(12-07-2017 02:19 PM)JCGSU Wrote:  

(12-07-2017 01:27 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  To play devil's advocate, if C-USA is a failing model, is the Sun Belt successful? If so, how? If not, why not?

We did not use the look at our marketzzz model. We have never been dependent on TV contracts.

Oh boy, this is a loaded statement for someone who’s team just got to the sunbelt. A few years ago the talk of the Sunbelt was “we need better TV deals”. No disrespect but I think the entirety of that statement is false.

No matter who says what, the dynamics have changed. We can all agree on that.

The reality of the G5 is that that P5 found a way to stack the deck again and they did. I've seen this battle waged since the 1970's. I'm tired of it. I want something better for the real college athletics. For me the P5 has moved into minor league football farm teams for the NFL. It has turned into who has the most money to pay the players, their families and whomever they need to pay off at the NCAA to keep them out of trouble. Cheating is rampant at that level and they won't pay the players what they really deserve because so long as they hide behind the veil of "college athletics" they can keep the players in their place and not have the expense while keeping profits in the university's pocket.

Call me a bitter old man who's a cynic but I'd like to see the G5 embrace what college athletics used to be. Student athletes were fun to talk to and fun to watch.

OK, rant mode off.

(12-08-2017 09:37 PM)Seminowl Wrote:  

(12-07-2017 02:19 PM)JCGSU Wrote:  

(12-07-2017 01:27 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  To play devil's advocate, if C-USA is a failing model, is the Sun Belt successful? If so, how? If not, why not?

We did not use the look at our marketzzz model. We have never been dependent on TV contracts.

Oh boy, this is a loaded statement for someone who’s team just got to the sunbelt. A few years ago the talk of the Sunbelt was “we need better TV deals”. No disrespect but I think the entirety of that statement is false.

Actually you are correct that everyone would want a great TV deal with lots of money.

But, his point is that our budgets aren't dependent upon them, so the fact that the Belt has an equivalent TV deal (in many ways - ours is better than CUSA's - but we have to play weekday games) isn't a problem for us.

Many of your conference mates are feeling severe financial pain.

(12-07-2017 01:27 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  To play devil's advocate, if C-USA is a failing model, is the Sun Belt successful? If so, how? If not, why not?

CUSA is no more "failing" than is the SBC, MAC, or MWC. The AAC is fairing a little better so far, but that will even prove to be temporary. What is happening is that we're all transitioning into G5 conference status. I don't think people yet understand just how low the P5 conferences intend to drive the rest of us down.

Yes, the TV contract CUSA enjoyed is gone for good, but hey, it was nice while it lasted. The money that all G5 conferences get from TV contracts will now be dictated by whatever the P5 conferences will allow us to have, and that will be as little as they can get away with without going to prison.

What the P5 conferences truly want is three separate divisions. The only reason it hasn't happened yet is that they still have to hold their noses and fill their home game schedules with the likes of us.

Urinating matches between G5 conferences are as ridiculous as the proverbial "tallest midget" contest would be. There's a new club boys, and we ain't in it.

I still advocate we all (G5 fans) call the P5 conferences the Prig5. They are a bunch of prigs in my book. The G5 conferences can be called the Good5 or Great5. The G5 schools are pretty good (not perfect I know) about NCAA sanctions and following the rules compared to say, Oooo, I don't know, UNC-CHeat as a recent example close to home for me.

We all need to realize we are not "P5" and never will be. We will never be competitive at that level, at least not with any consistency. It's getting the MWC and AAC to realize that too is the hard part. There is no reason why we don't have a "G5" championship. As long as it's only a 4 team playoff, and knowing that at least one "P5" conference will be left out, or this year, 2 conferences left out, do you really think they will ever let one of us in, never gonna happen.

I think there will be another round of major realignment, and when that happens, maybe, just maybe a couple "G5" schools will get moved into that, or we could see some current "P5" schools dropped to our level.

Our peers are in the CUSA, MWC, AAC and MAC, that's who we should be playing for a national championship.

(12-10-2017 10:18 AM)Usajags Wrote:  We all need to realize we are not "P5" and never will be. We will never be competitive at that level, at least not with any consistency. It's getting the MWC and AAC to realize that too is the hard part. There is no reason why we don't have a "G5" championship. As long as it's only a 4 team playoff, and knowing that at least one "P5" conference will be left out, or this year, 2 conferences left out, do you really think they will ever let one of us in, never gonna happen.

I think there will be another round of major realignment, and when that happens, maybe, just maybe a couple "G5" schools will get moved into that, or we could see some current "P5" schools dropped to our level.

Our peers are in the CUSA, MWC, AAC and MAC, that's who we should be playing for a national championship.

