Quote:The universities are not putting these people on trial. They are simply kicking them out of school.

They are free to go somewhere else.

Just curious, do they get the money they put in to the schooling back for the remainder of the year, pro-rated if they're kicked out?

My guess (I don't know) would be no.. so they get to put a "black mark" next to your name, keep your money, and you're screwed whenever you go to the next university and they ask why you want to come here?

Oh, I got kicked out of .. for rape charges..

Next University: Uhm... okay, thanks, but no thanks.

"Going somewhere else" is a lot easier said than done.

(09-22-2017 02:48 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  They don't have to. Universities have a Code of Conduct. If the university has a reason to believe that it was violated, they can kick people out.

And if it's proven that the reason was wrong/incorrect?

Under the BO orders, the schools don't have to man up, apologize or even let the students back in.

(09-22-2017 02:27 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 01:43 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 10:52 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  These guys have zero due process rights under title 9. Universities have no business nor the expertise to investigate possible sex crimes. That is for the police and county prosecutors. A ton of schools are quietly settling law suits brought by these guys. DeVos is 100% doing the right thing.

This

The universities are not putting these people on trial. They are simply kicking them out of school.

They are free to go somewhere else in Mexico

Hey maybe they can do that with illegal aliens.

(09-22-2017 03:05 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

Quote:The universities are not putting these people on trial. They are simply kicking them out of school.

They are free to go somewhere else.

Just curious, do they get the money they put in to the schooling back for the remainder of the year, pro-rated if they're kicked out?

My guess (I don't know) would be no.. so they get to put a "black mark" next to your name, keep your money, and you're screwed whenever you go to the next university and they ask why you want to come here?

Oh, I got kicked out of .. for rape charges..

Next University: Uhm... okay, thanks, but no thanks.

"Going somewhere else" is a lot easier said than done.

(09-22-2017 02:48 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  They don't have to. Universities have a Code of Conduct. If the university has a reason to believe that it was violated, they can kick people out.

And if it's proven that the reason was wrong/incorrect?

Under the BO orders, the schools don't have to man up, apologize or even let the students back in.

I"m sure they get to keep the credits they earned. Also, in many cases, why you were kicked out does not have to be disclosed.

A couple of years ago, a New York City liberal feminist, who supported the Title IX "Dear Colleague" letter, suddenly rescinded her support, and wrote an Op Ed in the Wall Street Journal expressing why she changed her view. The reason? Her son had been accused of sexual assault and now was facing expulsion.

As she wrote:

"...Until a month ago, I would have expressed unqualified support for Title IX and for the Violence Against Women Act.

But that was before my son, a senior at a small liberal-arts college in New England, was charged—by an ex-girlfriend—with alleged acts of "nonconsensual sex" that supposedly occurred during the course of their relationship a few years earlier...."

Funny how broad policies can look different when they strike close to home.

WSJ Link

(09-22-2017 02:19 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 12:22 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Due process and proper justice in legitimate sexual assault cases are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately stuff like the Stanford swimmer thing fuels the fire since these really should be handled by the proper law enforcement authoritiea.

Eyewitness accounts, 2 grad students stopped the assault, and the Swimmer withdrew from Stanford. It is a lot different than she said he said, with no other eye witness or any kind of evidence.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/...e347841929
The Obama administration’s disdain for the rule of law continues to reverberate. One way is its Title IX madness, which has caught numerous colleges and universities in its web. Among them is Amherst College, which now faces a lawsuit brought by a student who makes a compelling case that he was wrongfully expelled.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/...270e5e1929

Oh I agree, I'm just talking about the perception of it all among the SJW crowd. A white dude getting 6 months makes the conventional legal system look pretty bad when looking at that compared to the time that legitimate rapists should get. That, plus high-profile athletes going through a legal process that's sketchy at best, taints any attempt to legitimize the process.

I'm hoping we'll see a decent middle ground from the craziness of the past few years versus the pre-Obama framework. Prior to the Obama regulations, colleges were required to report sexual assaults on campus to the government and these stats ended up online. Administrators did not want their school to be seen as a "rape factory," so they downplayed the amount of sexual assault that happened on their campus through various means - this resulted in a backwards set of incentives where colleges benefited from not taking these investigations seriously. Of course, the "Dear Colleague" letter took the 180 approach that swung the pendulum too far the other way, but the idea that universities shouldn't try and close their eyes to legitimate sexual assault was correct in intent (if not misguided in execution).

