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Coach K is garbage
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FMRocket Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Coach K is garbage
(12-09-2017 09:40 PM)RocketBBallFan Wrote:  
(12-09-2017 09:36 PM)adunifon Wrote:  
(12-09-2017 09:31 PM)RocketBBallFan Wrote:  I will be the there cheering them on the rest of the season. If you want to give up on them, that's your choice.


Judging by the crowd tonight, it’ll be you and a few others in attendance the rest of the way.

That's fine. Even if I'm the only one, I'll be there.

That is commendable on your part...
But being happy with the status quo is something I would want no part of ...
This team has decent potential but saddled with subpar coaching...
(This post was last modified: 12-09-2017 10:53 PM by FMRocket.)
12-09-2017 10:45 PM
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RocketBBallFan Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Coach K is garbage
(12-09-2017 10:45 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  
(12-09-2017 09:40 PM)RocketBBallFan Wrote:  
(12-09-2017 09:36 PM)adunifon Wrote:  
(12-09-2017 09:31 PM)RocketBBallFan Wrote:  I will be the there cheering them on the rest of the season. If you want to give up on them, that's your choice.


Judging by the crowd tonight, it’ll be you and a few others in attendance the rest of the way.

That's fine. Even if I'm the only one, I'll be there.

That is commendable on your part...
But being happy with the status quo is something I would want no part of ...
This team has decent potential but saddled with subpar coaching...

Continuing to attend games and cheer for the team does not mean that I am happy with the status quo. Of course, I want them to play better, reach their potential, and win the MAC Tournament. I won't be able to see them do that if I stop attending and watching games, however.
(This post was last modified: 12-09-2017 10:59 PM by RocketBBallFan.)
12-09-2017 10:59 PM
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Toledo Football 1st Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Coach K is garbage
(12-09-2017 09:50 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Not personable +
Bad at coaching in close game situations + only preaching offense +
No use of bench =
No me at games

If we win a MAC west title. Ive been proven wrong. If we go .500 to the tune of a 7 seed??? Bring back Joplin.

Not that that would happen, but I can vividly recall some of Joplin's teams routinely blowing 20+ point leads and losing and asking myself, "How could they do that?".

I don't know that answer, but I've noticed that same thing FMRocket mentioned. Why not just stick with what got you where you are? It's like it's some textbook thing he has in his head that he thinks he should to do--but it doesn't work. Maybe for that to work you have to be able to play good defense.
12-09-2017 11:03 PM
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inductchuck16 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Coach K is garbage
Gotta get to the Big Dance this year. No matter how pathetic tonight's performance was, you just have to be hot and win 3-4 games in March.
12-09-2017 11:03 PM
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pono Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Coach K is garbage
ok there were 2 things that happened tonight

1) we pissed away a good win at home playing weak down the stretch. embarrassing. unfortunately, it's more on fletcher making a bad pass. sanford getting ripped a couple times. navigato going 0-6 on threes, than coaching. but, yeah, as a pattern, coach k's team's tend to finish games like this the past few years.

2) for the first time this season, and really in a few years, coach k gave his bench more of a role. some of that was foul trouble. some was sticking with rose and gordon and putting roberts in at the 15:29 mark of the first half.

so, tonight was same old give up the game story, but also a new look team at times. i'm troubled by the loss, but there is potential here. can they learn?
12-09-2017 11:18 PM
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FMRocket Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Coach K is garbage
Years ago when K first got the job, I went over and perused the Wisconsin(Green Bay) board to get a feel on what their fan base thought of their departing coach. Most comments were fairly positive, but was surprised at some being less flattering. Something along the lines of K being self-serving, and going out of his way to pat himself on the back, and when things went south ultimately throwing players under the bus...
Interesting stuff for sure...
12-09-2017 11:24 PM
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H2Oville Rocket Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Coach K is garbage
(12-09-2017 11:24 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  Years ago when K first got the job, I went over and perused the Wisconsin(Green Bay) board to get a feel on what their fan base thought of their departing coach. Most comments were fairly positive, but was surprised at some being less flattering. Something along the lines of K being self-serving, and going out of his way to pat himself on the back, and when things went south ultimately throwing players under the bus...
Interesting stuff for sure...

