Really haven't seen much of anything in the news about the $12B bailout for farmers who are facing major struggles due to tariffs and this trade war.
https://thehustle.co/Tariffs-trade-wars-meat-cheese/


The farming industry is going hog wild trying to get rid of 2.5B pounds of meat
Recent trade disputes have decreased global demand for American agricultural products, causing a surplus of more than 2.5B pounds of meat.
While the price of your frozen meatballs may fall, the unpredictable market is a disaster for farmers and agricultural producers -- and while a recently approved $12B bailout will buy (some) farmers time, it won’t stabilize volatile markets.
For ranchers, it’s an inconvenient time for a trade war.

Due to increasing consumer demand, ranchers are projected to produce a record 102.7B pounds of meat this year. But China and Mexico recently passed meaty tariffs (62% and 20%, respectively) on US pork.
Now, cold-storage warehouse owners are scrambling to expand their operations to keep meat cold so farmers can sell it.
But in the meantime, bacon waits for no man -- prices for pork have already dropped 14% as supply continues to exceed demand.

We hope you’re hungry, America
’Merica’s meat market isn’t the only one in trouble -- the US stockpile of cheese also recently hit 1.39B pounds, causing problems in the dairy industry.
To prevent farmers from completely choking on their cheese, the Trump administration passed a $12B emergency relief fund to insulate farmers from protectionist policies.
But farmers have already lost an estimated $13B from the recent tariffs. If the US remains as tariff-happy as it has been in recent months, those losses will continue to increase -- and 3.89B pounds of rotting cheese and meat is gonna stink...


Thoughts?

(07-30-2018 02:39 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  Really haven't seen much of anything in the news about the $12B bailout for farmers who are facing major struggles due to tariffs and this trade war.

The farming industry is going hog wild trying to get rid of 2.5B pounds of meat
Recent trade disputes have decreased global demand for American agricultural products, causing a surplus of more than 2.5B pounds of meat.
While the price of your frozen meatballs may fall, the unpredictable market is a disaster for farmers and agricultural producers -- and while a recently approved $12B bailout will buy (some) farmers time, it won’t stabilize volatile markets.
For ranchers, it’s an inconvenient time for a trade war.

Due to increasing consumer demand, ranchers are projected to produce a record 102.7B pounds of meat this year. But China and Mexico recently passed meaty tariffs (62% and 20%, respectively) on US pork.
Now, cold-storage warehouse owners are scrambling to expand their operations to keep meat cold so farmers can sell it.
But in the meantime, bacon waits for no man -- prices for pork have already dropped 14% as supply continues to exceed demand.

We hope you’re hungry, America
’Merica’s meat market isn’t the only one in trouble -- the US stockpile of cheese also recently hit 1.39B pounds, causing problems in the dairy industry.
To prevent farmers from completely choking on their cheese, the Trump administration passed a $12B emergency relief fund to insulate farmers from protectionist policies.
But farmers have already lost an estimated $13B from the recent tariffs. If the US remains as tariff-happy as it has been in recent months, those losses will continue to increase -- and 3.89B pounds of rotting cheese and meat is gonna stink...


Thoughts?

My father was involved in the rice industry and was always very vocal about protecting our family farms. As a result, I too grew up very supportive of America's farmers. And while he was against all sorts of government spending on programs he didn't agree with, he never wanted to see any programs for farmers cut, ever. Over time I came to see the hypocrisy of that viewpoint and my feelings on the matter tended to diverge from his.

I think that what's been created over a number of decades by our government is what is now, in many cases, a false farming economy. While I'm all for government programs that protect farmers from catastrophic losses due to weather or disease, programs that pay to maintain prices, or even pay farmers NOT TO PLANT, eventually lead to situations that are untenable. We're there today, have been for a while IMHO.

Much as European farmers will face a day of reckoning when policies protecting them are removed, American farmers will have to face the same challenges. If we're going to be for free trade, it needs to work both directions, and before all the dust settles, some people are going to get hurt. It's called life.

We had a long thread on this last week.

(07-30-2018 03:36 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  We had a long thread on this last week.

I missed it. Recall the title, or possibly post a linky? I'd like to read it.

(07-30-2018 03:52 PM)TechRocks Wrote:  

(07-30-2018 03:36 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  We had a long thread on this last week.

I missed it. Recall the title, or possibly post a linky? I'd like to read it.

Was it this one?

https://csnbbs.com/thread-853950.html

https://csnbbs.com/thread-853296.html

(not a long thread but a bit in there)

Maybe everyone needs to go to McDonald's in the next few days and celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Big Mac by buying one and getting a free MacCoin for a free Big Mac later in the week.

(07-30-2018 02:39 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  Really haven't seen much of anything in the news about the $12B bailout for farmers who are facing major struggles due to tariffs and this trade war.

The farming industry is going hog wild trying to get rid of 2.5B pounds of meat
Recent trade disputes have decreased global demand for American agricultural products, causing a surplus of more than 2.5B pounds of meat.
While the price of your frozen meatballs may fall, the unpredictable market is a disaster for farmers and agricultural producers -- and while a recently approved $12B bailout will buy (some) farmers time, it won’t stabilize volatile markets.
For ranchers, it’s an inconvenient time for a trade war.