(09-22-2017 02:27 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 01:43 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 10:52 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  These guys have zero due process rights under title 9. Universities have no business nor the expertise to investigate possible sex crimes. That is for the police and county prosecutors. A ton of schools are quietly settling law suits brought by these guys. DeVos is 100% doing the right thing.

This

The universities are not putting these people on trial. They are simply kicking them out of school.

They are free to go somewhere else.

Are they giving them back their tuition?

If someone's guilty, send them to jail, make them register as a sex offender, where a scarlet A on their chest, etc., etc.

If not, let's not ruin their lives. I kind of wish it was against the law to publish the name of a suspect prior to their conviction (for all crimes, not just sexual assault).

(09-22-2017 04:51 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 02:19 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 12:22 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Due process and proper justice in legitimate sexual assault cases are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately stuff like the Stanford swimmer thing fuels the fire since these really should be handled by the proper law enforcement authoritiea.

Eyewitness accounts, 2 grad students stopped the assault, and the Swimmer withdrew from Stanford. It is a lot different than she said he said, with no other eye witness or any kind of evidence.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/...e347841929
The Obama administration’s disdain for the rule of law continues to reverberate. One way is its Title IX madness, which has caught numerous colleges and universities in its web. Among them is Amherst College, which now faces a lawsuit brought by a student who makes a compelling case that he was wrongfully expelled.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/...270e5e1929

Oh I agree, I'm just talking about the perception of it all among the SJW crowd. A white dude getting 6 months makes the conventional legal system look pretty bad when looking at that compared to the time that legitimate rapists should get. That, plus high-profile athletes going through a legal process that's sketchy at best, taints any attempt to legitimize the process.

I'm hoping we'll see a decent middle ground from the craziness of the past few years versus the pre-Obama framework. Prior to the Obama regulations, colleges were required to report sexual assaults on campus to the government and these stats ended up online. Administrators did not want their school to be seen as a "rape factory," so they downplayed the amount of sexual assault that happened on their campus through various means - this resulted in a backwards set of incentives where colleges benefited from not taking these investigations seriously. Of course, the "Dear Colleague" letter took the 180 approach that swung the pendulum too far the other way, but the idea that universities shouldn't try and close their eyes to legitimate sexual assault was correct in intent (if not misguided in execution).

The police have long not taken these things seriously. Its a "he said, she said" type deal usually and hard to get a conviction. Instead of skipping the police and denying those accused of their rights, they need to work on getting the police to do their jobs in these cases.

I was on a jury where a 6 year old accused her Father of sexually abusing her. There was no physical evidence. We were all sick about being on that jury-the nature of the crime, the possibility of falsely convicting an innocent man while sending his kids to foster care and the possibility of subjecting the young girl to more attacks. We did, eventually, find him guilty. That was about as slim a set of evidence as you would have, but there was a conviction. The young girl was convincing, her teachers and counselors who she had reported it to were convincing and ultimately, no other explanation made sense. The man was, otherwise, a pretty good father, so we really had to get past reasonable doubt to convict him. It was a sad case all around.

I know a number of women who have been victims of rape or attempted rape. Only one of those committing the crime ever got caught. He was a serial rapist and just did it enough times that he got caught. Mostly the police blew the women off. In one case a daughter of a friend of mine was walking with a friend when 2 men came up to them with guns. They pulled them into a field, raped them, shot them and left them for dead. Her friend moaned after being shot so they put another bullet in her. Both managed to survive. Her dad said the police just told him, "Well they've probably already blown town."

(09-22-2017 02:27 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  The universities are not putting these people on trial. They are simply kicking them out of school.

When often they did nothing wrong, and I'll remind you that many of these are *state* schools.

(09-22-2017 02:31 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  If Kapernick can be denied entry into the NFL because he takes a knee then why can't a university kick out who they think is guilty of sexual assualt.

Firstly, Kapernick is not being denied entry because he is taking a knee (1) he was already on his way out when the knee things started, (2) There are active players who take knees.

Secondly the NFL is a private company, many of these schools are *state* institutions.

Lastly the NFL was not bullied into any action by the federal government, the schools were.

(09-22-2017 02:48 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  They don't have to. Universities have a Code of Conduct. If the university has a reason to believe that it was violated, they can kick people out.

