worse than ours!



(This post was last modified: 11-05-2018 10:03 AM by AFLAGWA.)
11-05-2018 08:38 AM
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BroncoMD Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Lester
(11-05-2018 12:23 AM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  
(11-05-2018 12:18 AM)BroncoMD Wrote:  The ultimate question in regards to coaching is this: Do you want to continue to ride the coaching carousel and hope for the next PJ Fleckor/Urband Meyer or would you prefer to go with the Ohio U route, which is finding a good coach who will live and die with the program?

Most teams in the MAC roll the dice on the coaching carousel -- which ultimately ends up with the coach either leaving for a better program because of success or being fired because of bad performance -- NIU and Toledo have navigated this area successfully. WMU and countless other MAC teams have not.

On the other hand, you could hire a guy like Frank Solich. Here is his record at Ohio: https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/sch...index.html -- a typical winning record with numerous bowl games -- although no MAC championships. However, Solich has been in the MAC championship four times since he has been there.

Personally, I will take the latter --knowing we will be in the MAC West hunt and/or bowl game every year. I doubt the board will agree with me.

NIU and Toledo have generally hired from within, not try the random up and comer. I would have preferred to follow that lead, it seems to be the most tried and true at this level. Soliches are very few and far between.

Actually, we have kinda followed the "hiring from within model" in both Cubit and Lester -- both having been coordinators at WMU. But I am assuming you are referencing the current staffs coordinators.

Lester could be our Frank Solich if he works out. I assume this was his dream job?
11-05-2018 09:46 AM
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Post: #74
RE: Lester
Quote:Lester could be our Frank Solich if he works out. I assume this was his dream job?

If that includes the 0 MAC Championships, no thanks.
(This post was last modified: 11-05-2018 10:05 AM by PezKingGL1.)
11-05-2018 10:05 AM
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Post: #75
RE: Lester
(11-04-2018 09:08 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  
(11-04-2018 08:31 PM)AFLAGWA Wrote:  I know this has been talked about before and Lester walked into a lot of really good things here. Great facilities, a fan base that was ready for more glory, etc. He also walked to the expectations of a 13-1 team without the team.

That is 100% not true. Straw man argument.

How can you say this when many constantly bring this up, say the program is on a different level (I do agree with this optimism), formulate plans to leave the MAC, and constantly compare everything to Fleck, and constantly pine for position coaches from previous years to be the head coach now?

If individual players are trying too hard to be heroes, and that's where our breakdowns and confidence of crisis from the last six quarters are originating from, then it's those expectations at the heart of it. That's not necessarily bad if the coaches and players can challenge themselves to live up to it. We've done it in recruiting so far, but not in execution on the field. But let's not pretend those expectations aren't there.
11-05-2018 10:06 AM
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Post: #76
RE: Lester
(11-03-2018 10:42 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  
(11-02-2018 11:24 PM)BroncoMD Wrote:  Relax -- seriously, relax and give Lester a chance.

Lester was named head football coach on January 16, 2016 -- he had no little to no time to recruit nor put together a coaching staff. He somehow put together the #3 (MAC wise) recruiting class that year (according to 247 sports) and assembled a last minute coaching staff. Is the current staff Lester's #1 choice? Probably not. However. Lester needed to give these guys an opportunity to prove themselves -- it's not easy for these coaches to pull their families and move whenever an opportunity presents itself. I believe there is some loyalty in doing so -- especially when you're assembling your staff at the last minute. Why would anyone join a coaching staff if they thought they're going to get fired the next year?

2017 -- WMU plays respectable games against USC and MSU. We were well on our way to an 8-4 record until we were decimated by injury. We rolled up 426 total yards versus 215 total yards versus Akron. We lost after the game was postponed until Sunday. We then beat a respectable EMU in Ypsilanti and lost Wassink for the season along the way. Then Shane Morris pulls out a miracle win over us in the 4th quarter for CMU to win, 35-28.

2018 -- WMU loses to Syracuse and UM -- both respectable teams. WMU then rips off 6 not so impressive wins -- but wins regardless. Then we lose Wassink early in the Toledo game. IMO, Wassink keeps us in each of these games with a ball control offense -- despite our weaknesses on defense. We should beat Ball State and lose to NIU ending with a 7-5 record with a Bowl game to boot.

Both losses to Toledo and Ohio at home were devastating -- and I get that. However both were without Wassink driving our ball control offense. The turnovers were devastating in the Ohio game -- "the ball is program" as Fleck would say.

TJ is not coming back -- we need to look forward. Fleck was almost more a salesamen than a football coach -- why else would Gameday have visited WMU?

