Amazing everyone wants to give their kids up to an armed government internment camps during the days. Think they're indoctrinating them now, wait till they hold them as real captives.

We used to fight against government wanting these types of controls over us, now we're begging for it.

Put windows back in the rooms, playgrounds in the yards and open the doors to parents to come and go as they please. It's a ******* school.

One gun control law that should get support:

A parent that didn’t have his/hers guns under control, resulting in a minor shooting up a storm, should be a felony.

(05-21-2018 08:41 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Amazing everyone wants to give their kids up to an armed government internment camps during the days. Think they're indoctrinating them now, wait till they hold them as real captives.

We used to fight against government wanting these types of controls over us, now we're begging for it.

Put windows back in the rooms, playgrounds in the yards and open the doors to parents to come and go as they please. It's a ******* school.

here here. My daughter's elementary school looks like a ******* penitentiary.

(05-21-2018 09:04 AM)fsquid Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 08:41 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Amazing everyone wants to give their kids up to an armed government internment camps during the days. Think they're indoctrinating them now, wait till they hold them as real captives.

We used to fight against government wanting these types of controls over us, now we're begging for it.

Put windows back in the rooms, playgrounds in the yards and open the doors to parents to come and go as they please. It's a ******* school.

here here. My daughter's elementary school looks like a ******* penitentiary.

Sporting events too. Ridiculous that they treat you like a criminal. I went to a minor league ball game in Daytona recently and was pleasantly surprised that they didn't have a metal detector. Just walk up to the ticket taker, have them scan your seat, and then you walk in.

Unthinkable what a bunch of Muslims with box cutters did to us. Well, not "us" but really "them".

(05-21-2018 08:47 AM)NoDak Wrote:  One gun control law that should get support:

A parent that didn’t have his/hers guns under control, resulting in a minor shooting up a storm, should be a felony.

Agreed.

(05-20-2018 10:28 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  NO!

I simply see 'best method' as limiting entry access with QUALIFIED ARMED supervision....ensure the standard is met for 'exit only' for safety purposes.....retrofit as req'd

if I had my druthers, I would also ban phones and eliminate the interwebs from all school facilities with the consequence of expulsion if violated.....but that would be too NAZI-like in the soft world we live in today.....

so basically we're sending kids to jail now...nice.

It could be argued (not that I agree with it) that TSA-like security would be effective in smaller elementary and even some middle schools, but most high schools I'm aware of have multiple buildings - the one I went to had us changing classes to move to multiple buildings & gyms throughout the day. That just won't work in those situations.

It depends on how important we want to make school safety. If it is to be the holy grail, then access controls and armed security is the only way to go--just like for bank vaults and nuclear weapons. If we are willing to make tradeoffs, then maybe we don't need to go that far. But that's the choice.

If we simply ban assault weapons, and require background checks and gun registration, and are willing to live with whatever results that produces, then we are saying that Santa Fe was okay, because none of those things would have prevented it.

(05-21-2018 10:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  It depends on how important we want to make school safety. If it is to be the holy grail, then access controls and armed security is the only way to go--just like for bank vaults and nuclear weapons. If we are willing to make tradeoffs, then maybe we don't need to go that far. But that's the choice.

If we simply ban assault weapons, and require background checks and gun registration, and are willing to live with whatever results that produces, then we are saying that Santa Fe was okay, because none of those things would have prevented it.

Would holding parents liable if their kids get access to their guns? That would have been the case in this instance.

(05-21-2018 10:42 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 10:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  It depends on how important we want to make school safety. If it is to be the holy grail, then access controls and armed security is the only way to go--just like for bank vaults and nuclear weapons. If we are willing to make tradeoffs, then maybe we don't need to go that far. But that's the choice.
If we simply ban assault weapons, and require background checks and gun registration, and are willing to live with whatever results that produces, then we are saying that Santa Fe was okay, because none of those things would have prevented it.

Would holding parents liable if their kids get access to their guns? That would have been the case in this instance.

Parents are already liable, both civil and criminal in most states. In Texas they have civil liability by statute and possible criminal liability too. So at least in this case, obviously not.

