(08-21-2017 08:13 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:00 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 06:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(08-19-2017 04:40 PM)Artifice Wrote:  If you think CHeat wants to go to court, you know nothing about the law, or specifically the federal rules of procedure. Everything they spent millions on trying to bury would become discoverable, and coaches like Roy Williams and even more damaging witnesses would be compelled to testify under oath under federal penalties for perjury. It would not only be a blood bath, it's the stuff of nightmares for them. The court threat is an empty one offered to calm the anxiety of their fans. It will not happen. They will not risk exposure on substantive issues. It'd be a kamikaze move, a totally ineffectual one.

They are toast. Quit fooling yourself.

What legal authority does the NCAA have? What authority over a government agency like the UNC?

Any power they have has to be voluntary and by contract. That is the weak point in the NCAA enforcement. It is made worse when attempting to enforce something not spelled out in the contract as a violation. They do not have regulatory discretion like government agencies (hence Chevron Deference would not apply), so they can't make it up on the fly. It is going to come down to Contract Law.

Their authority is granted by the consent of the membership of the NCAA. Their power resides in controlling membership status. While drastic they could effectively choose not to recognize games scheduled against North Carolina, or to acknowledge U.N.C.'s right to compete in NCAA events. While I can't recollect this ever having been done, with the exception of S.M.U.'s death penalty, it is their prerogative.

Now if the NCAA chose to go that route they could effectively tie UNC up in court while their athletic teams were ruled ineligible for competition. UNC could seek an injunction, but given the circumstances that it was a private association between UNC and the NCAA where the NCAA was granted a governing and enforcing authority over them by their membership agreement it is at least debatable whether such an injunction would be forthcoming. Restraint of trade could be claimed possibly except state universities are essentially non-profit organizations.

Perhaps UNC could win but it would be a fascinating case to watch unfold. Furthermore, I think there would be many many parties that would not feel favorably toward UNC if it went down that road. The real pressure, that of peer institutions and their conference and scheduling buddies, will be directed toward them swallowing the decision of the NCAA and moving on for the sake of the organization, which for now most are not willing to abandon, and for the sake of maintaining continuity for the scheduling and gate receipts their conference mates and friends would risk losing if UNC were unsuccessful.

They might be able to win legally, but the collateral damage may not be worth the pursuit of that outcome.

I think the NCAA is in a much stronger position here than many believe, but precisely because there is more at stake here than the legal authority of the NCAA. Truly the relationships that would be ensnared by UNC's pursuit of a favorable legal verdict would be potentially more costly. Besides everyone else has had to suck it up, accept the punishment, and get on with it. The tolerance level for UNC will be nil.

And don't think for a second that Sankey doesn't realize the position he is going to be in should Ole Miss get hammered and UNC skate. The SEC wouldn't say anything but his azz would be grazz with our presidents if he comes out of this with the perception that a school much guiltier of lack of institutional control than Ole Miss walks while one of his is forced to accept heavy sanctions.

The rest of the committee is comprised of a retired football coach from Northern Illinois, the head of a federal regulatory commission, a dean of a law school, and a couple of others.

This is why I don't think there will be an appeal. But I do think there will be a reduction in scholarships, post season bans, a stripping of wins and titles, and probably a probation period for the administration to show proper oversight. And like it or not the baby blue militia is going to have to swallow it, smile, and move on.

When you deal in half-truths it's easy to bend the conversation. But when the entire truth is revealed sometimes things look a little different.
If the findings are not acceptable there will be an appeal and if denied there will be a court case. http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/...s-74905598
What the University is hoping for is full disclosure. The NCAA has violated their own procedures, not only in the UNC case but the entire portfolio of past NCAA rulings will become an object of scrutiny, which the NCAA will not want on public display.

Your little flag waiving emoticon can't put kitty litter on 30 years worth of tootsie rolls in the sandbox at Chapel Hill. Ohio State, Penn State, Alabama, USC, and very soon Ole Miss will all have taken it like men with a stiff upper lip and a we'll get through it attitude. Chapel Hill will have to do the same. Nobody is ready to follow you out of the NCAA right now. If the P5 want to do that they will have to get better organized and account for the various tournaments, develop their own rules and enforcement protocols, and quite possibly find some way to standardize officiating.

I'm not against replacing the NCAA, but I just don't think you have the timing right to get a following on this right now.

Don't be foolish JR, we don't intend to leave the NCAA. If this matter goes to court we will own the NCAA.
There is evidence to prove that:
Auburn
Iowa
KSU
Neb
SoCal
NCSU
OSU
Stanford
PSU
all have classes taught by their athletic departments for academic credit for athletes only.

