(12-24-2017 01:05 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(12-23-2017 07:09 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-23-2017 06:50 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  

(12-23-2017 06:32 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-23-2017 06:11 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  You know I am convinced. We need to invite Liberty to our conference if for no other reason except maybe Tom would find something else for entertainment. Dude you are a wasted space and I think if you weren't gay you still would be. Wow bet you would be a blast a party. If you guys would promise not to quote him we could all put him on ignore and we could go back to slamming each other's football teams. That's what this site is for right?

Again, isn't that what Liberty supporters are all about? Banning LGBT people from existing in any meaningful way? Seems to me that would be a lot like your Athletic Departments. BTW, I think Ark State's AD is probably a bit too smart than to schedule Liberty. I figured Troy would be number 1 and Georgia Southern I suspected would take the bait.

Pretty easy to get us to STFU....stop making us pay for it. Then you can continue to run FBS athletics as your personal preserve without any input from us.

You have every right to speak. It's just that this is not the right forum. Sports are why we are here. Of course like I said I think you just like to *****. I never root against an SBC team OOC. When your team plays Liberty I will be saying "Go Flames!!" Aren't you glad your speech can have an effect on someone. Bye...tired of this and you.

Again, I seriously doubt you'll ever get the opportunity to say "Go Flames" versus USA, unless we're playing Illinois Chicago in basketball.

A question for you, does Arkansas State charge a student fee for athletics system wide or simply to the 14k students in Jonesboro? Trying to figure out the exact student subsidy for a 4 year degree to cover athletics there. Before you get all upset about feedback, remember that almost a grand per year per student at your Jonesboro campus is used not for academics, not for general student activities, but to support athletics. Its unreasonable to expect groups to be excluded from the benefits of that funding without complaint forever.

There are things that you guys could do, that don't really cost a lot of money, that could be helpful to get more of the funders of your program on board with the benefits of it. Not playing Liberty would be one thing. Actually meeting with various student groups that aren't engaged in your athletic program would be another. Neither costs money and could save untold grief down the road.

Does Arkansas State charge over 8 grand in fees for a 4 year degree (in state)? Is over half of that to cover athletic deficits? My guess is that Arkansas State uses taxpayer funds to cover some of their deficit, especially for scholarships, but if you take the allocation and apply it over 4 years to the Jonesboro campus only..I'm getting a truly large number here. And Arkansas State's subsidy numbers are actually better than anyone else's.

Dude...we have an absolute ton of people on our campus who absolutely hate that they spend money every year that goes to finance our Athletic Department. Problem is, 95 percent of those people are Razorback fans, so we've made it very clear we don't care what they think and they are welcome to transfer if they don't like it.

We'd love to attract students who don't come to games to our events more, but the general thing is that the odds they show up at all are next to nil, so we don't really bother.

The thing we do, is we make sure that students get equal opportunity when it comes to something their fees pay for. They get access to things like our indoor practice facility, press box, and other athletic areas if they need them for student events, because they pay a small amount of money to finance our Athletic Department each semester. If they still don't like it, tough cookies, go somewhere else.

Are you a school that exists for the education of its students, or are you an institution primarily in business to support FBS football? At some level, does it really matter who they support on Saturday? Doesn't make them less of a stakeholder at Arkansas State University.

BTW, the people who don't like Arkansas State's subsidies are most likely those that aren't integrated into your athletic program (and probably aren't Razorback fans either - they probably don't really follow college athletics at all). The program isn't likely relevant to them. Least thing you could do is try to make the program as relevant as possible for them. I think you're close to treating them with contempt. Not a wise move.

I support USA as an educational institution. To the extent that athletics can of a general benefit to the ENTIRE community, then I'm willing to put up with some payments for that. I expect a sincere attempt to make sure that the benefits of that investment to be accessible to all groups on campus.

