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The retired jersey debate
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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 11:31 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 10:59 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  That is for one year with the exception of Oscar. That gets you a banner on the wall.

Retired jersey numbers are not for one year of accolades. They are for the entire body of work on and off the court from the time you walked on to campus.

Ok, but as far as one year goes, that doesn't come close to describing Logan.

I think there is a tendency now to underrate Logan's career at UC. He was also the key guy his Junior year...the team took off when he wrestled control from Satterfield. And he WON CUSA player of the year as a Junior and Senior. He was a key bench player on the best UC team of the modern era and even played a huge role as a freshman. He's 3rd all time in scoring at UC and if I remember correctly somewhere in the top 5 in assists (I can't find this if anyone can help). Logan was a spectacular Bearcat.

I posted that in response to Doss' list of AA seasons. I'm not discounting Logan's career.
 
01-16-2018 11:43 AM
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Topkat Offline
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Post: #22
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 10:15 AM)doss2 Wrote:  Consensus 1st Team All-Americans[edit]
1958, 1959, 1960 – Oscar Robertson
1963 – Ron Bonham
1963 – Tom Thacker
1997 – Danny Fortson
2000 – Kenyon Martin
2002 – Steve Logan

I would go with Bonham.

He was All-MVC in all 3 seasons he played and an First Team AA his Junior year, Second Team AA his senior year.... along with a National Title.

Keep in mind the guys from the 60's could not play as Frosh (I think Kilpatrick put up 300+ points his Frosh year).

Also, with added scheduling (and Conference Tourneys) the guys today play 20-25 more games in their Soph thru Senior years than the guys in the 1960's. Kilpatrick got in 20 more games than Bonham in his Sophomore thru Senior years.

For modern players, 30 games their Frosh year + 20 more over their Sophomore thru Senior seasons can do hefty damage to the 1,000 point club.
 
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2018 01:30 PM by Topkat.)
01-16-2018 11:52 AM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: The retired jersey debate
I said this on the board back in 2010 and it holds even more weight in the current societal environment....doubtful Logan has his number retired after being arrested by the US Marshal Fugitive Task Force for rape despite the fact that the charges were completely dismissed the following year. Sucks but there it is.
 
01-16-2018 12:20 PM
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jarr Offline
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Post: #24
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 11:52 AM)Topkat Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 10:15 AM)doss2 Wrote:  Consensus 1st Team All-Americans[edit]
1958, 1959, 1960 – Oscar Robertson
1963 – Ron Bonham
1963 – Tom Thacker
1997 – Danny Fortson
2000 – Kenyon Martin
2002 – Steve Logan

I would go with Bonham.

He was All-MVC in all 3 seasons he played and an AA his Junior year, second team AA his senior year.... along with a National Title.

Keep in mind the guys from the 60's could not play as Frosh (I think Kilpatrick put up 300+ points his Frosh year).

Also, with added scheduling (and Conference Tourneys) the guys today play 20-25 more games in their Soph thru Senior years than the guys in the 1960's. Kilpatrick got in 20 more games than Bonham in his Sophomore thru Senior years.

For modern players, 30 games their Frosh year + 20 more over their Sophomore thru Senior seasons does hefty damage to the 1,000 point club.

I agree. Just go and look at what Bonham accomplished and his stats for those years. He probably has more of a case than anyone. He also won a NBA championship with the Celtics.

Another interesting note about Tom Thacker. Only player to ever win a NCAA, NBA, and ABA championship.

I think NVE might have a case because of his NBA career and the two teams he was on were so successful, after such a long time of sucking.

With that said, I like the exclusivity of it, and the only player that may have a legitimate case would be Bonham.
 
01-16-2018 12:20 PM
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Post: #25
RE: The retired jersey debate
Totally agree that Bonham has the best case. Too bad he has passed.

He averaged 19.6 per game. Had there been a 3 point line add 4 points per game.
 
01-16-2018 12:39 PM
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Post: #26
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 09:42 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Of the modern era Bearcats I'd retire:
1. Logan
2. Fortson
3. SK

I'd do it in that order, but I think all three have great cases and earned it with their on court play. Logan's senior season I thought was better than Williams who was the consensus NPOY. Logan lead a bunch of role players to a conference title, conference tournament title and 1 seed in the NCAA tournament. Go back and look at the number of top 50/top 100 wins that team had over the course of the season...it is staggering how accomplished they were with really 1 consistent offensive threat (Stokes was hit or miss, though when he was on he was great). They finished 7 in kenpom adjusted offense and 3rd in kenpom adjusted defense (2nd overall in kenpom). For that roster to be 7th in adjusted offense is just insane to me and says so much for Logan.

By comparison Kilpatrick's senior season UC finished 98 in adjusted offense. He was a one man wrecking crew on that end, but didn't make teammates better the way Logan did. People may get on Logan's defense, but its clear his teams didn't suffer because of it. He understood how to play defense and did though not spectacular held up his end. I think there is a tendency now to underrate Logan's career at UC. He was also the key guy his Junior year...the team took off when he wrestled control from Satterfield. He was a key bench player on the best UC team of the modern era and even played a huge role as a freshman. Logan was a spectacular Bearcat.

x2

Fortson/Logan are close for me. I could go either way
Logan's Senior Year was special. It's a shame they ran into UCLA and had an off day. I think they could have won it all with the right draw.