The NCAA is claiming that UNC classes were an impermissible benefit when less that 30% of the students were athletes at the time they enrolled in the classes which were all taught by a Dean of an Academic Department.

Nebraska for instance offers ATHP101-varsity football practice
100% athletes
enrolled in this class by athletics advisors
There is NO ACDADEMIC work required
All of the grades are assigned by the Athletics coaches and their staff
Nebraska allows up to 10 hours of credit toward NCAA eligibility AND graduation for football practice classes

If we do get to court the issue won't be what happened in the AF/AM department it will be on the process in which the NCAA judges and hands out punishment.

(08-21-2017 01:09 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:13 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:00 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 06:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  What legal authority does the NCAA have? What authority over a government agency like the UNC?

Any power they have has to be voluntary and by contract. That is the weak point in the NCAA enforcement. It is made worse when attempting to enforce something not spelled out in the contract as a violation. They do not have regulatory discretion like government agencies (hence Chevron Deference would not apply), so they can't make it up on the fly. It is going to come down to Contract Law.

Their authority is granted by the consent of the membership of the NCAA. Their power resides in controlling membership status. While drastic they could effectively choose not to recognize games scheduled against North Carolina, or to acknowledge U.N.C.'s right to compete in NCAA events. While I can't recollect this ever having been done, with the exception of S.M.U.'s death penalty, it is their prerogative.

Now if the NCAA chose to go that route they could effectively tie UNC up in court while their athletic teams were ruled ineligible for competition. UNC could seek an injunction, but given the circumstances that it was a private association between UNC and the NCAA where the NCAA was granted a governing and enforcing authority over them by their membership agreement it is at least debatable whether such an injunction would be forthcoming. Restraint of trade could be claimed possibly except state universities are essentially non-profit organizations.

Perhaps UNC could win but it would be a fascinating case to watch unfold. Furthermore, I think there would be many many parties that would not feel favorably toward UNC if it went down that road. The real pressure, that of peer institutions and their conference and scheduling buddies, will be directed toward them swallowing the decision of the NCAA and moving on for the sake of the organization, which for now most are not willing to abandon, and for the sake of maintaining continuity for the scheduling and gate receipts their conference mates and friends would risk losing if UNC were unsuccessful.

They might be able to win legally, but the collateral damage may not be worth the pursuit of that outcome.

I think the NCAA is in a much stronger position here than many believe, but precisely because there is more at stake here than the legal authority of the NCAA. Truly the relationships that would be ensnared by UNC's pursuit of a favorable legal verdict would be potentially more costly. Besides everyone else has had to suck it up, accept the punishment, and get on with it. The tolerance level for UNC will be nil.

And don't think for a second that Sankey doesn't realize the position he is going to be in should Ole Miss get hammered and UNC skate. The SEC wouldn't say anything but his azz would be grazz with our presidents if he comes out of this with the perception that a school much guiltier of lack of institutional control than Ole Miss walks while one of his is forced to accept heavy sanctions.

The rest of the committee is comprised of a retired football coach from Northern Illinois, the head of a federal regulatory commission, a dean of a law school, and a couple of others.

This is why I don't think there will be an appeal. But I do think there will be a reduction in scholarships, post season bans, a stripping of wins and titles, and probably a probation period for the administration to show proper oversight. And like it or not the baby blue militia is going to have to swallow it, smile, and move on.

When you deal in half-truths it's easy to bend the conversation. But when the entire truth is revealed sometimes things look a little different.
If the findings are not acceptable there will be an appeal and if denied there will be a court case. http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/...s-74905598
What the University is hoping for is full disclosure. The NCAA has violated their own procedures, not only in the UNC case but the entire portfolio of past NCAA rulings will become an object of scrutiny, which the NCAA will not want on public display.

Your little flag waiving emoticon can't put kitty litter on 30 years worth of tootsie rolls in the sandbox at Chapel Hill. Ohio State, Penn State, Alabama, USC, and very soon Ole Miss will all have taken it like men with a stiff upper lip and a we'll get through it attitude. Chapel Hill will have to do the same. Nobody is ready to follow you out of the NCAA right now. If the P5 want to do that they will have to get better organized and account for the various tournaments, develop their own rules and enforcement protocols, and quite possibly find some way to standardize officiating.

I'm not against replacing the NCAA, but I just don't think you have the timing right to get a following on this right now.

Don't be foolish JR, we don't intend to leave the NCAA. If this matter goes to court we will own the NCAA.
There is evidence to prove that:
Auburn
Iowa
KSU
Neb
SoCal
NCSU
OSU
Stanford
PSU
all have classes taught by their athletic departments for academic credit for athletes only.