ETA: One other note. Texas does not have a separate accessory crime. If you are an accessory to murder, then you are tried for murder, not accessory to murder.

(05-20-2018 12:57 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  

(05-20-2018 12:51 PM)thespiritof1976 Wrote:  Oh yea, let's take away more of our rights.

So you're opposed to TSA security in airports then I gather? I don't recall that ever being protested by all the Constitutionalists after Dubya Bush ramped it up big-time after 9/11.

There is a difference to me between schools and travel. Only one is mandatory... though the people being forced to go aren't 'adults', so I don't see the Constitutional issue

That said, I absolutely recall the complaints about the TSA increases. It was strongly suggested that we engage in Israel like profiling and computer imaging profiling instead.

(05-21-2018 10:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 10:42 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 10:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  It depends on how important we want to make school safety. If it is to be the holy grail, then access controls and armed security is the only way to go--just like for bank vaults and nuclear weapons. If we are willing to make tradeoffs, then maybe we don't need to go that far. But that's the choice.
If we simply ban assault weapons, and require background checks and gun registration, and are willing to live with whatever results that produces, then we are saying that Santa Fe was okay, because none of those things would have prevented it.

Would holding parents liable if their kids get access to their guns? That would have been the case in this instance.

Parents are already liable, both civil and criminal in most states. In Texas they have civil liability by statute and possible criminal liability if it can be shown that the parent intentionally, recklessly, or negligently facilitated the crime. So at least in this case, obviously not.

This.

And this is one of those areas where I think the left and right often agree in the end result, but the politics of the issue keep us from speaking about it the same way.

I think making it a crime to have your property stolen and used for nefarious purposes without due process is wrong... guilty until proven innocent. That said, I think juries and judges have been vastly too lax in enforcing these liabilities, in no small part because often we find that their child (who in most cases is also dead) was bullied etc etc etc. So you're punishing a grieving parent while at least SOME of the people who pushed them over the edge walk away.

I think some of these teens and internet trolls are just as responsible as anyone.

We don't need a bunch of new laws. We simply need to enforce the ones we have. Negligence with a firearm is a crime... including up to manslaughter.

Of course we also often bargain this away to convict drug dealers/murderers... so I get the inconsistencies in the application.

A student should not be allowed to go to class with a trench coat or other jackets.

-Automatic death penalty for first or second degree murder with a gun (one appeal only)
-SEVERE penalties for committing a crime with a gun (like Iceland)

That's the thing....

The left wants to talk about 'gun culture'... but barring a few extremists, few of whom have used guns like this (I'm thinking Tim McVeigh types who used guns extensively, but then used fertilizer as their weapon) the REAL culture that needs to be addressed is the ones dealing with bullies, gangs and criminals.

McVeigh was essentially an anarchist going after the government
Some of these people are just racist POS's

but by and large, school shooters are bullied/outcast kids.

(05-21-2018 08:47 AM)NoDak Wrote:  One gun control law that should get support:

A parent that didn’t have his/hers guns under control, resulting in a minor shooting up a storm, should be a felony.

Oh it would get support.

Doesn't change the fact that it's one of the stupidest ideas ever. Holding someone else responsible for another's criminal actions is not how our criminal justice system works.

And if you do it with guns you've opened Pandora's Box on everything. Kid takes your car for a joyride and killed someone? Felony for you.

Kid takes one of your steak knives to school and cuts up a couple kids? Felony for you

(05-21-2018 02:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 08:47 AM)NoDak Wrote:  One gun control law that should get support:

A parent that didn’t have his/hers guns under control, resulting in a minor shooting up a storm, should be a felony.

Oh it would get support.

Doesn't change the fact that it's one of the stupidest ideas ever. Holding someone else responsible for another's criminal actions is not how our criminal justice system works.

And if you do it with guns you've opened Pandora's Box on everything. Kid takes your car for a joyride and killed someone? Felony for you.

Kid takes one of your steak knives to school and cuts up a couple kids? Felony for you

Anyone know how the law currently handles these type situations? Say for instance my kid one days takes my car without my knowledge and proceeds to have a wreck in which someone else is killed? What does the law say in that situation?