I think SK is a distant third. I may even put Gary Clark ahead of SK.
 
01-16-2018 12:45 PM
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levydl Offline
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Post: #27
RE: The retired jersey debate
I don't understand those who favor such exclusivity. UC won back-to-back titles and was runner-up the next year and none of those players is worthy of having a jersey on the wall? How silly is that? Retiring Sean Kilpatrick's number would degrade the honor? Logan's? Fortson's? Come on.
 
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2018 01:33 PM by levydl.)
01-16-2018 01:33 PM
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bearcatmark Online
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Post: #28
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 01:33 PM)levydl Wrote:  I don't understand those who favor such exclusivity. UC won back-to-back titles and was runner-up the next year and none of those players is worthy of having a jersey on the wall? How silly is that? Retiring Sean Kilpatrick's number would degrade the honor? Logan's? Fortson's? Come on.

agree.. Don't overdo it but uc has very worthy people that wouldn't make the honor any less special.
 
01-16-2018 01:41 PM
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CliftonAve Online
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Post: #29
RE: The retired jersey debate
I think we need to do more to honor the players who were special players here. Our history is being lost folks... there's a whole sizeable portion of our fan base who could not tell you who Reuben Patterson was, let alone Ron Bonham or Tom Thacker. I agree with levydl about this bizarre obsession with exclusivity. We need a Hall of Fame, ROH, etc. to memorialize these guys and keep our fan base educated on Bearcat lore.
 
01-16-2018 01:41 PM
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robertfoshizzle Offline
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Post: #30
RE: The retired jersey debate
I'm personally not a huge fan of retiring numbers, so I like it to be exclusive if we are going to do it at all. But I am all for honoring Bearcats legends, even if they aren't quite jersey retirement material. I'm not sure where you draw the line though.
 
01-16-2018 01:50 PM
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Post: #31
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 01:50 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  I'm personally not a huge fan of retiring numbers, so I like it to be exclusive if we are going to do it at all. But I am all for honoring Bearcats legends, even if they aren't quite jersey retirement material. I'm not sure where you draw the line though.

Yeah that's my feelings as well. There are only so many numbers to go around. I am in favor of honoring the players through a Ring of Honor type system (and while I mentioned it above I am liking even more a UC Basketball HOF. There's a lot of history there).
 
01-16-2018 01:54 PM
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dubcat14 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 01:54 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 01:50 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  I'm personally not a huge fan of retiring numbers, so I like it to be exclusive if we are going to do it at all. But I am all for honoring Bearcats legends, even if they aren't quite jersey retirement material. I'm not sure where you draw the line though.

Yeah that's my feelings as well. There are only so many numbers to go around. I am in favor of honoring the players through a Ring of Honor type system (and while I mentioned it above I am liking even more a UC Basketball HOF. There's a lot of history there).

thats exactly what I'm saying.. UC has more than enough history to make a HOF exhibit. Not sure if theres enough space within the arena but it'd be very cool to have somewhere and could enhance the gameday experience.

I didn't start following UC until the late 2000's and without Wikipedia couldn't tell you much about the 90s or earlier - I just know they were in about a dozen conferences throughout history with all the banners on the old wall.

Jersey retirement is exclusive and I get that but we can't forget the history. Showcase the national championship teams with exhibits, displays, video, interactions, etc. Same with the likes of SK and the late 90s greats.
 
01-16-2018 01:59 PM
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Post: #33
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 01:54 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 01:50 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  I'm personally not a huge fan of retiring numbers, so I like it to be exclusive if we are going to do it at all. But I am all for honoring Bearcats legends, even if they aren't quite jersey retirement material. I'm not sure where you draw the line though.

Yeah that's my feelings as well. There are only so many numbers to go around. I am in favor of honoring the players through a Ring of Honor type system (and while I mentioned it above I am liking even more a UC Basketball HOF. There's a lot of history there).

This. It needs to get done and if there is simply no concourse space left in 5th/3rd Arena there is abundant lobby space in the Lindner VV Building that could be re-purposed to meet this need with that area remaining open for all games, day or night.
 
01-16-2018 02:10 PM
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RealDeal Offline
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Post: #34
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 01:54 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 01:50 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  I'm personally not a huge fan of retiring numbers, so I like it to be exclusive if we are going to do it at all. But I am all for honoring Bearcats legends, even if they aren't quite jersey retirement material. I'm not sure where you draw the line though.

Yeah that's my feelings as well. There are only so many numbers to go around. I am in favor of honoring the players through a Ring of Honor type system (and while I mentioned it above I am liking even more a UC Basketball HOF. There's a lot of history there).
+1, especially since college only lets you sure digits 1-5 you've cut the potential numbers in half. Ring of honor for all the guys mentioned and every number besides 12 can be worn.
 