The problem with a G5 playoff is that it will further the divide between G5 and P5. Essentially the G5 will become it's own separate league between the FCS and P5. The best thing we can hope for right now is for the CFP to expand to an 8 team playoff and hope they don't screw over G5 teams like they did UCF.

(12-10-2017 10:38 AM)NeptunianEmp Wrote:  

(12-10-2017 10:18 AM)Usajags Wrote:  We all need to realize we are not "P5" and never will be. We will never be competitive at that level, at least not with any consistency. It's getting the MWC and AAC to realize that too is the hard part. There is no reason why we don't have a "G5" championship. As long as it's only a 4 team playoff, and knowing that at least one "P5" conference will be left out, or this year, 2 conferences left out, do you really think they will ever let one of us in, never gonna happen.

I think there will be another round of major realignment, and when that happens, maybe, just maybe a couple "G5" schools will get moved into that, or we could see some current "P5" schools dropped to our level.

Our peers are in the CUSA, MWC, AAC and MAC, that's who we should be playing for a national championship.

The problem with a G5 playoff is that it will further the divide between G5 and P5. Essentially the G5 will become it's own separate league between the FCS and P5. The best thing we can hope for right now is for the CFP to expand to an 8 team playoff and hope they don't screw over G5 teams like they did UCF.

At 8 teams, UCF still would have been left out this year. That's the problem, we are already a separate league, with no recognition. The only hope for us would be if the FBS expanded the playoffs to match the FCS numbers. And guarantee that all conference champs get into the playoffs. But they'll use the, that makes the season to long excuse, even though they've been using that excuse for ever, even when teams played a max of 12 games, including bowl game. Now teams are at a possible 15 games. It's all about the money, and the "G5" isn't where the money is.

(12-10-2017 10:18 AM)Usajags Wrote:  We all need to realize we are not "P5" and never will be. We will never be competitive at that level, at least not with any consistency. It's getting the MWC and AAC to realize that too is the hard part. There is no reason why we don't have a "G5" championship. As long as it's only a 4 team playoff, and knowing that at least one "P5" conference will be left out, or this year, 2 conferences left out, do you really think they will ever let one of us in, never gonna happen.

I think there will be another round of major realignment, and when that happens, maybe, just maybe a couple "G5" schools will get moved into that, or we could see some current "P5" schools dropped to our level.

Our peers are in the CUSA, MWC, AAC and MAC, that's who we should be playing for a national championship.

I don't agree. Its like saying that we have to go ahead, surrender, and accept "separate but equal".

You shouldn't accept it.

Does that mean you will be discriminated against and that it will suck? Yes it does.

But when UCF happens it highlights the ridiculousness of the system. People write stories about it. People contemplate how UCF would do and what could change.

Meanwhile we take what CFP money we can and improve our facilities, our coaching, our marketing, etc. to get better and make it even more ridiculous.

(12-10-2017 11:27 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(12-10-2017 10:18 AM)Usajags Wrote:  We all need to realize we are not "P5" and never will be. We will never be competitive at that level, at least not with any consistency. It's getting the MWC and AAC to realize that too is the hard part. There is no reason why we don't have a "G5" championship. As long as it's only a 4 team playoff, and knowing that at least one "P5" conference will be left out, or this year, 2 conferences left out, do you really think they will ever let one of us in, never gonna happen.

I think there will be another round of major realignment, and when that happens, maybe, just maybe a couple "G5" schools will get moved into that, or we could see some current "P5" schools dropped to our level.

Our peers are in the CUSA, MWC, AAC and MAC, that's who we should be playing for a national championship.

I don't agree. Its like saying that we have to go ahead, surrender, and accept "separate but equal".

You shouldn't accept it.

Does that mean you will be discriminated against and that it will suck? Yes it does.

But when UCF happens it highlights the ridiculousness of the system. People write stories about it. People contemplate how UCF would do and what could change.

Meanwhile we take what CFP money we can and improve our facilities, our coaching, our marketing, etc. to get better and make it even more ridiculous.

So we take a million dollars each to upgrade and hire, while they get $30 million each, how we supposed to catch up like that??? That's some of that new math they keep talking about.

(12-10-2017 11:42 AM)Usajags Wrote:  

(12-10-2017 11:27 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(12-10-2017 10:18 AM)Usajags Wrote:  We all need to realize we are not "P5" and never will be. We will never be competitive at that level, at least not with any consistency. It's getting the MWC and AAC to realize that too is the hard part. There is no reason why we don't have a "G5" championship. As long as it's only a 4 team playoff, and knowing that at least one "P5" conference will be left out, or this year, 2 conferences left out, do you really think they will ever let one of us in, never gonna happen.