What's the ratio of education dollars versus athletic department subsidy amount at stAte? Is it one dollar out of every 12? Have people lost their damn minds? People have enough trouble affording college as it is....without this outsized expense, for which the benefits are concentrated in the hands of one particular group, without any apparent accountability to the people who pay it.

How do people shut out from State athletics benefit for their almost 1 grand per student per year subsidy of millions of dollars in football coaching salaries, or from tens of millions in football scholarships ,from which they are effectively excluded?

Its not a small amount. Its a third of your schools entire athletic budget. And football is the big driver of all of that. Kudos for having the lowest subsidy ratio in the Belt. But because you have a small main campus enrollment, that subsidy is spread out over a small number of students, thus making the actual payout per student relatively high.

WTF with use of facilities? You going to allow the Pakistani Cricket Association to hold a tournament on your game day field and mess it all up? What in God's name would the LGBT student association do with the press box at a football stadium? Please spare us. These facilities are either inappropriate for these groups, really aren't available, or are really superfluous to a student center or rec center.

Make the subsidy RELEVANT to the entire community or make it voluntary. Sounds reasonable to me. FBS football isn't part of a college degree...its a luxury. Its about time that the programs at least make some feeble attempt to include more of the students in its benefits. Does Arkansas State even attempt to get traditionally uninterested groups to even bother to show up at the games? Or do you guys just simply rely on the Greeks to show up (or more precisely - if state is like other schools - to get drunk in the parking lot outside, show up for the last part of the 2nd quarter, then leave 5 minutes into the 3rd quarter).

----

I think you're smarter than most in here. You guys just got hit with a 20 percent tax on some of your coaching salaries and probably huge hit to your athletic foundation's ability to market donations. Meanwhile, salaries are going up and you've got COA to account for. There's no more revenue coming in either. There's also going to be increasing pressure on tuition rates which will make further subsides more difficult, especially if you've got a significant portion of your student body fed up with paying them. It makes sense to try to bring them into the program, rather than shove them away. If there's a crisis (say a move by the Ark.legislature to severely limit the use of subsidies, a really rough patch of bad performance, or some scandal) you can't just try and get people on board by going to them when you have to, you should be building a relationship with them NOW so they'll support you in good times and bad.

At least Ark State's AD hasn't been dumb enough to push it, like Troy's and Georgia Southern's. Especially if there's absolutely no upside for them to do so.

(12-24-2017 01:23 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 01:05 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(12-23-2017 07:09 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-23-2017 06:50 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  

(12-23-2017 06:32 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Again, isn't that what Liberty supporters are all about? Banning LGBT people from existing in any meaningful way? Seems to me that would be a lot like your Athletic Departments. BTW, I think Ark State's AD is probably a bit too smart than to schedule Liberty. I figured Troy would be number 1 and Georgia Southern I suspected would take the bait.

Pretty easy to get us to STFU....stop making us pay for it. Then you can continue to run FBS athletics as your personal preserve without any input from us.

You have every right to speak. It's just that this is not the right forum. Sports are why we are here. Of course like I said I think you just like to *****. I never root against an SBC team OOC. When your team plays Liberty I will be saying "Go Flames!!" Aren't you glad your speech can have an effect on someone. Bye...tired of this and you.

Again, I seriously doubt you'll ever get the opportunity to say "Go Flames" versus USA, unless we're playing Illinois Chicago in basketball.

A question for you, does Arkansas State charge a student fee for athletics system wide or simply to the 14k students in Jonesboro? Trying to figure out the exact student subsidy for a 4 year degree to cover athletics there. Before you get all upset about feedback, remember that almost a grand per year per student at your Jonesboro campus is used not for academics, not for general student activities, but to support athletics. Its unreasonable to expect groups to be excluded from the benefits of that funding without complaint forever.

There are things that you guys could do, that don't really cost a lot of money, that could be helpful to get more of the funders of your program on board with the benefits of it. Not playing Liberty would be one thing. Actually meeting with various student groups that aren't engaged in your athletic program would be another. Neither costs money and could save untold grief down the road.