Lester deserves a chance to run the program. He has recruited some great student-athletes in particular in Illinois/Chicago where we need to have a presence. If he continues to recruit well, but fails on field at least we know we'll have a solid team for the next coach to take over.

Good grief, you’re joking right? WMU went from being a Top 10 team nationally to missing a bowl in one year and now we are in danger of missing again. I don’t know why we think being 7-5 and 6-6 is acceptable, we should be competing with Ohio and Toledo not getting destroyed by them at home. This program is regressing right back to mediocrity because there is no accountability and nobody willing to challenge the status quo(that’s what Fleck did best).
That's why I maintain we needed to hire a guy like Les Miles - Big/known name coach - while the iron was hot. Could have asked him to "groom" a guy like Lester. this would have kept us in the "talk" nationally.
11-05-2018 10:43 AM
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Post: #77
RE: Lester
Les Miles wanted to see a pathway for WMU to leave the MAC before he would even consider an interview.
11-05-2018 10:46 AM
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RE: Lester
(11-05-2018 10:43 AM)Bronco88Oxford Wrote:  That's why I maintain we needed to hire a guy like Les Miles - Big/known name coach - while the iron was hot. Could have asked him to "groom" a guy like Lester. this would have kept us in the "talk" nationally.

THE Les Miles? Couldn't afford him.
11-05-2018 10:47 AM
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brovol Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Lester
Lester did inherit high expectations, and should have. He owned them from the day he was hired, and said so. But to say that he didnt inherit "the 13-1 team" is wrong. every coach has to deal with lost players from the season before. But Lester still inherited a very talented and very experienced team. Folks complained that Fleck didnt play the backup QB much when he was here, and that left Lester with an inexperienced QB (despite the fact that Wassink was going into his third year of college football, all at WMU), but actually Lester did inherit Flacko, who had actually played downs of football when the games were still on the line, but Lester lost Flacko. Another point is that , until Wassink got hurt, how much football had our backups played? Its not like the new coaches have thought it is so critical to get backups throwing passes in games so they are ready when called on. I'm not advocating that he should be though. frankly, mop up duty handing the ball off at the end of games doesnt do much in terms of "seasoning" a guy to start the following season.

Lester inherited a team he and his staff should have done much more with last season. I said it many times before, last years team might have been the most talented team Lester will ever have at WMU, even if his recruiting continues at a high level. He was missing experience at receiver, and game experience at QB. But had such a load of great players in the other areas. And I still think the biggest mistake he made last year was putting those young players at QB and receiver in very poor position to be successful, by forcing them to make plays primarily on third and long, when defenses knew what to expect, rather than letting them play pitch and catch on downs when defenses expected us to run. But I digress....

This has been a very disappointing two years. We should have high expectations; and yeas, the fact that someone proved that WMU can have a team which dominates MAC play, and competes against ALL opponents, even those who others feel a MAC team should have no business competing against, does effect how die-hard Broncos assess expectations. I offer no apologies for believing we should be beating most MAC opponents like we beat CMU this year, and playing at least very close games, and winning our share, against the top MAC teams. We have the foundation to be consistently at the top level in our league; facilities, budget, fan base, and administrative support. We have been consistently getting solid recruits for six or seven years now.

Every now and then a program will have a game when everything goes wrong, and the galaxies put doom in the air, leading to a terrible beating which seemingly comes out of the blue. those games should happen maybe once every five or ten years, unless you are just a bad team/program. We have had four of those games this season alone, and not one of them can anyone blame on bad luck. if I was ranking the ten worst games in school history, where WMU played as bad, and I was most disappointed with the team and its coaching, four of them would be this year, and probably at least three of them would be in the top 5 worst games. This year we played only one game when I thought we looked "strong" against a D1 opponent. The rest of our wins were "acceptable", but certainly not "impressive". Dont get me wrong, any win is a good win, and style points dont need to be established, but on the other hand, we watch these games and can tell if the team is playing particularly well. We should have played better than we have over the last two years, and anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.
11-05-2018 11:03 AM
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Aimless1 Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Lester
We will most likely disagree about 2017 to infinity and beyond. I agree we started with the talent to do what you say, but certainly did not end with it.

2018, different story. We should be more competitive this year and no excuse for the number of blow out games.

I haven't been able to figure out why we are not more competitive, but @Brindlelee has hinted there is something amiss with the players. I understand he can't say too much, and I don't sense that he's feeding us a line of b.s. But that could mean any number of things.

The problem with any new coach including Lester is there is no track record to fall back on. Not like Dantonio going 3-9 and then bouncing back to go 10-2. I am tired of being embarrassed like y'all are. I am not ready to tar & feather Lester, but there do have to be staff changes when this season is over.
11-05-2018 11:20 AM
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