I think there will be another round of major realignment, and when that happens, maybe, just maybe a couple "G5" schools will get moved into that, or we could see some current "P5" schools dropped to our level.

Our peers are in the CUSA, MWC, AAC and MAC, that's who we should be playing for a national championship.

I don't agree. Its like saying that we have to go ahead, surrender, and accept "separate but equal".

You shouldn't accept it.

Does that mean you will be discriminated against and that it will suck? Yes it does.

But when UCF happens it highlights the ridiculousness of the system. People write stories about it. People contemplate how UCF would do and what could change.

Meanwhile we take what CFP money we can and improve our facilities, our coaching, our marketing, etc. to get better and make it even more ridiculous.

So we take a million dollars each to upgrade and hire, while they get $30 million each, how we supposed to catch up like that??? That's some of that new math they keep talking about.

Why do I care whether they get $30 million or not? What are they going to do, build another basketball practice facility? Build a $50 million "Lacrosse Operations Center"? Gold-plate some more toilets? Have diamond encrusted jock straps? Expand the stadium to 300,000 capacity?

I am interested in Arkansas State. I want to see us have nice facilities that serve us well. Maybe even splurge on our own waterfall here and there.

I am not that concerned whether our budget equals Wake Forest or Indiana or Illinois or Colorado. Because I don't want to be them.

I want the opportunity for Arkansas State to improve. And in the last 7 years, we have improved.

People get wrapped up in keeping up with the Jones's budget-wise.

Now what those dollars do give them that actually affects us is the ability to pay coaches and assistant coaches outrageous salaries with outrageous buyouts. And honestly, I'm not sure we want to be in an all-fired hurry to try to follow them over that cliff.

What really holds us back right now is our champion's access to the playoffs. We have no ability to win a National Championship no matter what we do. We could make $300 million and it still wouldn't help if we were not allowed access because it is rigged like Olympic Ice Dancing is rigged.

I'm not totally convinced that their huge tv money bonanza is going to last forever anyway.

So are we competing with them or not competing with them???

If we are competing with them, we are behind and in the current model will always be behind. If you think it's golden toilets, you're wrong. Today it's indoor practice facilities, who knows what the future will hold in training and recruiting tools.

If we are not competing with them, why pretend we are??? Why not have a championship of schools with closer budgets???

I agree the money bubble will burst, and we are probably only a tv contract away from it.

I like the idea of the model, smaller stadiums, easier to accommodate fancy new things, and do it at a more affordable rate. But that smaller affordable means less money, less people watching and less people caring. Which means we will never get to the level of the big boys.

The one thing that will determine how much parity there is more than anything is the scholarship ceiling.

At the end of the day, most athletes aren't going to choose walking on at LSU over a scholarship and FCOA at Arkansas State. That's not a smart idea regardless of whether the player has a shot at the NFL.

When there is talk of raising the scholarship ceiling is arguably more what should concern us than whether or not Clemson has a giant shark aquarium in their IPF.

(12-10-2017 02:32 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  The one thing that will determine how much parity there is more than anything is the scholarship ceiling.

At the end of the day, most athletes aren't going to choose walking on at LSU over a scholarship and FCOA at Arkansas State. That's not a smart idea regardless of whether the player has a shot at the NFL.

When there is talk of raising the scholarship ceiling is arguably more what should concern us than whether or not Clemson has a giant shark aquarium in their IPF.

Since so many schools have started football over the last 10 years, I'd actually like to see scholarships be limited down to 80 per FBS school. If there was an increase, that just means less FBS caliber athelets the G5 schools would get.

(12-10-2017 02:19 PM)Usajags Wrote:  So are we competing with them or not competing with them???

If we are competing with them, we are behind and in the current model will always be behind. If you think it's golden toilets, you're wrong. Today it's indoor practice facilities, who knows what the future will hold in training and recruiting tools.

If we are not competing with them, why pretend we are??? Why not have a championship of schools with closer budgets???

I agree the money bubble will burst, and we are probably only a tv contract away from it.

I like the idea of the model, smaller stadiums, easier to accommodate fancy new things, and do it at a more affordable rate. But that smaller affordable means less money, less people watching and less people caring. Which means we will never get to the level of the big boys.

So the choice is what? Demand and get as much cash as the big boys OR drop back and accept second class status?

Might as well drop back then because that demand for cash will not be met.

Arkansas State is not going to make the same money as the University of Arkansas does. So it is absolutely pointless to fret over it. Accepting that is entirely different than accepting a rigged system that prohibits access to playoffs if you aren't part of the favored cartel. You can accept that you won't make $42 million a year off of television rights without accepting an arbitrary barrier to equal access to playoff spots.

Just because you don't accept it doesn't make it reality. We are second class citizens in the FBS.