Does Arkansas State charge over 8 grand in fees for a 4 year degree (in state)? Is over half of that to cover athletic deficits? My guess is that Arkansas State uses taxpayer funds to cover some of their deficit, especially for scholarships, but if you take the allocation and apply it over 4 years to the Jonesboro campus only..I'm getting a truly large number here. And Arkansas State's subsidy numbers are actually better than anyone else's.

Dude...we have an absolute ton of people on our campus who absolutely hate that they spend money every year that goes to finance our Athletic Department. Problem is, 95 percent of those people are Razorback fans, so we've made it very clear we don't care what they think and they are welcome to transfer if they don't like it.

We'd love to attract students who don't come to games to our events more, but the general thing is that the odds they show up at all are next to nil, so we don't really bother.

The thing we do, is we make sure that students get equal opportunity when it comes to something their fees pay for. They get access to things like our indoor practice facility, press box, and other athletic areas if they need them for student events, because they pay a small amount of money to finance our Athletic Department each semester. If they still don't like it, tough cookies, go somewhere else.

Are you a school that exists for the education of its students, or are you an institution primarily in business to support FBS football? At some level, does it really matter who they support on Saturday? Doesn't make them less of a stakeholder at Arkansas State University.

BTW, the people who don't like Arkansas State's subsidies are most likely those that aren't integrated into your athletic program (and probably aren't Razorback fans either - they probably don't really follow college athletics at all). The program isn't likely relevant to them. Least thing you could do is try to make the program as relevant as possible for them. I think you're close to treating them with contempt. Not a wise move.

I support USA as an educational institution. To the extent that athletics can of a general benefit to the ENTIRE community, then I'm willing to put up with some payments for that. I expect a sincere attempt to make sure that the benefits of that investment to be accessible to all groups on campus.

What's the ratio of education dollars versus athletic department subsidy amount at stAte? Is it one dollar out of every 12? Have people lost their damn minds? People have enough trouble affording college as it is....without this outsized expense, for which the benefits are concentrated in the hands of one particular group, without any apparent accountability to the people who pay it.

How do people shut out from State athletics benefit for their almost 1 grand per student per year subsidy of millions of dollars in football coaching salaries, or from tens of millions in football scholarships ,from which they are effectively excluded?

Its not a small amount. Its a third of your schools entire athletic budget. And football is the big driver of all of that. Kudos for having the lowest subsidy ratio in the Belt. But because you have a small main campus enrollment, that subsidy is spread out over a small number of students, thus making the actual payout per student relatively high.

WTF with use of facilities? You going to allow the Pakistani Cricket Association to hold a tournament on your game day field and mess it all up? What in God's name would the LGBT student association do with the press box at a football stadium? Please spare us. These facilities are either inappropriate for these groups, really aren't available, or are really superfluous to a student center or rec center.

Make the subsidy RELEVANT to the entire community or make it voluntary. Sounds reasonable to me. FBS football isn't part of a college degree...its a luxury. Its about time that the programs at least make some feeble attempt to include more of the students in its benefits. Does Arkansas State even attempt to get traditionally uninterested groups to even bother to show up at the games? Or do you guys just simply rely on the Greeks to show up (or more precisely - if state is like other schools - to get drunk in the parking lot outside, show up for the last part of the 2nd quarter, then leave 5 minutes into the 3rd quarter).

----

I think you're smarter than most in here. You guys just got hit with a 20 percent tax on some of your coaching salaries and probably huge hit to your athletic foundation's ability to market donations. Meanwhile, salaries are going up and you've got COA to account for. There's no more revenue coming in either. There's also going to be increasing pressure on tuition rates which will make further subsides more difficult, especially if you've got a significant portion of your student body fed up with paying them. It makes sense to try to bring them into the program, rather than shove them away. If there's a crisis (say a move by the Ark.legislature to severely limit the use of subsidies, a really rough patch of bad performance, or some scandal) you can't just try and get people on board by going to them when you have to, you should be building a relationship with them NOW so they'll support you in good times and bad.

