(11-14-2017 09:48 AM)Banter Wrote:  

(11-14-2017 09:46 AM)ucbrownsfan Wrote:  

(11-14-2017 09:19 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Agree all this talk of greatness is premature. For example, last year's squad had early season wins over Fairleigh Dickinson 119-68, Texas Southern 96-58, BGSU 85-56, Brown 84-55, etc.

CBB is a very long season. Its not like CFB where every game matters. November games really only serve as a building blocks for your program for later in the season. Even if you get a big win over ranked opponents, all that matters is what you do in March/April. I've been around long enough to see some really good UC teams roll through the competition early in the season only to peak before the tournament.

If we are still doing this come March I'll be ready to call the team very good to special.

Don't want to disagree with your main point.... but when's the last time a Cronin team scored over 100 twice in a season in regulation? Big wins with your starters playing so little is also nice.

I believe we had a back to back 100 point games in 2011-2012.

So we have to go back 6 years, to Mick's best tournament team, to sort of equal their accomplishments from the first 2 games of the season.

Then you see that the bench combined for 62 points those 2 games... this year it combined for 79 (counting Broome+Washington as starters). Better bench, and starters getting their points and rest.

(11-14-2017 07:57 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Cumberland is going to have a huge year and can take over games. Evans can got hot and do so as well. Not worried about that.

I think we have guys that can take over games...but what about against elite teams? IE the kind we have to beat to make a legit run at the title?

(11-14-2017 11:49 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  

(11-14-2017 07:57 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Cumberland is going to have a huge year and can take over games. Evans can got hot and do so as well. Not worried about that.

I think we have guys that can take over games...but what about against elite teams? IE the kind we have to beat to make a legit run at the title?

We'll know that by mid-December w/Florida, UCLA, and Xavier coming up quickly. I think Cumberland can shoulder the load...the kid has clearly put in work in the off-season and is more than ready to do it on a nightly basis. He, Evans, and Broome are going to be around 15/game every time they come on the court IMO.

I don't know that you actually need a guy to take over.
Take for example Evans, if I had told you going into last night we'd hit 102 points and Jacob Evans would only score 9 of them, you probably wouldn't believe me. But the reality is, beside those 9 points are 6 assists. The offense as a whole is fluid and everybody from 1-5 is a threat to score. With the starters, they can score inside and out. You add to that our rebounding, our defensive press and ability to get out in transition... I'm not sure having a go-to guy is essential in these situations.

Another aspect to consider is that if that go-to guy is having a bad shooting night, we could be screwed against any good team. That's not the case with this team. If we add a go-to guy on top of what we already have, that would be GREAT though.

Only thing that has me worried is that we don't play anyone good until the 4 game stretch with x, ucla, Florida and miss st. Those 4 teams are all loaded with pretty high d1 talent. These blow outs are fun to watch but we are playing teams that their starting lineups might not compete against the power conference walk ons.

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(11-14-2017 12:17 PM)Spinal070508 Wrote:  Only thing that has me worried is that we don't play anyone good until the 4 game stretch with x, ucla, Florida and miss st. Those 4 teams are all loaded with pretty high d1 talent. These blow outs are fun to watch but we are playing teams that their starting lineups might not compete against the power conference walk ons.

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UC has a stretch of solid teams coming up in the Caymans. Buffalo and UAB could be top 100 RPI teams this year. Iowa is very likely to be a top 50 RPI team. Those should be solid games to get ready for that stretch.

You need at least 2 NBA lottery picks to run that deep. Do we have 2 NBA lottery picks?

(11-14-2017 01:04 PM)Not Duane Wrote:  You need at least 2 NBA lottery picks to run that deep. Do we have 2 NBA lottery picks?

2016 National Champion Villanova say hi.

Hell last year's national champion North Carolina's highest pick was the 15th

(11-14-2017 01:04 PM)Not Duane Wrote:  You need at least 2 NBA lottery picks to run that deep. Do we have 2 NBA lottery picks?

I just don't think this is the case now. The lottery is pretty much all freshmen now, 2nd round NBA Sr will often be just as good in college as a freshman lotto pick. Frank Mason was just as good of a college player as Tatum or Ball, but it's obvious who should have been drafted higher.

As I've said earlier, every single guy on the starting 5,has had a thread with someone asking the question if they would leave early for the NBA. I could very well see 4 of our 5 someday being 2nd round picks. Especially if Cane Broome can have a Russ Smith like trajectory. Remember SK wasn't even drafted.