The NCAA is claiming that UNC classes were an impermissible benefit when less that 30% of the students were athletes at the time they enrolled in the classes which were all taught by a Dean of an Academic Department.

Nebraska for instance offers ATHP101-varsity football practice
100% athletes
enrolled in this class by athletics advisors
There is NO ACDADEMIC work required
All of the grades are assigned by the Athletics coaches and their staff
Nebraska allows up to 10 hours of credit toward NCAA eligibility AND graduation for football practice classes

If we do get to court the issue won't be what happened in the AF/AM department it will be on the process in which the NCAA judges and hands out punishment.

That's not the same thing though.

Personally, I don't have a problem giving the kids a few hours worth of credit for all the work they put into athletics.

I do, on the other hand, have a problem with classes operating under the guise of legitimate academic endeavors whose sole purpose is to provide players with grades.

One is underhanded and the other is not.

(08-21-2017 01:45 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 01:09 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:13 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:00 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 06:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Their authority is granted by the consent of the membership of the NCAA. Their power resides in controlling membership status. While drastic they could effectively choose not to recognize games scheduled against North Carolina, or to acknowledge U.N.C.'s right to compete in NCAA events. While I can't recollect this ever having been done, with the exception of S.M.U.'s death penalty, it is their prerogative.

Now if the NCAA chose to go that route they could effectively tie UNC up in court while their athletic teams were ruled ineligible for competition. UNC could seek an injunction, but given the circumstances that it was a private association between UNC and the NCAA where the NCAA was granted a governing and enforcing authority over them by their membership agreement it is at least debatable whether such an injunction would be forthcoming. Restraint of trade could be claimed possibly except state universities are essentially non-profit organizations.

Perhaps UNC could win but it would be a fascinating case to watch unfold. Furthermore, I think there would be many many parties that would not feel favorably toward UNC if it went down that road. The real pressure, that of peer institutions and their conference and scheduling buddies, will be directed toward them swallowing the decision of the NCAA and moving on for the sake of the organization, which for now most are not willing to abandon, and for the sake of maintaining continuity for the scheduling and gate receipts their conference mates and friends would risk losing if UNC were unsuccessful.

They might be able to win legally, but the collateral damage may not be worth the pursuit of that outcome.

I think the NCAA is in a much stronger position here than many believe, but precisely because there is more at stake here than the legal authority of the NCAA. Truly the relationships that would be ensnared by UNC's pursuit of a favorable legal verdict would be potentially more costly. Besides everyone else has had to suck it up, accept the punishment, and get on with it. The tolerance level for UNC will be nil.

And don't think for a second that Sankey doesn't realize the position he is going to be in should Ole Miss get hammered and UNC skate. The SEC wouldn't say anything but his azz would be grazz with our presidents if he comes out of this with the perception that a school much guiltier of lack of institutional control than Ole Miss walks while one of his is forced to accept heavy sanctions.

The rest of the committee is comprised of a retired football coach from Northern Illinois, the head of a federal regulatory commission, a dean of a law school, and a couple of others.

This is why I don't think there will be an appeal. But I do think there will be a reduction in scholarships, post season bans, a stripping of wins and titles, and probably a probation period for the administration to show proper oversight. And like it or not the baby blue militia is going to have to swallow it, smile, and move on.

When you deal in half-truths it's easy to bend the conversation. But when the entire truth is revealed sometimes things look a little different.
If the findings are not acceptable there will be an appeal and if denied there will be a court case. http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/...s-74905598
What the University is hoping for is full disclosure. The NCAA has violated their own procedures, not only in the UNC case but the entire portfolio of past NCAA rulings will become an object of scrutiny, which the NCAA will not want on public display.

Your little flag waiving emoticon can't put kitty litter on 30 years worth of tootsie rolls in the sandbox at Chapel Hill. Ohio State, Penn State, Alabama, USC, and very soon Ole Miss will all have taken it like men with a stiff upper lip and a we'll get through it attitude. Chapel Hill will have to do the same. Nobody is ready to follow you out of the NCAA right now. If the P5 want to do that they will have to get better organized and account for the various tournaments, develop their own rules and enforcement protocols, and quite possibly find some way to standardize officiating.

I'm not against replacing the NCAA, but I just don't think you have the timing right to get a following on this right now.

Don't be foolish JR, we don't intend to leave the NCAA. If this matter goes to court we will own the NCAA.
There is evidence to prove that:
Auburn
Iowa
KSU
Neb
SoCal
NCSU
OSU
Stanford
PSU
all have classes taught by their athletic departments for academic credit for athletes only.

The NCAA is claiming that UNC classes were an impermissible benefit when less that 30% of the students were athletes at the time they enrolled in the classes which were all taught by a Dean of an Academic Department.