At least Ark State's AD hasn't been dumb enough to push it, like Troy's and Georgia Southern's. Especially if there's absolutely no upside for them to do so.

1. Arkansas State years ago was more of a commuter school, and had a ton of non traditional students. The Non Traditional students are statistically the most likely group to not be interested in paying an athletic subsidy. And while non sports fans in that group existed, the loudest group was a bunch of Razorback fans. So no, we didn't take them seriously. Recently we've moved to a more traditional style campus, and won that pushes Red Wolves from the minute a prospective student even looks at the school. Most First year students either have classes or Greek life activities that require them to attend athletic events. Most students now live on campus, and we're in an entirely different situation than we were 10 years ago.

2. The School's general philosophy to dealing with people complaining about Athletic Fees. has been to encourage them to attend sporting events. Many don't, and we have millions of programs available for those students. Most of those programs charge student fees as well. There's a fee for everything in college. Generally speaking, we don't face large complaints here about athletic fees. We have a few outspoken...and as has been mentioned before, most of those are Razorback fans. But the number of complaints we get is an extreme minority.

3. I think you are trying to lump us in with South Alabama in terms of what our student population looks like. It's a very different base here. The LGBT population is pretty small, and we have a large number of international students. We have one of the best rugby programs in the country (Not considered part of Athletics) as a result of our large international student population. Simply put, the complaints you bring up. We don't hear. Because we're part of a state wide system, a lot of the type people who would oppose athletic fees don't enroll on the Jonesboro campus. They go to one of our numerous satellite campuses throughout the state.

4. Access to facilities? Yes. The Rugby club has been able to use our football field in the past for matches whenever conditions are poor on their field. The Indoor Practice Facility can be used for meetings and gatherings, and also hosts intramurals. Our Press Box has a large meeting space that gets regularly used during the week. Anything that a student fee pays for, by school policy, Arkansas State students get free and equal access. We don't get a lot of complaints as a result. We get a few, like every school, but generally speaking those complaints generally get shouted down by other students and teachers.

Side note: We're not expected to take much of a hit in regards to the recent tax passage. We simply don't have a ton of tickets that require an athletic donation. Large majority of our bought ticket packages do not require donations. There are a few, but those are the highest donors of the school to begin with, so they already donate heavily.

(12-22-2017 12:52 PM)CoachWillRob Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 12:10 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  LOL at all the hate for Liberty. It's a football opponent, one that's at least decent.

I find it comical too. The hate isn't because of the talent of their football team or athletics, but because the school has a specific belief and moral standard that they stand by.

Well there is also the academic thing, you know, the diploma mill and admissions issues.

(12-24-2017 10:05 AM)fjblair Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 12:52 PM)CoachWillRob Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 12:10 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  LOL at all the hate for Liberty. It's a football opponent, one that's at least decent.

I find it comical too. The hate isn't because of the talent of their football team or athletics, but because the school has a specific belief and moral standard that they stand by.

Well there is also the academic thing, you know, the diploma mill and admissions issues.

I am a scientist and honestly have a bigger issue with young earth creationism as a cornerstone of the school’s curriculum than I do any of the other stuff. At least their ‘standards’ can be attributed to strongly held beliefs...often misguided, IMHO, but I know plenty of folks who have them and will be respectful as long as they stop short of infringing on others’ rights. Willful ignorance of facts is another thing entirely to me.

Some previous posts by Liberty fans have led me to believe that maybe the school is moving away from this a bit, which would be good (and necessary, if biology research at the school ever needs to expand beyond work that has to fit a young earth view).