Then why are they losing law suits fit?

(09-22-2017 02:31 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 02:29 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 02:27 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 01:43 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 10:52 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  These guys have zero due process rights under title 9. Universities have no business nor the expertise to investigate possible sex crimes. That is for the police and county prosecutors. A ton of schools are quietly settling law suits brought by these guys. DeVos is 100% doing the right thing.

This

The universities are not putting these people on trial. They are simply kicking them out of school.

They are free to go somewhere else.

That's unacceptable as well, especially if it's only based on one person's word.

If Kapernick can be denied entry into the NFL because he takes a knee then why can't a university kick out who they think is guilty of sexual assualt.

Because then they can kick out anyone for anything they think is wrong? This is one of your more inane questions in a growing list of them. Why must you always respond with a question anyway? Do you not know your own mind enough to make a positive assertion without feeling the need for others to validate it?

(09-22-2017 03:57 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 03:05 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

Quote:The universities are not putting these people on trial. They are simply kicking them out of school.

They are free to go somewhere else.

Just curious, do they get the money they put in to the schooling back for the remainder of the year, pro-rated if they're kicked out?

My guess (I don't know) would be no.. so they get to put a "black mark" next to your name, keep your money, and you're screwed whenever you go to the next university and they ask why you want to come here?

Oh, I got kicked out of .. for rape charges..

Next University: Uhm... okay, thanks, but no thanks.

"Going somewhere else" is a lot easier said than done.

(09-22-2017 02:48 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  They don't have to. Universities have a Code of Conduct. If the university has a reason to believe that it was violated, they can kick people out.

And if it's proven that the reason was wrong/incorrect?

Under the BO orders, the schools don't have to man up, apologize or even let the students back in.

I"m sure they get to keep the credits they earned. Also, in many cases, why you were kicked out does not have to be disclosed.

As someone who has gone through getting both a security clearance and a professional license, I can tell you that the reason a person was kicked out of school will most likely have to be disclosed. This kind of thing absolutely follows people.

(09-22-2017 10:52 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  These guys have zero due process rights under title 9. Universities have no business nor the expertise to investigate possible sex crimes. That is for the police and county prosecutors. A ton of schools are quietly settling law suits brought by these guys. DeVos is 100% doing the right thing.

Tell that to Baylor who tried to hide all those rapes that their football players have done.

(09-24-2017 05:06 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 10:52 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  These guys have zero due process rights under title 9. Universities have no business nor the expertise to investigate possible sex crimes. That is for the police and county prosecutors. A ton of schools are quietly settling law suits brought by these guys. DeVos is 100% doing the right thing.

Tell that to Baylor who tried to hide all those rapes that their football players have done.

Tell what to Baylor? WTF does that have to do with the topic at hand?

(09-24-2017 07:02 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 05:06 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 10:52 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  These guys have zero due process rights under title 9. Universities have no business nor the expertise to investigate possible sex crimes. That is for the police and county prosecutors. A ton of schools are quietly settling law suits brought by these guys. DeVos is 100% doing the right thing.

Tell that to Baylor who tried to hide all those rapes that their football players have done.

Tell what to Baylor? WTF does that have to do with the topic at hand?

...and some wonder why the msm preys upon 'dem'.....

#chowlinefodder

(09-22-2017 02:48 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 02:40 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 02:33 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 02:32 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(09-22-2017 02:31 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  If Kapernick can be denied entry into the NFL because he takes a knee then why can't a university kick out who they think is guilty of sexual assualt.

FFS, come on Fit.

It's a university. They are under no obligation to take anyone. Last time I checked, you have to be accepted into a University.

Well, for starters the two are in no way related so not sure where you pulled that from. Second, in no way is it right to expel an innocent student. THAT is why there are now lawsuits for doing exactly that. Also, you are forgetting these students have already been accepted, so no idea what you are talking about regarding "you have to be accepted". Devos is right with this one, as it prevents the falsely accused from having their lives ruined.

They aren't guilty according to the law. The school isn't trying to prove under a court of law whether or not they are guilty.

They don't have to. Universities have a Code of Conduct. If the university has a reason to believe that it was violated, they can kick people out.

And then, as we are now seeing, they can be sued. If the students have committed no crime, I see many students winning said lawsuits.