Nebraska for instance offers ATHP101-varsity football practice
100% athletes
enrolled in this class by athletics advisors
There is NO ACDADEMIC work required
All of the grades are assigned by the Athletics coaches and their staff
Nebraska allows up to 10 hours of credit toward NCAA eligibility AND graduation for football practice classes

If we do get to court the issue won't be what happened in the AF/AM department it will be on the process in which the NCAA judges and hands out punishment.

That's not the same thing though.

Personally, I don't have a problem giving the kids a few hours worth of credit for all the work they put into athletics.

I do, on the other hand, have a problem with classes operating under the guise of legitimate academic endeavors whose sole purpose is to provide players with grades.

One is underhanded and the other is not.

OTOH, UNC might end up taking those other schools down and making all sorts of enemies in the process...

(08-21-2017 02:20 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 01:45 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 01:09 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:13 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:00 AM)XLance Wrote:  
When you deal in half-truths it's easy to bend the conversation. But when the entire truth is revealed sometimes things look a little different.
If the findings are not acceptable there will be an appeal and if denied there will be a court case. http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/...s-74905598
What the University is hoping for is full disclosure. The NCAA has violated their own procedures, not only in the UNC case but the entire portfolio of past NCAA rulings will become an object of scrutiny, which the NCAA will not want on public display.

Your little flag waiving emoticon can't put kitty litter on 30 years worth of tootsie rolls in the sandbox at Chapel Hill. Ohio State, Penn State, Alabama, USC, and very soon Ole Miss will all have taken it like men with a stiff upper lip and a we'll get through it attitude. Chapel Hill will have to do the same. Nobody is ready to follow you out of the NCAA right now. If the P5 want to do that they will have to get better organized and account for the various tournaments, develop their own rules and enforcement protocols, and quite possibly find some way to standardize officiating.

I'm not against replacing the NCAA, but I just don't think you have the timing right to get a following on this right now.

Don't be foolish JR, we don't intend to leave the NCAA. If this matter goes to court we will own the NCAA.
There is evidence to prove that:
Auburn
Iowa
KSU
Neb
SoCal
NCSU
OSU
Stanford
PSU
all have classes taught by their athletic departments for academic credit for athletes only.

The NCAA is claiming that UNC classes were an impermissible benefit when less that 30% of the students were athletes at the time they enrolled in the classes which were all taught by a Dean of an Academic Department.

Nebraska for instance offers ATHP101-varsity football practice
100% athletes
enrolled in this class by athletics advisors
There is NO ACDADEMIC work required
All of the grades are assigned by the Athletics coaches and their staff
Nebraska allows up to 10 hours of credit toward NCAA eligibility AND graduation for football practice classes

If we do get to court the issue won't be what happened in the AF/AM department it will be on the process in which the NCAA judges and hands out punishment.

That's not the same thing though.

Personally, I don't have a problem giving the kids a few hours worth of credit for all the work they put into athletics.

I do, on the other hand, have a problem with classes operating under the guise of legitimate academic endeavors whose sole purpose is to provide players with grades.

One is underhanded and the other is not.

OTOH, UNC might end up taking those other schools down and making all sorts of enemies in the process...

Nope, not going to happen.

The excuses change but the crimes do not.

1. Cheating to keep morons eligible
2. Running a shadow curriculum for athletes
3. Allowing it to morph out of control
4. Lying and obfuscating when finally caught
5. Refusing to just admit the truth, take a reasonable punishment and go forward.

It's like an old Eastern European Communist Government that claims you do not see what you do see. It is the insult to the intelligence that is difficult to take and the arrogance after being caught that is nauseating.

It demonstrates a total lack of ethics and morality. It's an anti-social mode of behavior that says "our **** does not stink, but yours does". It makes you unable to trust anything they say or do.

SEC counterparts would just have said "okay you got us". B10 counterparts would have taken their punishment and kept their mouths shut.

What's really sickening for NC State folks is that we can not escape this cancer.

Most tragically it undercuts the mission of the University, the reputation of the Medical and Professional schools and programs, the Social Advocacy side of the University, and cheapens the degrees from Chapel Hill.

Frank Porter Graham would be ashamed.

(08-21-2017 01:45 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 01:09 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:13 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:00 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 06:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Their authority is granted by the consent of the membership of the NCAA. Their power resides in controlling membership status. While drastic they could effectively choose not to recognize games scheduled against North Carolina, or to acknowledge U.N.C.'s right to compete in NCAA events. While I can't recollect this ever having been done, with the exception of S.M.U.'s death penalty, it is their prerogative.