As far as scheduling them, meh, I’d probably rather not, but there’s a good chance we will at some point, and it isn’t gonna make me lose any sleep. I’d kinda like to get a revenge game in, actually. And they’ve been fine opponents in other sports.

(12-24-2017 10:05 AM)fjblair Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 12:52 PM)CoachWillRob Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 12:10 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  LOL at all the hate for Liberty. It's a football opponent, one that's at least decent.

I find it comical too. The hate isn't because of the talent of their football team or athletics, but because the school has a specific belief and moral standard that they stand by.

Well there is also the academic thing, you know, the diploma mill and admissions issues.

There as much of a diploma mill as App State is.

(12-24-2017 01:23 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  How do people shut out from State athletics benefit for their almost 1 grand per student per year subsidy of millions of dollars in football coaching salaries, or from tens of millions in football scholarships ,from which they are effectively excluded?

How do people benefit from having the military use taxpayer money to pay for gender reassignment surgeries for members of our military?

In the US, we are ALL often forced to pay for things which do not benefit us.

That's the way our country works.

Get used to it, or get out.

(12-24-2017 02:48 PM)asuwon Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 01:23 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  How do people shut out from State athletics benefit for their almost 1 grand per student per year subsidy of millions of dollars in football coaching salaries, or from tens of millions in football scholarships ,from which they are effectively excluded?

How do people benefit from having the military use taxpayer money to pay for gender reassignment surgeries for members of our military?

In the US, we are ALL often forced to pay for things which do not benefit us.

That's the way our country works.

Get used to it, or get out.

There's a difference between size and scope here. First of all, healthcare is considered part of the deal for our Veterans. And a military is considered essential spending. Our military veterans EARNED that payment through their contributions to our defense, which is shared by us all. We all share in that benefit.

FBS football is a luxury and its benefits don't ever trickle down to the international students, LGBT kids, and to the overwhelming majority of non-Christians. You'd be wise to remember that. There's absolutely no reason why someone should be forced to pay up to 12% extra for a completely superfluous activity in order to attend their public state university. The only way you'll keep that subsidy long term is to respect those who are paying it and make it relevant to the people paying it. There is no benefit to FBS football for many of your students. They aren't being hired as coaches and they're locked out of the scholarships too. Why fund it at all, much less at 4 grand per undergraduate degree.

I think your Athletic Department gets it better than most in the conference.

Come on guys I have him on ignore...it's a nice place to be. In any other thread you can still see what he says as long as it's sports related. He actually makes sense in those.

(12-24-2017 03:46 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 02:48 PM)asuwon Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 01:23 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  How do people shut out from State athletics benefit for their almost 1 grand per student per year subsidy of millions of dollars in football coaching salaries, or from tens of millions in football scholarships ,from which they are effectively excluded?

How do people benefit from having the military use taxpayer money to pay for gender reassignment surgeries for members of our military?

In the US, we are ALL often forced to pay for things which do not benefit us.

That's the way our country works.

Get used to it, or get out.

There's a difference between size and scope here. First of all, healthcare is considered part of the deal for our Veterans. And a military is considered essential spending. Our military veterans EARNED that payment through their contributions to our defense, which is shared by us all. We all share in that benefit.

So... gender reassignment is now considered "healthcare" in the LGBT world?

(12-24-2017 03:46 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 02:48 PM)asuwon Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 01:23 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  How do people shut out from State athletics benefit for their almost 1 grand per student per year subsidy of millions of dollars in football coaching salaries, or from tens of millions in football scholarships ,from which they are effectively excluded?

How do people benefit from having the military use taxpayer money to pay for gender reassignment surgeries for members of our military?

In the US, we are ALL often forced to pay for things which do not benefit us.

That's the way our country works.

Get used to it, or get out.

There's a difference between size and scope here. First of all, healthcare is considered part of the deal for our Veterans. And a military is considered essential spending. Our military veterans EARNED that payment through their contributions to our defense, which is shared by us all. We all share in that benefit.