People keep talking about throwing players under the bus and never taking blame. I just posted Coach K's comment about poor preparation on his part and I've posted other examples in previous years. I find him very personable and his anti-Amstutz comments honest and thoughtful as opposed to the usual coach-speak. These men get over 20,000 a year in schollie money to play- they can take a little criticism. Missed tonight's game but did notice what Pomo said- more bench minutes, which is good and shows some adjustment- prior to tonight we had 3 of the MAC's top 4 in minutes per game. Still, I tire of poor defensive schemes and effort. I'll be at most games and hope he succeeds but will not be crushed if he leaves. BTW, my name is on the building, too. If you go to the north east men's room, in the second-to-last stall, scratched into the left side wall....
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2017 12:12 AM by H2Oville Rocket.)
12-10-2017 12:12 AM
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RocketBBallFan Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Coach K is garbage
I just want to add that if you want to criticize TK's coaching, that's fair, but it is not necessary to say that he is "garbage." He runs a clean program with academics that are in the top 10 percent in the country. A person who does those things does not deserve to be called "garbage."
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2017 01:11 AM by RocketBBallFan.)
12-10-2017 01:08 AM
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UofToledoFans Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Coach K is garbage
Oh gosh 80 percent, probs way higher have a Zclean program. Thats not what we are searching for.. If so
Higher a janitor. Lets get to the dance and not blow games we have no business losing
Hold a standard!
12-10-2017 01:44 AM
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eastisbest Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Coach K is garbage
"Milking the clock" was not invented by Coach K. It is a strategy used by any number of successful programs to dampen the rate of score change. Smart for the one in the lead. Not so smart for the one behind but will be used to get players rest for an attempt at come-back. It's not generally fun to watch. It generally requires crisp passing team that will stick to script and more than one strong ball handler. Maybe my accounting is off but we are thin not just in the paint. Sanford is NOT a pg, has neither the quicks nor the ball handling to be the pg of a conference and tournament leader. But if he's going to become adequate, the OCC is the time to work that.
12-10-2017 03:13 AM
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DetroitRocket Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Coach K is garbage
(12-10-2017 03:13 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  "Milking the clock" was not invented by Coach K. It is a strategy used by any number of successful programs to dampen the rate of score change. Smart for the one in the lead. Not so smart for the one behind but will be used to get players rest for an attempt at come-back. It's not generally fun to watch. It generally requires crisp passing team that will stick to script and more than one strong ball handler. Maybe my accounting is off but we are thin not just in the paint. Sanford is NOT a pg, has neither the quicks nor the ball handling to be the pg of a conference and tournament leader. But if he's going to become adequate, the OCC is the time to work that.

None of our PG's are great ball handlers. If you're going to run out the clock you need one. I am not a coach K fan because in all of his head coaching years he has never made it to the NCAA's. That is a pattern and unlikely to change. I also blame O'Brien for giving him contract extensions.
12-10-2017 04:49 AM
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H2Oville Rocket Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Coach K is garbage
(12-10-2017 03:13 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  "Milking the clock" was not invented by Coach K. It is a strategy used by any number of successful programs to dampen the rate of score change. Smart for the one in the lead. Not so smart for the one behind but will be used to get players rest for an attempt at come-back. It's not generally fun to watch. It generally requires crisp passing team that will stick to script and more than one strong ball handler. Maybe my accounting is off but we are thin not just in the paint. Sanford is NOT a pg, has neither the quicks nor the ball handling to be the pg of a conference and tournament leader. But if he's going to become adequate, the OCC is the time to work that.