Now if the NCAA chose to go that route they could effectively tie UNC up in court while their athletic teams were ruled ineligible for competition. UNC could seek an injunction, but given the circumstances that it was a private association between UNC and the NCAA where the NCAA was granted a governing and enforcing authority over them by their membership agreement it is at least debatable whether such an injunction would be forthcoming. Restraint of trade could be claimed possibly except state universities are essentially non-profit organizations.

Perhaps UNC could win but it would be a fascinating case to watch unfold. Furthermore, I think there would be many many parties that would not feel favorably toward UNC if it went down that road. The real pressure, that of peer institutions and their conference and scheduling buddies, will be directed toward them swallowing the decision of the NCAA and moving on for the sake of the organization, which for now most are not willing to abandon, and for the sake of maintaining continuity for the scheduling and gate receipts their conference mates and friends would risk losing if UNC were unsuccessful.

They might be able to win legally, but the collateral damage may not be worth the pursuit of that outcome.

I think the NCAA is in a much stronger position here than many believe, but precisely because there is more at stake here than the legal authority of the NCAA. Truly the relationships that would be ensnared by UNC's pursuit of a favorable legal verdict would be potentially more costly. Besides everyone else has had to suck it up, accept the punishment, and get on with it. The tolerance level for UNC will be nil.

And don't think for a second that Sankey doesn't realize the position he is going to be in should Ole Miss get hammered and UNC skate. The SEC wouldn't say anything but his azz would be grazz with our presidents if he comes out of this with the perception that a school much guiltier of lack of institutional control than Ole Miss walks while one of his is forced to accept heavy sanctions.

The rest of the committee is comprised of a retired football coach from Northern Illinois, the head of a federal regulatory commission, a dean of a law school, and a couple of others.

This is why I don't think there will be an appeal. But I do think there will be a reduction in scholarships, post season bans, a stripping of wins and titles, and probably a probation period for the administration to show proper oversight. And like it or not the baby blue militia is going to have to swallow it, smile, and move on.

When you deal in half-truths it's easy to bend the conversation. But when the entire truth is revealed sometimes things look a little different.
If the findings are not acceptable there will be an appeal and if denied there will be a court case. http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/...s-74905598
What the University is hoping for is full disclosure. The NCAA has violated their own procedures, not only in the UNC case but the entire portfolio of past NCAA rulings will become an object of scrutiny, which the NCAA will not want on public display.

Your little flag waiving emoticon can't put kitty litter on 30 years worth of tootsie rolls in the sandbox at Chapel Hill. Ohio State, Penn State, Alabama, USC, and very soon Ole Miss will all have taken it like men with a stiff upper lip and a we'll get through it attitude. Chapel Hill will have to do the same. Nobody is ready to follow you out of the NCAA right now. If the P5 want to do that they will have to get better organized and account for the various tournaments, develop their own rules and enforcement protocols, and quite possibly find some way to standardize officiating.

I'm not against replacing the NCAA, but I just don't think you have the timing right to get a following on this right now.

Don't be foolish JR, we don't intend to leave the NCAA. If this matter goes to court we will own the NCAA.
There is evidence to prove that:
Auburn
Iowa
KSU
Neb
SoCal
NCSU
OSU
Stanford
PSU
all have classes taught by their athletic departments for academic credit for athletes only.

The NCAA is claiming that UNC classes were an impermissible benefit when less that 30% of the students were athletes at the time they enrolled in the classes which were all taught by a Dean of an Academic Department.

Nebraska for instance offers ATHP101-varsity football practice
100% athletes
enrolled in this class by athletics advisors
There is NO ACDADEMIC work required
All of the grades are assigned by the Athletics coaches and their staff
Nebraska allows up to 10 hours of credit toward NCAA eligibility AND graduation for football practice classes

If we do get to court the issue won't be what happened in the AF/AM department it will be on the process in which the NCAA judges and hands out punishment.

That's not the same thing though.

Personally, I don't have a problem giving the kids a few hours worth of credit for all the work they put into athletics.

I do, on the other hand, have a problem with classes operating under the guise of legitimate academic endeavors whose sole purpose is to provide players with grades.

One is underhanded and the other is not.

You are correct!
Less than 30% of the students enrolled in the classes at UNC were involved in athletics, while at the other institutions 100% of the students were athletes. At Carolina no athlete was given any credit hours for going to practice.
Yes, there is a difference, a big difference. And which do you think constitutes an impermissible benefit as defined by the NCAA, the course only open to athletes or the course available to the entire student body?