(05-21-2018 02:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 08:47 AM)NoDak Wrote:  One gun control law that should get support:

A parent that didn’t have his/hers guns under control, resulting in a minor shooting up a storm, should be a felony.

Oh it would get support.

Doesn't change the fact that it's one of the stupidest ideas ever. Holding someone else responsible for another's criminal actions is not how our criminal justice system works.

And if you do it with guns you've opened Pandora's Box on everything. Kid takes your car for a joyride and killed someone? Felony for you.

Kid takes one of your steak knives to school and cuts up a couple kids? Felony for you

Aren't there some alcohol related laws on the book for situations similar to this? Bartenders or restaurants who have been held liable for drunk customers killing someone in a wreck. And parents likewise being charged with providing alcohol to underage children at various functions?

It's a little different but there certainly have been tons of civil cases brought against second parties. Michigan State and Larry Nassar being a recent, costly example.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015...ccountable
(Detroit parent criminally charged on counts of involuntary manslaughter, second-degree child abuse, felony firearm and weapons after his 11 year old killed a 3-year-old playing with one of his dad's guns).

https://www.dailynews.com/2018/03/12/2-s...gh-school/
(two different parents in California charged with unlawful storage of a firearm after their kids made online threats against their schools - both now face jail time)

The Pandora's Box may have already been opened.

(05-21-2018 02:48 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 02:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 08:47 AM)NoDak Wrote:  One gun control law that should get support:
A parent that didn’t have his/hers guns under control, resulting in a minor shooting up a storm, should be a felony.

Oh it would get support.
Doesn't change the fact that it's one of the stupidest ideas ever. Holding someone else responsible for another's criminal actions is not how our criminal justice system works.
And if you do it with guns you've opened Pandora's Box on everything. Kid takes your car for a joyride and killed someone? Felony for you.
Kid takes one of your steak knives to school and cuts up a couple kids? Felony for you

Anyone know how the law currently handles these type situations? Say for instance my kid one days takes my car without my knowledge and proceeds to have a wreck in which someone else is killed? What does the law say in that situation?

It varies from state to state, but generally if they can prove that you were negligent or reckless in allowing it to happen, or intentionally allowed it to happen, you are going to have liability.

(05-21-2018 02:57 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 02:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(05-21-2018 08:47 AM)NoDak Wrote:  One gun control law that should get support:

A parent that didn’t have his/hers guns under control, resulting in a minor shooting up a storm, should be a felony.

Oh it would get support.

Doesn't change the fact that it's one of the stupidest ideas ever. Holding someone else responsible for another's criminal actions is not how our criminal justice system works.

And if you do it with guns you've opened Pandora's Box on everything. Kid takes your car for a joyride and killed someone? Felony for you.

Kid takes one of your steak knives to school and cuts up a couple kids? Felony for you

Aren't there some alcohol related laws on the book for situations similar to this? Bartenders or restaurants who have been held liable for drunk customers killing someone in a wreck. And parents likewise being charged with providing alcohol to underage children at various functions?

It's a little different but there certainly have been tons of civil cases brought against second parties. Michigan State and Larry Nasser being a recent, costly example.

The Pandora's Box may have already been opened.

As Owlnumbers stated, there are already such negligence laws on the books for guns.

Also, the other laws say bartenders etc CAN be charged/prosecuted, not presumed guilty unless they can prove otherwise. This is a lot like the college 'rape' laws where some have suggested that people actually sign a waiver with a witness who signs that they are sober, otherwise there is no consent. It shouldn't be easier to convict someone of mishandling their property in a way that lead to a 'crime' than it is to convict someone else (the actual actor) of the crime itself. If we allow that, that's what will happen. The lesser and easier conviction will be prosecuted and 'justice will be served'. No need to go after the tougher conviction for the 'minor' who suffered from the bullying and NOW has a broken home.

(05-21-2018 01:37 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  but by and large, school shooters are bullied/outcast kids.

This is the elephant in the room that no one wants to address.

Why is it that some bullied kids go on a rampage and others do not?