(09-01-2017 09:22 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  My father-in-law dropped out of High School in the 11th grade. He makes $40/hour as a contractor and works 60+ hours a week. Most of it goes unreported so it's cash in his pocket. He is one of those guys who can tell you what's wrong with your car by listening to it over the phone.. can build computers from the ground up, and has built a house from start to finish.

That is a rare, dying breed.

Sounds a lot like my father, although he did graduate high school (spent last two years at a Joint Vocational School) He spent 20 years in the military working in aircraft maintenance. Since that time has spent the past 25 years doing the same in the private sector. Brings home ~$165K a year between his pension and earnings with great benefits.

and all of these people will squander their fortune on boats and campers. and bud light. that's what tradespeople do

I always wanted to learn a trade job.What's the best trades to learn today?

(09-01-2017 09:48 AM)LIBSOC Wrote:  I always wanted to learn a trade job.What's the best trades to learn today?

plumbing, electrical, hvac, pipefitter

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(08-31-2017 05:34 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(08-31-2017 04:52 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This stuff used to be taught in high schools. That's the real crime. Kids don't have shop, FFA, or homec anymore. That's a part of this too.

I wonder who's to blame for that.

Well actually, many of those programs fell by the wayside when standardized testing was implemented and public school funds were tied to test scores under Bush Jr.

I came into the teaching profession during that time and saw it happen first hand.

(08-31-2017 05:51 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  

(08-31-2017 04:52 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This stuff used to be taught in high schools. That's the real crime. Kids don't have shop, FFA, or homec anymore. That's a part of this too.

Teaching kids that only unambitious losers would choose vo-tech also hurts.

Very true.

Because my son completed some of his high school courses in 7th and 8th grade he actually could have taken one course during summer school after his Junior year and graduated. He didn't and as a result the majority of his Senior year, including his entire second semester, was electives. When we were setting up his Senior year schedule he had it where he was taking three courses at the "Technology" center....what had previously been known as the "Vocational Center". His Guidance Counselor pretty much implied what you stated in an attempt to discourage him from doing so.

What she didn't realize is my son is a far better planner than most adults and does an immense amount of research before he makes a big decision. He had already made the decision to enlist in the Army and become a medic and one of the courses, healthcare, would pay a direct benefit. Because of his research and in the off chance he got assigned to an Armor unit the second course would also pay a benefit. In an Armor unit everybody does vehicle maintenance so he took the diesel mechanics course. Turns out he was assigned the 1st Armored Division and at least went in with a rudimentary understanding of what needed to be done. The third he took just for fun but could pay off in the future as he took their Firefighting course. As a result he's completed the academic portion of the first step in becoming a certified firefighter in South Carolina if he were to go to work for one of he departments in this state that is dual Fire/EMS.

(09-01-2017 09:47 AM)Lush Wrote:  and all of these people will squander their fortune on boats and campers. and bud light. that's what tradespeople do

Well lots of white collar workers will squander their fortune on boats and campers, and beer, and McMansions, and cocaine so I'll call it even.

(09-01-2017 10:48 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 09:47 AM)Lush Wrote:  and all of these people will squander their fortune on boats and campers. and bud light. that's what tradespeople do

Well lots of white collar workers will squander their fortune on boats and campers, and beer, and McMansions, and cocaine so I'll call it even.

And the poor people squander their money on beer and crack and meth and heroin.

(09-01-2017 10:51 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:48 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 09:47 AM)Lush Wrote:  and all of these people will squander their fortune on boats and campers. and bud light. that's what tradespeople do

Well lots of white collar workers will squander their fortune on boats and campers, and beer, and McMansions, and cocaine so I'll call it even.

And the poor people squander their money on beer and crack and meth and heroin.

At least the poor have an excuse. They are uneducated and disproportionately minority which means they are often discriminated against.

(09-01-2017 10:24 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-31-2017 05:34 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(08-31-2017 04:52 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This stuff used to be taught in high schools. That's the real crime. Kids don't have shop, FFA, or homec anymore. That's a part of this too.

I wonder who's to blame for that.