FBS football is a luxury and its benefits don't ever trickle down to the international students, LGBT kids, and to the overwhelming majority of non-Christians. You'd be wise to remember that. There's absolutely no reason why someone should be forced to pay up to 12% extra for a completely superfluous activity in order to attend their public state university. The only way you'll keep that subsidy long term is to respect those who are paying it and make it relevant to the people paying it. There is no benefit to FBS football for many of your students. They aren't being hired as coaches and they're locked out of the scholarships too. Why fund it at all, much less at 4 grand per undergraduate degree.

I think your Athletic Department gets it better than most in the conference.

The only students that benefit from FBS football are the football players themselves. I'm a straight Christian and FBS football doesn't benefit me at all. It's entertainment. Do I gain from it? No. Do I whine about it. No.

I guess I should be outraged though right?

A few points:

Not all alumni believe everything LU stands for.

The 10000 year thing is one course that also talks about evolution and it is a voluntary course.

Liberty has the same accreditations as the schools in the SBC. Some of the schools here have a large online (diploma mill) population as well (Troy). There is nothing wrong with it in my mind. I went to the University of South Carolina and the University of Louisville and both of them were just as hard as Liberty in my opinion. But that's an opinion and I'm sure plenty will disagree with me.

It's football. Nothing more, nothing less. I for one am excited to play GS. I think it is a game that is winnable for both teams and should go a long way in helping get bowl eligible.

(12-24-2017 04:00 PM)CardinalBlackTrojan Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 03:46 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 02:48 PM)asuwon Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 01:23 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  How do people shut out from State athletics benefit for their almost 1 grand per student per year subsidy of millions of dollars in football coaching salaries, or from tens of millions in football scholarships ,from which they are effectively excluded?

How do people benefit from having the military use taxpayer money to pay for gender reassignment surgeries for members of our military?

In the US, we are ALL often forced to pay for things which do not benefit us.

That's the way our country works.

Get used to it, or get out.

There's a difference between size and scope here. First of all, healthcare is considered part of the deal for our Veterans. And a military is considered essential spending. Our military veterans EARNED that payment through their contributions to our defense, which is shared by us all. We all share in that benefit.

So... gender reassignment is now considered "healthcare" in the LGBT world?

Elective surgery should not be part of any health insurance. Especially those footed by the citizens.

(12-24-2017 04:56 PM)Ewglenn Wrote:  A few points:

Not all alumni believe everything LU stands for.

The 10000 year thing is one course that also talks about evolution and it is a voluntary course.

Liberty has the same accreditations as the schools in the SBC. Some of the schools here have a large online (diploma mill) population as well (Troy). There is nothing wrong with it in my mind. I went to the University of South Carolina and the University of Louisville and both of them were just as hard as Liberty in my opinion. But that's an opinion and I'm sure plenty will disagree with me.

It's football. Nothing more, nothing less. I for one am excited to play GS. I think it is a game that is winnable for both teams and should go a long way in helping get bowl eligible.

I do appreciate the measured input from an LU fan. Just because I can’t help myself, though, I have to note that saying Liberty’s young earth stance is just one voluntary course is nowhere close to the whole story. There’s a research center devoted to it at the school as well as a minor offered. That’s not a good look when it comes to biology and geology, just like you’d doubt the merits of the virology curriculum at a school that had a Center for HIV and AIDS Are Unrelated. I actually do hope that there are enough forces at work to get LU to rethink its commitment to that cause.

(12-24-2017 05:29 PM)Fanof49ASU Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 04:00 PM)CardinalBlackTrojan Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 03:46 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 02:48 PM)asuwon Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 01:23 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  How do people shut out from State athletics benefit for their almost 1 grand per student per year subsidy of millions of dollars in football coaching salaries, or from tens of millions in football scholarships ,from which they are effectively excluded?

How do people benefit from having the military use taxpayer money to pay for gender reassignment surgeries for members of our military?

