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Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
(01-22-2018 08:36 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 04:57 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 03:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 02:38 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(01-21-2018 03:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Released by an anti-choice group. Mmkay.

You mean a pro-life group rather than a pro-death group.

But I'm sure the pro-death group would be completely unbiased.

Pro-Choice is kind of a contradiction in terms. The unborn children have no say in the matter.

So instead the woman has no say in the matter.

Uh, yeah. She definitely had a say in it.

What if it was rape? What if the pregnancy is threatening the mother's health?
01-23-2018 12:00 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #42
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
If anyone cares, here is the legal history in the US of abortion.

From independence through the mid 19th century abortion was legal from conception to quickening (perceived movement) that meant legal until around 15 to 20 weeks.

The move to criminalize all abortion was begun by the American Medical Association, seeking to classify it as a medical procedure to only be performed by a licensed physician. This started late 19th century and by 1900 was pretty much in place nationally.

After legislatures restricted the procedure to only physicians, states began imposing added restrictions to the point that some completely outlawed it. Ironically some states provided for criminal charges against the woman but none against the licensed physician performing it. Doctors could go into the business if they wanted to and faced no risk but their patients could be arrested and jailed.

Roe v Wade was written by Blackmun who had been chief counsel for the Mayo Clinic. For Justice Blackmun it was not the woman's right to choose that controlled the case but rather the interference with the doctor/patient relationship that was offensive in the state laws. Blackmun ended up cobbling together a majority on that premise though some justices who voted with him would have gone farther.

It became a personal choice in decisions that followed after Roe. It doesn't appear that Blackmun would agree that the existence of clinics to perform abortions where there is no ongoing relationship between doctor and patient conforms to what it was that offended his beliefs. He felt that a physician should have wide latitude in treatment without governmental interference.
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2018 12:08 PM by arkstfan.)
01-23-2018 12:06 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
(01-23-2018 09:47 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  If you dont believe life begins at conception, then you need to explain why you are denying science.

Science would say that both the sperm and the egg are as much "life" as the tiny clump of cells it starts off as.

It's going to be an arbitrary point in time, regardless of whether someone wants it to be a simple black and white question.
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2018 12:24 PM by NIU007.)
01-23-2018 12:23 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
(01-22-2018 09:58 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I’ll just never understand how one can be so sure in their viewpoints of another’s life. I’ve seen enough neglect in my life and yes never being born is a better existence than being neglected and abused mentally and physically. You guys think we have nightmare stories now with crappy parents. Make abortion illegal. That’s the ones that don’t want them. Now how about the people who are carrying children with chromosomalmdisorders. 1 out of 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage. Now throw a trisomy condition out there that is guaranteed to end in death. You want to force a mother to carry out a pregnancy. I will NEVER understand that. Now put yourself in the shoes of a parent who has a special needs child. Don’t you think that special needs kid is going to be better taken care of if the parents had a choice in if it went to term. Now how will that child be treated if the parents were forced to have the child by force of government? It just doesn’t make sense. No libertarian could be in favor of such an astounding invasion of ones privacy. It’s a medical privacy issue at heart.

So if not being born is better than being born to crappy parents, does that mean if a baby is born to crappy parents it's OK to kill that baby?
01-23-2018 12:57 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
(01-23-2018 12:23 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 09:47 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  If you dont believe life begins at conception, then you need to explain why you are denying science.

Science would say that both the sperm and the egg are as much "life" as the tiny clump of cells it starts off as.

It's going to be an arbitrary point in time, regardless of whether someone wants it to be a simple black and white question.

Until fertilized, it is just a sperm and egg.
01-23-2018 01:04 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
It really is black and white on science.

The grey area is when you get to determining when it should have "human rights." That's why I said I believe "human life" begins at conception. There is no doubt "life" begins at conception. Its a question of when it has a "soul" or a "defining human existence" or whatever it is that makes us people.
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2018 01:09 PM by bullet.)
01-23-2018 01:08 PM
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UofMstateU Online
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Post: #47
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
(01-23-2018 12:23 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 09:47 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  If you dont believe life begins at conception, then you need to explain why you are denying science.

Science would say that both the sperm and the egg are as much "life" as the tiny clump of cells it starts off as.

It's going to be an arbitrary point in time, regardless of whether someone wants it to be a simple black and white question.

What does science say happens when the egg and sperm come together?

Bill Nye says you should be imprisoned for denying science.
01-23-2018 01:11 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
(01-23-2018 12:23 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-23-2018 09:47 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  If you dont believe life begins at conception, then you need to explain why you are denying science.

Science would say that both the sperm and the egg are as much "life" as the tiny clump of cells it starts off as.

It's going to be an arbitrary point in time, regardless of whether someone wants it to be a simple black and white question.

There are two basic points during a humans development... Fertilization and Death

Everything else is a small series of infinitesimally small changes. By the time a woman knows she is pregnant between 8-12 days have passed post fertaliuzation. By day 12 differentiation is already occurring. By week 3 you have histogenesis going on.

To say "well anything is arbitrary" when, by the time one misses a period, you already have differentiation and by the time one would see a doctor you have histogenesis is, at best, deceptive.
01-23-2018 01:23 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #49
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
(01-23-2018 01:08 PM)bullet Wrote:  It really is black and white on science.

The grey area is when you get to determining when it should have "human rights." That's why I said I believe "human life" begins at conception. There is no doubt "life" begins at conception. Its a question of when it has a "soul" or a "defining human existence" or whatever it is that makes us people.

It gets super complicated.
Many people going through IVF have frozen embryos sitting in a doctor's office and what happens if they don't use them all is a damn legal mess.

There was a case not a long ago where a woman gave birth to her dead husband's child four years after he died and then tried to claim Social Security survivor benefits.

Freaking science is outrunning the law on this stuff.
01-23-2018 01:56 PM
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hoopfan Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
(01-23-2018 12:00 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 08:36 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 04:57 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 03:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 02:38 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  You mean a pro-life group rather than a pro-death group.

But I'm sure the pro-death group would be completely unbiased.

Pro-Choice is kind of a contradiction in terms. The unborn children have no say in the matter.

So instead the woman has no say in the matter.

Uh, yeah. She definitely had a say in it.

What if it was rape? What if the pregnancy is threatening the mother's health?

then the number of abortions in America would be an almost immeasurable statistic.
01-23-2018 02:32 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
(01-23-2018 12:00 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  What if it was rape? What if the pregnancy is threatening the mother's health?

Would you agree only to allow abortion in the case of Rape or life of the mother NIU?
01-23-2018 03:37 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
(01-23-2018 12:00 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 08:36 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 04:57 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 03:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 02:38 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  You mean a pro-life group rather than a pro-death group.

But I'm sure the pro-death group would be completely unbiased.

Pro-Choice is kind of a contradiction in terms. The unborn children have no say in the matter.

So instead the woman has no say in the matter.

Uh, yeah. She definitely had a say in it.

What if it was rape? What if the pregnancy is threatening the mother's health?

What if it's not? Cuz in over 97% of abortion cases it ain't.
01-24-2018 02:09 AM
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Post: #53
RE: Most Democrats support abortion restrictions
http://thefederalist.com/2018/01/22/frie...-abortion/

Good first person read on how a pro-choice person became pro-life.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2018 08:19 AM by bullet.)
01-24-2018 08:18 AM
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