(08-21-2017 02:43 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 01:45 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 01:09 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:13 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:00 AM)XLance Wrote:  
When you deal in half-truths it's easy to bend the conversation. But when the entire truth is revealed sometimes things look a little different.
If the findings are not acceptable there will be an appeal and if denied there will be a court case. http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/...s-74905598
What the University is hoping for is full disclosure. The NCAA has violated their own procedures, not only in the UNC case but the entire portfolio of past NCAA rulings will become an object of scrutiny, which the NCAA will not want on public display.

Your little flag waiving emoticon can't put kitty litter on 30 years worth of tootsie rolls in the sandbox at Chapel Hill. Ohio State, Penn State, Alabama, USC, and very soon Ole Miss will all have taken it like men with a stiff upper lip and a we'll get through it attitude. Chapel Hill will have to do the same. Nobody is ready to follow you out of the NCAA right now. If the P5 want to do that they will have to get better organized and account for the various tournaments, develop their own rules and enforcement protocols, and quite possibly find some way to standardize officiating.

I'm not against replacing the NCAA, but I just don't think you have the timing right to get a following on this right now.

Don't be foolish JR, we don't intend to leave the NCAA. If this matter goes to court we will own the NCAA.
There is evidence to prove that:
Auburn
Iowa
KSU
Neb
SoCal
NCSU
OSU
Stanford
PSU
all have classes taught by their athletic departments for academic credit for athletes only.

The NCAA is claiming that UNC classes were an impermissible benefit when less that 30% of the students were athletes at the time they enrolled in the classes which were all taught by a Dean of an Academic Department.

Nebraska for instance offers ATHP101-varsity football practice
100% athletes
enrolled in this class by athletics advisors
There is NO ACDADEMIC work required
All of the grades are assigned by the Athletics coaches and their staff
Nebraska allows up to 10 hours of credit toward NCAA eligibility AND graduation for football practice classes

If we do get to court the issue won't be what happened in the AF/AM department it will be on the process in which the NCAA judges and hands out punishment.

That's not the same thing though.

Personally, I don't have a problem giving the kids a few hours worth of credit for all the work they put into athletics.

I do, on the other hand, have a problem with classes operating under the guise of legitimate academic endeavors whose sole purpose is to provide players with grades.

One is underhanded and the other is not.

You are correct!
Less than 30% of the students enrolled in the classes at UNC were involved in athletics, while at the other institutions 100% of the students were athletes. At Carolina no athlete was given any credit hours for going to practice.
Yes, there is a difference, a big difference. And which do you think constitutes an impermissible benefit as defined by the NCAA, the course only open to athletes or the course available to the entire student body?

X, you are either a willing drinker of the kool-aid, a spinmeister for the administration, or just pulling our leg. The classes at most of these schools, the 10 hours you refer to took the place of the P.E. requirements that until the time of millennials was a requirement almost everywhere for all students. Most of those classes had one written exam, the final. Otherwise you learned and played a sport, or just learned to swim, or if you knew how to swim got your lifesaving courses completed.

You're wanting to pretend that somehow fraud is not an issue. It is. It's a big one! There is really no debating this issue. The decision will come down and UNC will respond how they wish. I'm just pointing out that if there is a decision to continue to litigate there will be some nasty consequences from that action, but there will be even nastier unintended and collateral consequences as well. Proceed at your own risk.

(08-21-2017 01:09 PM)XLance Wrote:  The NCAA is claiming that UNC classes were an impermissible benefit when less that 30% of the students were athletes at the time they enrolled in the classes which were all taught by a Dean of an Academic Department.

What is it with UNC CHeat fans? Is one of their other majors burying their heads in the sand?

These classes @ CHeat weren't taught. There were no classes. There were no professors (except when bifurcated in another attempt at a cover up), and there were no tests. There were copy pasted "papers" (if a paragraph copy pasted from Wikiepedia counts as a paper), sometimes with multiple athletes turning in the same paper for the same course at the same time, and then these were graded by a secretary after she consulted with the athletics administration about what grades they needed to maintain eligibility. This was ACADEMIC FRAUD, as admitted in writing to the SACS, by the university.

Quote:Your little flag waiving emoticon can't put kitty litter on 30 years worth of tootsie rolls in the sandbox at Chapel Hill. Ohio State, Penn State, Alabama, USC, and very soon Ole Miss will all have taken it like men with a stiff upper lip and a we'll get through it attitude. Chapel Hill will have to do the same.

These are the best lines of the thread. Masterfully stated. Game. Set. Match.

PS - please please please follow through on your idiotic strategy for a federal action. My god, I'd love to see Ole Roy, and Crowder, and all the other "snakes" deposed, under oath. It'd be amazing. 5 years of federal prison PER count of perjury, with no probation (18 U.S.C. § 1623).