He SHOULDN’T be a PG, and isn’t playing the point that much but he’s about as quick as we’ve got and is eighth in the MAC, and First on the exam, in assist/TO ratio. He shouldn’t play point because he’s better suited to slashing and spotting up on the wing, IMO, but he’s more than adequate at the point. I missed last night’s game and it sounds like maybe he was at PG more but Overall he’s looked OK there. We score a million points a game. Running he offense isn’t really our problem.
12-10-2017 06:01 AM
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T-Town Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Coach K is garbage
(12-10-2017 03:13 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  "Milking the clock" was not invented by Coach K. It is a strategy used by any number of successful programs to dampen the rate of score change. Smart for the one in the lead. Not so smart for the one behind but will be used to get players rest for an attempt at come-back. It's not generally fun to watch. It generally requires crisp passing team that will stick to script and more than one strong ball handler. Maybe my accounting is off but we are thin not just in the paint. Sanford is NOT a pg, has neither the quicks nor the ball handling to be the pg of a conference and tournament leader. But if he's going to become adequate, the OCC is the time to work that.

"Milking the Clock" works best when a team can slow the game down without completely turning off its offense which is what happened last night. I believe that Marshall scored the last 14 points of the game last night and that was NOT because Marshall suddenly discovered how to play defense with 5 minutes left in the game----they had some help----it was because they were playing a team that decided in the last 5 minutes that it was more important to run the shot clock down to zero than to score. Without stooping to name calling or hurling insults IMO this loss is squarely on a coaching decision and not on Sanford or the teams' inability to score when they only attempted to do so after the shot clock fell below ten seconds-----you might get away with that strategy against a team like Detroit but not against a team like Marshall.
12-10-2017 07:18 AM
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bcunn3128 Away
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Post: #34
RE: Coach K is garbage
Some of us are old enough to remember North Carolina teams running their “four corners offense” to near perfection to milk the clock. But with the advent of the shot clock, the strategy of trying to “milk the clock” isn’t nearly as effective if you have more than a couple minutes left in the game. Say a team has a 10-point lead and at the 5 minute mark they use a full 30 seconds on each possession; meanwhile, the other team scores quickly—say in 15 seconds. Then back & forth, in the same manner. If you “do the math”, there is plenty of time for the opposing team to not only eat into the lead but take the lead if the “milking” team only scores once or twice in their “milking” possessions.

Instead, I would rather have seen us continue to the attack the basket QUICKLY, and get the 5th foul on their #11 ( who was the reason they won imo). Milking the clock instead allowed him to sit back, watch ball movement easily, and prepare to guard the paint effectively, which he did, on at least 2 of our late possessions.

When you coach (or play) not to lose, it’s interesting how often you end up losing.

I wanted to see how we stacked up against Marshall because I think that bit more physical/ Athletic play is more like what we will face more often than not in the MAC. Even with foul trouble, and Sanford not being a major contributor, we still had the lead for I’m thinking about 32 minutes of a 40-minute game. That was good to see, going forward. But that last 5 minutes was terrible.
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2017 07:44 AM by bcunn3128.)
12-10-2017 07:43 AM
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H2Oville Rocket Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Coach K is garbage
(12-10-2017 07:43 AM)bcunn3128 Wrote:  Some of us are old enough to remember North Carolina teams running their “four corners offense” to near perfection to milk the clock. But with the advent of the shot clock, the strategy of trying to “milk the clock” isn’t nearly as effective if you have more than a couple minutes left in the game. Say a team has a 10-point lead and at the 5 minute mark they use a full 30 seconds on each possession; meanwhile, the other team scores quickly—say in 15 seconds. Then back & forth, in the same manner. If you “do the math”, there is plenty of time for the opposing team to not only eat into the lead but take the lead if the “milking” team only scores once or twice in their “milking” possessions.

Instead, I would rather have seen us continue to the attack the basket QUICKLY, and get the 5th foul on their #11 ( who was the reason they won imo). Milking the clock instead allowed him to sit back, watch ball movement easily, and prepare to guard the paint effectively, which he did, on at least 2 of our late possessions.

When you coach (or play) not to lose, it’s interesting how often you end up losing.