Well actually, many of those programs fell by the wayside when standardized testing was implemented and public school funds were tied to test scores under Bush Jr.

I came into the teaching profession during that time and saw it happen first hand.

I can speak about a local school district where all the vo-tech was eliminated and replaced with "technology" meaning computer labs. My family member is the director of technology and I think that was a bad move by the district. They went for the new, shiny bauble, instead of having a robust vo-tech program that would have properly prepared students for the real world.

(09-01-2017 10:55 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:51 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:48 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 09:47 AM)Lush Wrote:  and all of these people will squander their fortune on boats and campers. and bud light. that's what tradespeople do

Well lots of white collar workers will squander their fortune on boats and campers, and beer, and McMansions, and cocaine so I'll call it even.

And the poor people squander their money on beer and crack and meth and heroin.

At least the poor have an excuse. They are uneducated and disproportionately minority which means they are often discriminated against.

There we go. Race as the excuse. Soft racism. Fantastic.

Educational opportunities abound in this country. Might they be poor because they are uneducated, which is their choice, as opposed to uneducated because they are poor? And, proper money management is not dependent on grade level. Don't spend more than you make is a universal.

(09-01-2017 11:10 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:55 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:51 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:48 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 09:47 AM)Lush Wrote:  and all of these people will squander their fortune on boats and campers. and bud light. that's what tradespeople do

Well lots of white collar workers will squander their fortune on boats and campers, and beer, and McMansions, and cocaine so I'll call it even.

And the poor people squander their money on beer and crack and meth and heroin.

At least the poor have an excuse. They are uneducated and disproportionately minority which means they are often discriminated against.

There we go. Race as the excuse. Soft racism. Fantastic.

Educational opportunities abound in this country. Might they be poor because they are uneducated, which is their choice, as opposed to uneducated because they are poor? And, proper money management is not dependent on grade level. Don't spend more than you make is a universal.

Oh I forgot. Minorities choose to be under educated.

(09-01-2017 10:55 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:51 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:48 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 09:47 AM)Lush Wrote:  and all of these people will squander their fortune on boats and campers. and bud light. that's what tradespeople do

Well lots of white collar workers will squander their fortune on boats and campers, and beer, and McMansions, and cocaine so I'll call it even.

And the poor people squander their money on beer and crack and meth and heroin.

At least the poor have an excuse. They are uneducated and disproportionately minority which means they are often discriminated against.

this is one of the most racist things I've ever read.

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(09-01-2017 11:12 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 11:10 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:55 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:51 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:48 AM)VA49er Wrote:  Well lots of white collar workers will squander their fortune on boats and campers, and beer, and McMansions, and cocaine so I'll call it even.

And the poor people squander their money on beer and crack and meth and heroin.

At least the poor have an excuse. They are uneducated and disproportionately minority which means they are often discriminated against.

There we go. Race as the excuse. Soft racism. Fantastic.

Educational opportunities abound in this country. Might they be poor because they are uneducated, which is their choice, as opposed to uneducated because they are poor? And, proper money management is not dependent on grade level. Don't spend more than you make is a universal.

Oh I forgot. Minorities choose to be under educated.

Define undereducated. Education is significantly what the student makes of it. What is the high school dropout rate of the Chicago Public School District?

Are you suggesting that minorities are undereducated purposefully? Explain that mechanism to me.

(09-01-2017 10:55 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:51 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:48 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 09:47 AM)Lush Wrote:  and all of these people will squander their fortune on boats and campers. and bud light. that's what tradespeople do

Well lots of white collar workers will squander their fortune on boats and campers, and beer, and McMansions, and cocaine so I'll call it even.

And the poor people squander their money on beer and crack and meth and heroin.

At least the poor have an excuse. They are uneducated and disproportionately minority which means they are often discriminated against.

Blaming other people, right on cue.

(09-01-2017 12:11 PM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 11:12 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 11:10 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:55 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 10:51 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  And the poor people squander their money on beer and crack and meth and heroin.

At least the poor have an excuse. They are uneducated and disproportionately minority which means they are often discriminated against.

There we go. Race as the excuse. Soft racism. Fantastic.