Why not have P5 and a G5 champion. I'm not saying change anything else, just let the top 2 G5 teams play in a bowl, per BCS era, or a 4 team playoff per the current CFP set up.

Would anyone but G5 fans care, nope, but no one cares about any of our bowls, or 75% of all the other bowls being played. They are just program fillers for ESPN.

Don't underestimate the ability of time to change things.

Back in the 1980s and 1990s, we beat UCF like a drum. We have a 10-1 record against them in football since we restarted football in 1982. Now they're going to their second major bowl game in four years, and their recruiting classes more resemble those of NC State or Georgia Tech than ours. Meanwhile, little old Troy (then) State was a DII team with an envy of Georgia Southern's 4 I-AA national championships. The idea we're all stuck in a static hierarchy that will never change just isn't true.

Anyone who thought just slapping a CUSA or Sun Belt patch on their uniforms automatically makes us peers with the big boys was kidding themselves. We didn't move up with that delusion in mind. We moved up knowing it wasn't a one-year goal or a five-year goal to get to be among college football's best. It's something that will probably last beyond the lifetime of anyone who is alive today.

Eagle22 used the analogy of planting fruit trees on your property that will take many years to mature and bear fruit. It may not give you a single fruit in your lifetime but down the road what you did will pay off for future generations.

(12-10-2017 03:12 PM)Usajags Wrote:  Just because you don't accept it doesn't make it reality. We are second class citizens in the FBS.

Why not have P5 and a G5 champion. I'm not saying change anything else, just let the top 2 G5 teams play in a bowl, per BCS era, or a 4 team playoff per the current CFP set up.

Would anyone but G5 fans care, nope, but no one cares about any of our bowls, or 75% of all the other bowls being played. They are just program fillers for ESPN.

Because I don't feel like institutionalizing or normalizing the G5 playoff access discrimination....which creating a lower-level playoff does.

I would prefer to be unfairly excluded from my own subdivision's playoff like UCF rather than win some fake sub-sub-division title. I would rather be screwed over...than accept a participation ribbon.

I'm not asking for a level playing field. Because there will never be a level playing field in college football. There will be no luxury taxes, or first round draft picks, or general revenue sharing. All I am asking for is equal access to the un-level playing field. Not too much for any member to ask of its sports league.

(12-10-2017 03:36 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  Don't underestimate the ability of time to change things.

Back in the 1980s and 1990s, we beat UCF like a drum. We have a 10-1 record against them in football since we restarted football in 1982. Now they're going to their second major bowl game in four years, and their recruiting classes more resemble those of NC State or Georgia Tech than ours. Meanwhile, little old Troy (then) State was a DII team with an envy of Georgia Southern's 4 I-AA national championships. The idea we're all stuck in a static hierarchy that will never change just isn't true.

Anyone who thought just slapping a CUSA or Sun Belt patch on their uniforms automatically makes us peers with the big boys was kidding themselves. We didn't move up with that delusion in mind. We moved up knowing it wasn't a one-year goal or a five-year goal to get to be among college football's best. It's something that will probably last beyond the lifetime of anyone who is alive today.

Eagle22 used the analogy of planting fruit trees on your property that will take many years to mature and bear fruit. It may not give you a single fruit in your lifetime but down the road what you did will pay off for future generations.

This is true. But the overall goal of the G5 should not be for their individual schools to be "promoted" into the weird cartel. It should be for all conferences in the same subdivision be treated equally in terms of playoff access. Not money...but access.

Its not money that is killing us. It is lack of access.

Every single player in FBS football should have a defined path to a National Championship. Win your conference championship....win the playoffs....you are National Champs.

Now that might be unlikely...almost impossible...for a ULM or Charlotte. But the opportunity would exist and it would all depend on what they did on the field.

And that is a real sport.

(12-10-2017 03:48 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  This is true. But the overall goal of the G5 should not be for their individual schools to be "promoted" into the weird cartel. It should be for all conferences in the same subdivision be treated equally in terms of playoff access. Not money...but access.

Its not money that is killing us. It is lack of access.

Every single player in FBS football should have a defined path to a National Championship. Win your conference championship....win the playoffs....you are National Champs.

Now that might be unlikely...almost impossible...for a ULM or Charlotte. But the opportunity would exist and it would all depend on what they did on the field.

And that is a real sport.

I'm not convinced there's a lack of access to the CFP yet.

Can you really say with confidence UCF is one of the 4 best teams in the country? I can't. Not at all. Their defense is not in the same galaxy as those of Clemson, UGA, and Alabama.

I'm not worried at all that my team or any Sun Belt team will have a legit top 4 team and get left out. The CFP will expand well before that, I am sure.