College football has always done business the wrong way (this is wider than just a P5 issue). What needs to happen is for a new special governing body to be formed for College Football. It is a different animal than anything else - and there needs to be a set of rules agreed to that actually make some sort of sense.

It is very hard to run a remotely competitive program while trying to keep most of everything above board. I would rather see softer rules that ACTUALLY GET ENFORCED over strict regulations that anyone with a brain has a work around for. It defeats the whole point of having an NCAA.

(08-21-2017 02:43 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 01:45 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 01:09 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:13 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:00 AM)XLance Wrote:  
When you deal in half-truths it's easy to bend the conversation. But when the entire truth is revealed sometimes things look a little different.
If the findings are not acceptable there will be an appeal and if denied there will be a court case. http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/...s-74905598
What the University is hoping for is full disclosure. The NCAA has violated their own procedures, not only in the UNC case but the entire portfolio of past NCAA rulings will become an object of scrutiny, which the NCAA will not want on public display.

Your little flag waiving emoticon can't put kitty litter on 30 years worth of tootsie rolls in the sandbox at Chapel Hill. Ohio State, Penn State, Alabama, USC, and very soon Ole Miss will all have taken it like men with a stiff upper lip and a we'll get through it attitude. Chapel Hill will have to do the same. Nobody is ready to follow you out of the NCAA right now. If the P5 want to do that they will have to get better organized and account for the various tournaments, develop their own rules and enforcement protocols, and quite possibly find some way to standardize officiating.

I'm not against replacing the NCAA, but I just don't think you have the timing right to get a following on this right now.

Don't be foolish JR, we don't intend to leave the NCAA. If this matter goes to court we will own the NCAA.
There is evidence to prove that:
Auburn
Iowa
KSU
Neb
SoCal
NCSU
OSU
Stanford
PSU
all have classes taught by their athletic departments for academic credit for athletes only.

The NCAA is claiming that UNC classes were an impermissible benefit when less that 30% of the students were athletes at the time they enrolled in the classes which were all taught by a Dean of an Academic Department.

Nebraska for instance offers ATHP101-varsity football practice
100% athletes
enrolled in this class by athletics advisors
There is NO ACDADEMIC work required
All of the grades are assigned by the Athletics coaches and their staff
Nebraska allows up to 10 hours of credit toward NCAA eligibility AND graduation for football practice classes

If we do get to court the issue won't be what happened in the AF/AM department it will be on the process in which the NCAA judges and hands out punishment.

That's not the same thing though.

Personally, I don't have a problem giving the kids a few hours worth of credit for all the work they put into athletics.

I do, on the other hand, have a problem with classes operating under the guise of legitimate academic endeavors whose sole purpose is to provide players with grades.

One is underhanded and the other is not.

You are correct!
Less than 30% of the students enrolled in the classes at UNC were involved in athletics, while at the other institutions 100% of the students were athletes. At Carolina no athlete was given any credit hours for going to practice.
Yes, there is a difference, a big difference. And which do you think constitutes an impermissible benefit as defined by the NCAA, the course only open to athletes or the course available to the entire student body?

I don't think those have ever been found to be impermissible.

You don't get credit if you don't take a class. You don't get credit for a class you don't have the prerequisites for.

(08-19-2017 04:40 PM)Artifice Wrote:  If you think CHeat wants to go to court, you know nothing about the law, or specifically the federal rules of procedure. Everything they spent millions on trying to bury would become discoverable, and coaches like Roy Williams and even more damaging witnesses would be compelled to testify under oath under federal penalties for perjury. It would not only be a blood bath, it's the stuff of nightmares for them. The court threat is an empty one offered to calm the anxiety of their fans. It will not happen. They will not risk exposure on substantive issues. It'd be a kamikaze move, a totally ineffectual one.

They are toast. Quit fooling yourself.

Yes. At some point the alumni who don't want to have their degree devalued for year after year will tell them to quit.

(08-21-2017 02:20 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 01:45 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 01:09 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:13 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:00 AM)XLance Wrote:  
When you deal in half-truths it's easy to bend the conversation. But when the entire truth is revealed sometimes things look a little different.
If the findings are not acceptable there will be an appeal and if denied there will be a court case. http://scout.com/college/north-carolina/...s-74905598
What the University is hoping for is full disclosure. The NCAA has violated their own procedures, not only in the UNC case but the entire portfolio of past NCAA rulings will become an object of scrutiny, which the NCAA will not want on public display.

Your little flag waiving emoticon can't put kitty litter on 30 years worth of tootsie rolls in the sandbox at Chapel Hill. Ohio State, Penn State, Alabama, USC, and very soon Ole Miss will all have taken it like men with a stiff upper lip and a we'll get through it attitude. Chapel Hill will have to do the same. Nobody is ready to follow you out of the NCAA right now. If the P5 want to do that they will have to get better organized and account for the various tournaments, develop their own rules and enforcement protocols, and quite possibly find some way to standardize officiating.