Due to increasing consumer demand, ranchers are projected to produce a record 102.7B pounds of meat this year. But China and Mexico recently passed meaty tariffs (62% and 20%, respectively) on US pork.
Now, cold-storage warehouse owners are scrambling to expand their operations to keep meat cold so farmers can sell it.
But in the meantime, bacon waits for no man -- prices for pork have already dropped 14% as supply continues to exceed demand.

We hope you’re hungry, America
’Merica’s meat market isn’t the only one in trouble -- the US stockpile of cheese also recently hit 1.39B pounds, causing problems in the dairy industry.
To prevent farmers from completely choking on their cheese, the Trump administration passed a $12B emergency relief fund to insulate farmers from protectionist policies.
But farmers have already lost an estimated $13B from the recent tariffs. If the US remains as tariff-happy as it has been in recent months, those losses will continue to increase -- and 3.89B pounds of rotting cheese and meat is gonna stink...


Thoughts?

You posted no link, therefore I dont know if the author took into account the EU trade deal or not. The $12B may not even be needed. It was a good strategy to roll it out to show the other countries that our farmers wouldnt get hurt, so enjoy your piles of steel while your population starves, as we enjoy a meat surplus while paying a little more for our luxury vehicles.

Maybe it'd be best if LS linked this one to the end of the other?

edited to include link. I thought I had included it when I originally posted.

I don't know any poor farmers and I know a few of them.

This issue goes much much deeper than temporary tariffs and possible price guarantees. Before anybody posts too much about this topic, I encourage all to go back and look at the price of grain and meat from 5,10,15, and 20 years ago versus the cost of equipment, inputs (fertilizer/seed/etc), and regulatory and labor costs that farmers face and then look at today's prices and costs.

Some people complain about fast food workers and walmart greeters making minimum wage in unskilled positions, but I've rarely heard anybody discussing the fact that farmers are getting less for their labor while taking exponentially higher risks to feed people.

(07-31-2018 08:56 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  This issue goes much much deeper than temporary tariffs and possible price guarantees. Before anybody posts too much about this topic, I encourage all to go back and look at the price of grain and meat from 5,10,15, and 20 years ago versus the cost of equipment, inputs (fertilizer/seed/etc), and regulatory and labor costs that farmers face and then look at today's prices and costs.

Some people complain about fast food workers and walmart greeters making minimum wage in unskilled positions, but I've rarely heard anybody discussing the fact that farmers are getting less for their labor while taking exponentially higher risks to feed people.

Farmers might work hard but I've never met a poor one....


if you are going to compare 20 years ago to today labor cost should have went down. You can't complain about the cost of a machine and labor.... if it's taking the place of most your labor to do that job.

Like anything else if a farmer was not making money they would get out of the business. Someone is making money off 200 to 300% increases on garden items .

While the cash flow might be tight and make it rough from season to season. That 100,200,300 acres and equipment they handing down to their sons are worth 100s of thousands to millions

(07-30-2018 02:39 PM)NCeagle Wrote:  Really haven't seen much of anything in the news about the $12B bailout for farmers who are facing major struggles due to tariffs and this trade war.
https://thehustle.co/Tariffs-trade-wars-meat-cheese/


The farming industry is going hog wild trying to get rid of 2.5B pounds of meat
Recent trade disputes have decreased global demand for American agricultural products, causing a surplus of more than 2.5B pounds of meat.
While the price of your frozen meatballs may fall, the unpredictable market is a disaster for farmers and agricultural producers -- and while a recently approved $12B bailout will buy (some) farmers time, it won’t stabilize volatile markets.
For ranchers, it’s an inconvenient time for a trade war.

Due to increasing consumer demand, ranchers are projected to produce a record 102.7B pounds of meat this year. But China and Mexico recently passed meaty tariffs (62% and 20%, respectively) on US pork.
Now, cold-storage warehouse owners are scrambling to expand their operations to keep meat cold so farmers can sell it.
But in the meantime, bacon waits for no man -- prices for pork have already dropped 14% as supply continues to exceed demand.

We hope you’re hungry, America
’Merica’s meat market isn’t the only one in trouble -- the US stockpile of cheese also recently hit 1.39B pounds, causing problems in the dairy industry.
To prevent farmers from completely choking on their cheese, the Trump administration passed a $12B emergency relief fund to insulate farmers from protectionist policies.
But farmers have already lost an estimated $13B from the recent tariffs. If the US remains as tariff-happy as it has been in recent months, those losses will continue to increase -- and 3.89B pounds of rotting cheese and meat is gonna stink...


Thoughts?

Short term pain for long term gain. People should stick with Trump on this one. What he is trying to do is very important.

Sent from my LG-H932 using CSNbbs mobile app

I wonder if these same people who are now concerned about the price of soybeans were just as concerned in 2014 when the price dropped from well over 14 to 9?




Like most things world affairs will affect price.....

A gas increase of .20 will cost Americans more than the drop of soybeans will cost farmers. Yet we dont go off the deep end.