(11-14-2017 12:51 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(11-14-2017 12:17 PM)Spinal070508 Wrote:  Only thing that has me worried is that we don't play anyone good until the 4 game stretch with x, ucla, Florida and miss st. Those 4 teams are all loaded with pretty high d1 talent. These blow outs are fun to watch but we are playing teams that their starting lineups might not compete against the power conference walk ons.

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UC has a stretch of solid teams coming up in the Caymans. Buffalo and UAB could be top 100 RPI teams this year. Iowa is very likely to be a top 50 RPI team. Those should be solid games to get ready for that stretch.

Absolutely. These are the games that have largely been missing on our schedule the past few seasons. They serve as perfect preparation for the elites and conference play.

(11-14-2017 12:17 PM)Spinal070508 Wrote:  Only thing that has me worried is that we don't play anyone good until the 4 game stretch with x, ucla, Florida and miss st. Those 4 teams are all loaded with pretty high d1 talent. These blow outs are fun to watch but we are playing teams that their starting lineups might not compete against the power conference walk ons.

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The great thing about this team is our starting 5 practice against:
J Jenifer, Keith Williams, Trevor Moore, Tre Scott, Nysier Brooks. I think our 2nd 5 would have a winning record in the American this year as the starting 5.

I mean that's a better 5 at each position than half of the teams Cronin has coached here. TBH I can't remember a year here where Hugg's had as good of a 2nd 5 as this. 99-00 was his best.

(11-14-2017 01:25 PM)ucbrownsfan Wrote:  

(11-14-2017 12:17 PM)Spinal070508 Wrote:  Only thing that has me worried is that we don't play anyone good until the 4 game stretch with x, ucla, Florida and miss st. Those 4 teams are all loaded with pretty high d1 talent. These blow outs are fun to watch but we are playing teams that their starting lineups might not compete against the power conference walk ons.

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The great thing about this team is our starting 5 practice against:
J Jenifer, Keith Williams, Trevor Moore, Tre Scott, Nysier Brooks. I think our 2nd 5 would have a winning record in the American this year as the starting 5.

I mean that's a better 5 at each position than half of the teams Cronin has coached here. TBH I can't remember a year here where Hugg's had as good of a 2nd 5 as this. 99-00 was his best.

I bet our bench could easily go 13 - 5 or better in conference this year. UConn and Memphis are still not good. I could see us losing 2 against WSU, losing 1 against UCF, and losing 2 more against between Temple and SMU. I could even see us going 15 - 3.

One scary bench:
Jennifer (or Broome)
Williams
Moore
Diarra
Nsoseme/Brooks

There is a ton of talent on the bench... but I think they'll be more limited against the better competition on our schedule. The first two games were against bottom quarter of college basketball teams. I like what the bench will be able to do in limited roles, but all playing together against much of our schedule I don't think would be as good as some seem to think based on these two games.

(11-14-2017 07:41 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  Granted we've only played two games vs most likely RPI 250+ teams but it looks like we are going to be very good this year.


My question is, can we be special?

Consider:
We can score from every position
We are deep, long, and athletic
We can play defense (like usual)
There really isn't a weak link on the team position wise
They look bought in
Mick and staff are firmly entrenched
We have a nice mix vets and youngins

My all accounts, we are very good

Two things come to mind when I think of being special and what may keep us from that:

1. Consistent free throw shooting, (will kill you in the ncaa tourney)

2. As of right now, I'm not sure we have that one player that can take over a game vs elite teams. This team is loaded with very good players but there is no Kenyon Martin, or Danny Fortson or Nick Van Exel. When you look at a lot of final four teams, and especially national title contenders its sees like they all have that one guy that when the going gets rough (and it will in the ncaa tourney at some point) they have the one guy that can carry them and I mean vs elite opponents.


Do we have 'that guy' that can emerge?
If not, do we need that guy or is a team of very good players enough?


Thoughts?

Oscar Robertson was that extremely special guy, and an unselfish talent as well, but we didn't win our first national championship until after he graduated. It would be hard to single out any single player on those championship teams in the early 1960s and label him as "that guy." Hogue? Yates? Thacker? Bouldin? Wiesenhahn? Wilson? Bonham? The others? They were all special, and each contributed in his own way, but those championships were balanced team efforts.

I can recall other teams stopping their pre-game warmups to watch ours in those days. It was magic.

(11-14-2017 07:41 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  Granted we've only played two games vs most likely RPI 250+ teams but it looks like we are going to be very good this year.