In the US, we are ALL often forced to pay for things which do not benefit us.

That's the way our country works.

Get used to it, or get out.

There's a difference between size and scope here. First of all, healthcare is considered part of the deal for our Veterans. And a military is considered essential spending. Our military veterans EARNED that payment through their contributions to our defense, which is shared by us all. We all share in that benefit.

So... gender reassignment is now considered "healthcare" in the LGBT world?

Elective surgery should not be part of any health insurance. Especially those footed by the citizens.

Yeah, that's a really terrible idea. Please don't run for President.

"I'm sorry sir, you cant get surgery to repair your debilitating back pain because its an elective surgery, and we American Citizens don't want to pay for something you don't have to have."

I see my definition of elective is somewhat different than yours. Back surgery can become a necessary surgery. Gender reassignment is elective, or chosen....which is unnecessary.

The elective surgeries that I’m aware of are mostly cosmetic, and aren’t necessary to maintain a normal, healthy lifestyle.

(12-24-2017 09:57 PM)Fanof49ASU Wrote:  I see my definition of elective is somewhat different than yours. Back surgery can become a necessary surgery. Gender reassignment is elective, or chosen....which is unnecessary.

The elective surgeries that I’m aware of are mostly cosmetic, and aren’t necessary to maintain a normal, healthy lifestyle.

Depends on the country. In some countries, any surgery that is not medically required can be considered "elective"

That's the danger of such a law. Health insurers can in theory pick and choose which surgeries are "elective" and which are not. In the case of medicare, you could essentially put a person's livelihood in the hands of whether or not the government thinks their surgery is "necessary"

I mean, I guess we could hope that insurance companies would do the right thing, but does anyone honestly want their health put into the hands of someone else?

(12-24-2017 08:49 PM)Pounce FTW Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 04:56 PM)Ewglenn Wrote:  A few points:

Not all alumni believe everything LU stands for.

The 10000 year thing is one course that also talks about evolution and it is a voluntary course.

Liberty has the same accreditations as the schools in the SBC. Some of the schools here have a large online (diploma mill) population as well (Troy). There is nothing wrong with it in my mind. I went to the University of South Carolina and the University of Louisville and both of them were just as hard as Liberty in my opinion. But that's an opinion and I'm sure plenty will disagree with me.

It's football. Nothing more, nothing less. I for one am excited to play GS. I think it is a game that is winnable for both teams and should go a long way in helping get bowl eligible.

I do appreciate the measured input from an LU fan. Just because I can’t help myself, though, I have to note that saying Liberty’s young earth stance is just one voluntary course is nowhere close to the whole story. There’s a research center devoted to it at the school as well as a minor offered. That’s not a good look when it comes to biology and geology, just like you’d doubt the merits of the virology curriculum at a school that had a Center for HIV and AIDS Are Unrelated. I actually do hope that there are enough forces at work to get LU to rethink its commitment to that cause.

The minor compares the differences between young earth and evolution. It says that on the minor description. I'll be honest I don't know much about it but I can say LU doesn't force it on their students.

When a thread on a sports website gets to the point of talking about sex change surgeries and evolution, it's gone beyond stupid and just needs to die. What I love most about sports is that I can get away from politics and real world problems. But between the NFL and some compulsive posters pushing their political agenda on here, can't even do that. SMH

(12-24-2017 11:04 AM)CardinalBlackTrojan Wrote:  

(12-24-2017 10:05 AM)fjblair Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 12:52 PM)CoachWillRob Wrote:  

(12-22-2017 12:10 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  LOL at all the hate for Liberty. It's a football opponent, one that's at least decent.

I find it comical too. The hate isn't because of the talent of their football team or athletics, but because the school has a specific belief and moral standard that they stand by.

Well there is also the academic thing, you know, the diploma mill and admissions issues.

There as much of a diploma mill as App State is.

False

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