All the complaining has nothing to do with the poor farmer ....politics

(07-31-2018 08:56 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  This issue goes much much deeper than temporary tariffs and possible price guarantees. Before anybody posts too much about this topic, I encourage all to go back and look at the price of grain and meat from 5,10,15, and 20 years ago versus the cost of equipment, inputs (fertilizer/seed/etc), and regulatory and labor costs that farmers face and then look at today's prices and costs.

Some people complain about fast food workers and walmart greeters making minimum wage in unskilled positions, but I've rarely heard anybody discussing the fact that farmers are getting less for their labor while taking exponentially higher risks to feed people.

(07-31-2018 09:10 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(07-31-2018 08:56 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  This issue goes much much deeper than temporary tariffs and possible price guarantees. Before anybody posts too much about this topic, I encourage all to go back and look at the price of grain and meat from 5,10,15, and 20 years ago versus the cost of equipment, inputs (fertilizer/seed/etc), and regulatory and labor costs that farmers face and then look at today's prices and costs.

Some people complain about fast food workers and walmart greeters making minimum wage in unskilled positions, but I've rarely heard anybody discussing the fact that farmers are getting less for their labor while taking exponentially higher risks to feed people.

Farmers might work hard but I've never met a poor one....


if you are going to compare 20 years ago to today labor cost should have went down. You can't complain about the cost of a machine and labor.... if it's taking the place of most your labor to do that job.

Like anything else if a farmer was not making money they would get out of the business. Someone is making money off 200 to 300% increases on garden items .

While the cash flow might be tight and make it rough from season to season. That 100,200,300 acres and equipment they handing down to their sons are worth 100s of thousands to millions

Did you ever ask those "not poor" farmers what kind of debt load they're carrying?

Having been raised on a farm and actually knowing many others, I can tell you that having "things" doesn't equal being rich. Most of them are in debt up to their eyeballs.

(07-31-2018 09:31 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  I wonder if these same people who are now concerned about the price of soybeans were just as concerned in 2014 when the price dropped from well over 14 to 9?




Like most things world affairs will affect price.....

A gas increase of .20 will cost Americans more than the drop of soybeans will cost farmers. Yet we dont go off the deep end.

All the complaining has nothing to do with the poor farmer ....politics

The market going down is one thing, a trade war that has NOTHING to do with you but cause your prices to go down is another.


BTW, I love all these comments about dealing with the "short term pain", especially from people who are in position to feel no pain at all.

Let's see how many of those folks would be so hawkish if they had lease payments on their $500k combine coming due only to have to figure out where the money is coming from because someone decided that steel workers are more important than you.......

I would want to know how much of the bailout is going to family farmers and how much to large corporate organizations. I would favor helping family farmers, but the large corporate entities are big boys who can take care of themselves.

Of course, what I would really do differently is that I wouldn't have messed with the tariffs in the first place. I would have done a consumption tax as part of tax reform. That would have a significant protective effect, both penalizing imports and subsidizing exports. And it doesn't count as a tariff under international law, so nobody can really retaliate legally. It would also raise enough to do Bismarck universal private health care and get government out of a lot of health care, plus a subsistence level universal basic income (UBI) and farm out to the states (who got Medicaid lifted off their shoulders by Bismarck) the current hodge lodge of "means tested" programs (most of which would go away because the UBI would mean very few qualify), plus lowering and flattening and broadening income taxes to world-class levels, and oh by the way also balance the budget. The states would be able to opt in or doit of any of the focused programs as they wanted.

As far as agricultural surpluses, what I think I'd do is set up a program to buy the surplus and turn it over to a dispensary system for food stamp recipients. Instead of taking their card to the grocery store, they take it to the food dispensary. That way, you can control that what they are using food stamps for is good food, not junk. If I did the consumption tax thing and moved food stamps to the states, as discussed above, this would have to be coordinated with the ones that chose to keep the food stamp program, but that hardly seems like an insurmountable problem.

The problem is that every action causes an equal and opposite reaction. Yes the change in policy has hurt the farmers, no argument there.... but how long has the "old policy" hurt all sorts of other sectors for years/decades.....

There is no right answer and I am not proposing one, but remember helping one side hurts another. I am just spitballing here, but maybe keeping more manufacturing jobs in our own country puts more people to work who can then pay for the agriculture products..... then again, maybe not..

I don't like any policy that favors one group over another. The more you try to help one group, the more you hurt somebody else. At best it's a zero-sum game. But it's not even that, because there is a net loss attributable to the bureaucratic overhead required to administer the program.

That's two reasons why I prefer a consumption tax to tariffs-treats all equally and less cost to administer. Another is that it doesn't count as a tariff, so any retaliation violates international law. And of course it raises massive amounts of revenues. Studies indicate that the revenues produced equal the tax rate multiplied by 82-83% of GDP. Off a $20 trillion GDP, a 15% consumption tax would raise $2.5 trillion a year. That's almost twice what current individual income taxes produce, 2-1/2 times social security, and 7 times corporate income taxes. Basically, a buttload of money. And 15% is well below the average world rate.

Trump treating farmers like he does his prostitutes. Screw em up front and pay em back in coins after.