My question is, can we be special?

Consider:
We can score from every position
We are deep, long, and athletic
We can play defense (like usual)
There really isn't a weak link on the team position wise
They look bought in
Mick and staff are firmly entrenched
We have a nice mix vets and youngins

My all accounts, we are very good

Two things come to mind when I think of being special and what may keep us from that:

1. Consistent free throw shooting, (will kill you in the ncaa tourney)

2. As of right now, I'm not sure we have that one player that can take over a game vs elite teams. This team is loaded with very good players but there is no Kenyon Martin, or Danny Fortson or Nick Van Exel. When you look at a lot of final four teams, and especially national title contenders its sees like they all have that one guy that when the going gets rough (and it will in the ncaa tourney at some point) they have the one guy that can carry them and I mean vs elite opponents.


Do we have 'that guy' that can emerge?
If not, do we need that guy or is a team of very good players enough?


Thoughts?

And Kenyon wasn't really Kenyon at the beginning of the year. We all new he was good, he was a fun player to watch, but after averaging 10/7 his jr year, I don't think anyone would have guessed he'd be AP POY. Quite frankly there isn't much that seperates Gary Clark as a Jr from Kenyon as a Jr (wish we could say the same thing about as a senior)

Also... noone knew Nick Van Exel until well into the season. Maybe Cane Broome is the same thing. You never know who steps into that role, until it's over.

The thing is if we reach a FF... we'll be saying that a few of these guys reached that level... and if we don't, we won't.

Cumberland has the look of a guy who is just about to explode. I mean he really doesnt need to on this team, but I think he could average 20. He flat out knows how to score the ball.

Jacob Evans is a better physical talent but he just doesn’t seem to have that cutthroat ice cold instinct like Cumberland.

Low post scorers? I don’t remember a front court at UC with this much pop at both positions. Maybe Maxiell and Hicks, but I think Kwash and Clark are better offensively. And yes they are both very comfortable in the low post, someone called them out as face up players. Washington has that nearly unstoppable left handed jump hook, and Gary is very smooth around the rim.

I think you can give it to any of those 4 guys late in the game and expect good things to happen.

(11-14-2017 03:31 PM)colohank Wrote:  

(11-14-2017 07:41 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  Granted we've only played two games vs most likely RPI 250+ teams but it looks like we are going to be very good this year.


My question is, can we be special?

Consider:
We can score from every position
We are deep, long, and athletic
We can play defense (like usual)
There really isn't a weak link on the team position wise
They look bought in
Mick and staff are firmly entrenched
We have a nice mix vets and youngins

My all accounts, we are very good

Two things come to mind when I think of being special and what may keep us from that:

1. Consistent free throw shooting, (will kill you in the ncaa tourney)

2. As of right now, I'm not sure we have that one player that can take over a game vs elite teams. This team is loaded with very good players but there is no Kenyon Martin, or Danny Fortson or Nick Van Exel. When you look at a lot of final four teams, and especially national title contenders its sees like they all have that one guy that when the going gets rough (and it will in the ncaa tourney at some point) they have the one guy that can carry them and I mean vs elite opponents.


Do we have 'that guy' that can emerge?
If not, do we need that guy or is a team of very good players enough?


Thoughts?

Oscar Robertson was that extremely special guy, and an unselfish talent as well, but we didn't win our first national championship until after he graduated. It would be hard to single out any single player on those championship teams in the early 1960s and label him as "that guy." Hogue? Yates? Thacker? Bouldin? Wiesenhahn? Wilson? Bonham? The others? They were all special, and each contributed in his own way, but those championships were balanced team efforts.

I can recall other teams stopping their pre-game warmups to watch ours in those days. It was magic.

That's a great post, ---and spot on.

I would never say that any team is an elite 8 lock or better just because if how difficult it is to win in March and how often better teams fall. But this is probably the first time that I have ever felt that UC could matchup with the blue bloods without much issue.

My biggest worry is still PG play. I haven't seen enough from Broome to feel great about him and JJ has always played well against lower tier competition and struggled against the better competition. Hopefully that is not the case this year and we have a ton of good depth at PG to go with all of the depth at the other positions.

Luckily we have a couple games left for the team to really gel. After that, I imagine lineups will be solidified and we'll be battling for survival. for as bad as the conference is, our non-conference will be pretty damn good. UAB looks like a tournament team, I expect to face them and Iowa in the Cayman Island tournament. You add to that: Florida, Mississippi State, Xavier and UCLA.