I wanted to see how we stacked up against Marshall because I think that bit more physical/ Athletic play is more like what we will face more often than not in the MAC. Even with foul trouble, and Sanford not being a major contributor, we still had the lead for I’m thinking about 32 minutes of a 40-minute game. That was good to see, going forward. But that last 5 minutes was terrible.

The shot clock really does affect slowing down play. The other team WILL get opportunities so you better score on some of your possessions. Sounds like last night was akin to playing six D backs ten yards off the line to preserve a two TD lead in football. Prevent defense, slow down offense- work sometimes but is costly if run poorly.
12-10-2017 07:51 AM
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Boca Rocket Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Coach K is garbage
I'll wait until the end of the season to render judgement. Rockets are 5-4, 4-1 at home,two of the losses are to Syracuse and #2 Kansas. 4 of the 10 Rockets on the floor last night were Freshmen. Differences last night were the turnovers, the poor 3 shooting, and the really bad call on the attempted timeout. Can't remember so many late calls by Officials. Team will be totally different experience-wise and cohesiveness by the end of the season.
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2017 08:05 AM by Boca Rocket.)
12-10-2017 08:05 AM
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Rocket75 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Coach K is garbage
I was at the game and a few things were obvious to us fans in the stands.

First of all, there was terrible interior defense by UT. Maybe we could have tried a zone to force Marshall outside. Maybe we can have put the twin towers in-Adway and Knapke- at the same time to block some shots. Basically Toledo just let Marshall run the floor and make layups

Secondly, the Marshall guards were too quick for Sanford. Jackson and Roberts should have been handling the ball,

The players did not seem to know how much time was on the shot clock. There were constant time outs in the last few minutes but it seemed like the players only knew they had to shoot when the fans started yelling out the seconds left. This is totally the fault of the coaching staff.
12-10-2017 09:00 AM
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MidnightBlueGold Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Coach K is garbage
(12-10-2017 12:12 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  
(12-09-2017 11:24 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  Years ago when K first got the job, I went over and perused the Wisconsin(Green Bay) board to get a feel on what their fan base thought of their departing coach. Most comments were fairly positive, but was surprised at some being less flattering. Something along the lines of K being self-serving, and going out of his way to pat himself on the back, and when things went south ultimately throwing players under the bus...
Interesting stuff for sure...

People keep talking about throwing players under the bus and never taking blame. I just posted Coach K's comment about poor preparation on his part and I've posted other examples in previous years. I find him very personable and his anti-Amstutz comments honest and thoughtful as opposed to the usual coach-speak. These men get over 20,000 a year in schollie money to play- they can take a little criticism. Missed tonight's game but did notice what Pomo said- more bench minutes, which is good and shows some adjustment- prior to tonight we had 3 of the MAC's top 4 in minutes per game. Still, I tire of poor defensive schemes and effort. I'll be at most games and hope he succeeds but will not be crushed if he leaves. BTW, my name is on the building, too. If you go to the north east men's room, in the second-to-last stall, scratched into the left side wall....

Agreed. TK takes blame when it's needed. He also isn't afraid to let his players know they if they screwed up. He doesn't coddle his players. I can't think of anytime he has patted himself on the back or has not been personable.

BTW, if he wasn't a good coach/person, I highly doubt an assistant at a top university would let his son play for TK.
12-10-2017 09:01 AM
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falconplucker Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Coach K is garbage
While I don't find "bravely" calling a person garbage on a message board all that credible, I do agree that the program is overdue for change. Coach K does deserve some credit for raising the program out of an abyss and getting it to a championship game. There aren't any shady characters on the team point shaving. However, you are either rising as a program, stagnant as a program, or falling as a program. This program is stagnant.
12-10-2017 10:02 AM
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Post: #40
RE: Coach K is garbage
When I lived in Toledo I loved going to basketball games. And I keep meaning to make the two hour drive over to see a game. But as I watched the game on my kindle with the sound off while my wife was watching something else I could see the "old bit" siren flashing in the background.

I love the kids that TK has brought in and the improved academics. But the product on the floor is hideous at times.

Its one thing to get beat. Its another to just hand over the game.
12-10-2017 10:05 AM
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