01-16-2018 02:14 PM
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BigDawg Offline
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Post: #35
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 01:41 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I think we need to do more to honor the players who were special players here. Our history is being lost folks... there's a whole sizeable portion of our fan base who could not tell you who Reuben Patterson was, let alone Ron Bonham or Tom Thacker. I agree with levydl about this bizarre obsession with exclusivity. We need a Hall of Fame, ROH, etc. to memorialize these guys and keep our fan base educated on Bearcat lore.

Yeah...I'd love to see them incorporate past players and accolades into the rebuild. Retired jerseys should not be easy to come by, but I could argue them adding Thacker, Fortson, Logan and SK.

But honestly, let's have some sort of Ring of Honor for those special players that deserve to be remembered since we have extremely lofty standards for retiring of jerseys.
 
01-16-2018 02:27 PM
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levydl Offline
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Post: #36
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 02:10 PM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 01:54 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 01:50 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  I'm personally not a huge fan of retiring numbers, so I like it to be exclusive if we are going to do it at all. But I am all for honoring Bearcats legends, even if they aren't quite jersey retirement material. I'm not sure where you draw the line though.

Yeah that's my feelings as well. There are only so many numbers to go around. I am in favor of honoring the players through a Ring of Honor type system (and while I mentioned it above I am liking even more a UC Basketball HOF. There's a lot of history there).

This. It needs to get done and if there is simply no concourse space left in 5th/3rd Arena there is abundant lobby space in the Lindner VV Building that could be re-purposed to meet this need with that area remaining open for all games, day or night.

There should be prominent displays of UC basketball's history in the arena, where they play the games. A HOF would be cool, but no one would go. Ten thousand people go to the arena 20 times a year, put it right there where they are.

Make a statue of Kenyon with his head above the rim blocking a shot. Put that image of Oscar doing the splits as the shaded background on the court. This program needs some fun and self-promotion.
 
01-16-2018 02:38 PM
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Post: #37
RE: The retired jersey debate
Add
1. Fortson
2. SK

thats it for now
 
(This post was last modified: 01-16-2018 02:43 PM by Bearcats#1.)
01-16-2018 02:43 PM
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QSECOFR Offline
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Post: #38
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 12:20 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I said this on the board back in 2010 and it holds even more weight in the current societal environment....doubtful Logan has his number retired after being arrested by the US Marshal Fugitive Task Force for rape despite the fact that the charges were completely dismissed the following year. Sucks but there it is.

Logan was also arrested while at UC for underage drinking. Obviously, it was not a serious offense.

The other strike against Logan was that during his sophomore year, he quit the team for 5 days. Huggs talked him into coming back.

People also forget that Danny was with Art during the famous horse punching incident. The charges against Danny were dropped while Art had to go to court.

For me, Sean put up great stats and is one the finest representatives of UC that you could ever find. #23 should be retired as well as some of the other great players from the early 60's.

Lastly, why there isn't some sort of statue of George Smith on campus has always puzzled me.
 
01-16-2018 02:49 PM
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Post: #39
RE: The retired jersey debate
No to any other jersey retirements.

It should be a super-elite honor to have your jersey retired.

Great programs are defined by their high standards, not by the number of jerseys hanging on the wall.

Oscar, Martin, and Twyman are clearly a step above Kilpatrick, Van Exel, Logan, Fortson, etc.

If you don't think Twyman was way better than SK, remember that both his junior year (averaged 21.8 points and 16.5 rebounds) and his senior year (24.6 points and 16.5 rebounds) were better than any of Kilpatrick's seasons (20.6 points, 4.3 rebounds, and 2.3 assists his senior year). Tyman took UC to the Final Four of the NIT in his senior year (and back then, that was almost as impressive as the NCAA tourney - the team they lost to, Duquesne, ended up #6 in the final AP poll). Twyman also had a Hall-of-Fame NBA career for the Cincinnati Royals and was a model citizen.
 
01-16-2018 02:55 PM
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CliftonAve Online
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Post: #40
RE: The retired jersey debate
(01-16-2018 02:49 PM)QSECOFR Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 12:20 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I said this on the board back in 2010 and it holds even more weight in the current societal environment....doubtful Logan has his number retired after being arrested by the US Marshal Fugitive Task Force for rape despite the fact that the charges were completely dismissed the following year. Sucks but there it is.

Logan was also arrested while at UC for underage drinking. Obviously, it was not a serious offense.

The other strike against Logan was that during his sophomore year, he quit the team for 5 days. Huggs talked him into coming back.

People also forget that Danny was with Art during the famous horse punching incident. The charges against Danny were dropped while Art had to go to court.

For me, Sean put up great stats and is one the finest representatives of UC that you could ever find. #23 should be retired as well as some of the other great players from the early 60's.

Lastly, why there isn't some sort of statue of George Smith on campus has always puzzled me.

Agree Smith needs to be memorialized. Not only was he the architect of the program that ultimately won the NC's and was a runner up, he was an AD for 15 years. He was in coaching or administration at UC from 1948-1980.

One nugget of trivia, Smith also coached freshman football at UC in 1948. He designed and patented an iron face-bar, which was a forerunner to the facemask we have today.
 
01-16-2018 02:59 PM
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