Educational opportunities abound in this country. Might they be poor because they are uneducated, which is their choice, as opposed to uneducated because they are poor? And, proper money management is not dependent on grade level. Don't spend more than you make is a universal.

Oh I forgot. Minorities choose to be under educated.

Define undereducated. Education is significantly what the student makes of it. What is the high school dropout rate of the Chicago Public School District?

Are you suggesting that minorities are undereducated purposefully? Explain that mechanism to me.

Minorities suffer from poverty in much bigger numbers. Socioeconomic differences has been proven to be a factor in how educated a person becomes.

Therefore, minorities typically do not generally achieve higher educations levels.

It has nothing to do with their "culture" or value system. It has to do with the history of this country and how minorities have been treated in this country going back centuries.

(09-01-2017 12:50 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 12:11 PM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  Define undereducated. Education is significantly what the student makes of it. What is the high school dropout rate of the Chicago Public School District?

Are you suggesting that minorities are undereducated purposefully? Explain that mechanism to me.

Minorities suffer from poverty in much bigger numbers. Socioeconomic differences has been proven to be a factor in how educated a person becomes.

Therefore, minorities typically do not generally achieve higher educations levels.

It has nothing to do with their "culture" or value system. It has to do with the history of this country and how minorities have been treated in this country going back centuries.

And that folks, is why the poor stay poor. It has nothing to do with them, it's the history of the country. Why even try?

If minorities are uneducated it's by choice. I lived in the barrio and there were some who chose to quit school and meander the streets. The smart ones knew that quitting school would get you any meaningless job out there. The smart ones knew that in order to leave the barrio it would take joining the service and learning a trade. The military teaches trades unless you're in the infantry. In the infantry you might learn something of a trade but not enough where it can feed you when you get out. There's not too many jobs where they ask for someone who can shoot a weapon, unless you want to be a cop.

LibSoc wanted to learn a trade I would suggest the medical field. There's always a need for certified medical personnel. As soon as you graduate you're guaranteed a job and many EMTs, Paramedics, get to work on that experience after their retiring from fire departments but they still need a little more training for nursing requiring college.

I didn't like the medical part of being a FF but I loved working on aircraft. I could probably work on the refueling part but for mechanics I would need the A and P license and I wasn't willing to go back to school for that. I was/am happy being retired.

(09-01-2017 12:50 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 12:11 PM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  Define undereducated. Education is significantly what the student makes of it. What is the high school dropout rate of the Chicago Public School District?

Are you suggesting that minorities are undereducated purposefully? Explain that mechanism to me.

Minorities suffer from poverty in much bigger numbers. Socioeconomic differences has been proven to be a factor in how educated a person becomes.

Therefore, minorities typically do not generally achieve higher educations levels.

It has nothing to do with their "culture" or value system. It has to do with the history of this country and how minorities have been treated in this country going back centuries.

You still didn't define "undereducated."

Level of education does not define success in life, nor economic status (above a high school diploma). Nor do "socioeconomic differences" constrict one to a lesser outcome.

In some respect, history is history if we let it be so. You bring it up in the tone of it being an excuse. For example, nearly 50% of black males drop out of high school in Chicago. Neither history, nor their ethnicity causes that. And, typically, people are not dropping out of high school anymore to go to work to support their family.

What causes 50% to drop out? Not having a baby out of wedlock, especially young, and getting a high school diploma are two major steps to middle class success.

I find it tragic that 50% are dropping out, and the best you can offer is they are poor and a minority. They must not value an education?

(09-01-2017 10:48 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 09:47 AM)Lush Wrote:  and all of these people will squander their fortune on boats and campers. and bud light. that's what tradespeople do

Well lots of white collar workers will squander their fortune on boats and campers, and beer, and McMansions, and cocaine so I'll call it even.

right. money's relative. but that's off topic. my uncle's a card carrying journeyman. one day i'll harken his advice and learn me a trade. i'm not a goal oriented person, therefore a trade makes sense. but i'd be more in it for the experiences it offers. you know, like steinbeck. he knew some trades, didn't he?