I'm not against replacing the NCAA, but I just don't think you have the timing right to get a following on this right now.

Don't be foolish JR, we don't intend to leave the NCAA. If this matter goes to court we will own the NCAA.
There is evidence to prove that:
Auburn
Iowa
KSU
Neb
SoCal
NCSU
OSU
Stanford
PSU
all have classes taught by their athletic departments for academic credit for athletes only.

The NCAA is claiming that UNC classes were an impermissible benefit when less that 30% of the students were athletes at the time they enrolled in the classes which were all taught by a Dean of an Academic Department.

Nebraska for instance offers ATHP101-varsity football practice
100% athletes
enrolled in this class by athletics advisors
There is NO ACDADEMIC work required
All of the grades are assigned by the Athletics coaches and their staff
Nebraska allows up to 10 hours of credit toward NCAA eligibility AND graduation for football practice classes

If we do get to court the issue won't be what happened in the AF/AM department it will be on the process in which the NCAA judges and hands out punishment.

That's not the same thing though.

Personally, I don't have a problem giving the kids a few hours worth of credit for all the work they put into athletics.

I do, on the other hand, have a problem with classes operating under the guise of legitimate academic endeavors whose sole purpose is to provide players with grades.

One is underhanded and the other is not.

OTOH, UNC might end up taking those other schools down and making all sorts of enemies in the process...

Nobody has ever done anything on the scale of UNC in the last 80 years. Schools have cheated for individual athletes. And lots of schools have easy classes, but nobody has set up fake classes for years and years targeted at all the athletes.

Its black and white. Does the NCAA want to continue in the enforcement process or does it want to allow a loophole big enough to drive an 18 wheeler through?

(08-22-2017 12:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 02:20 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 01:45 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 01:09 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-21-2017 08:13 AM)JRsec Wrote:  Your little flag waiving emoticon can't put kitty litter on 30 years worth of tootsie rolls in the sandbox at Chapel Hill. Ohio State, Penn State, Alabama, USC, and very soon Ole Miss will all have taken it like men with a stiff upper lip and a we'll get through it attitude. Chapel Hill will have to do the same. Nobody is ready to follow you out of the NCAA right now. If the P5 want to do that they will have to get better organized and account for the various tournaments, develop their own rules and enforcement protocols, and quite possibly find some way to standardize officiating.

I'm not against replacing the NCAA, but I just don't think you have the timing right to get a following on this right now.

Don't be foolish JR, we don't intend to leave the NCAA. If this matter goes to court we will own the NCAA.
There is evidence to prove that:
Auburn
Iowa
KSU
Neb
SoCal
NCSU
OSU
Stanford
PSU
all have classes taught by their athletic departments for academic credit for athletes only.

The NCAA is claiming that UNC classes were an impermissible benefit when less that 30% of the students were athletes at the time they enrolled in the classes which were all taught by a Dean of an Academic Department.

Nebraska for instance offers ATHP101-varsity football practice
100% athletes
enrolled in this class by athletics advisors
There is NO ACDADEMIC work required
All of the grades are assigned by the Athletics coaches and their staff
Nebraska allows up to 10 hours of credit toward NCAA eligibility AND graduation for football practice classes

If we do get to court the issue won't be what happened in the AF/AM department it will be on the process in which the NCAA judges and hands out punishment.

That's not the same thing though.

Personally, I don't have a problem giving the kids a few hours worth of credit for all the work they put into athletics.

I do, on the other hand, have a problem with classes operating under the guise of legitimate academic endeavors whose sole purpose is to provide players with grades.

One is underhanded and the other is not.

OTOH, UNC might end up taking those other schools down and making all sorts of enemies in the process...

Nobody has ever done anything on the scale of UNC in the last 80 years. Schools have cheated for individual athletes. And lots of schools have easy classes, but nobody has set up fake classes for years and years targeted at all the athletes.

Its black and white. Does the NCAA want to continue in the enforcement process or does it want to allow a loophole big enough to drive an 18 wheeler through?

It is truly crazy. If this was going on at Florida State or Auburn both programs would be shown a heavy penalty. If this had be U of Miami they would have been given the dealth penalty and at best 5 years bowl ban.

(08-19-2017 03:52 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The NCAA keeps changing their notice because they are searching for legal grounds their authority can hold. The last thing the NCAA wants is to get into court and have a judgment in favor of UNC that says they lack the authority. That would gut the NCAA of all power over schools.

Morally the NCAA is 100% in the right. But as an association it gets very murky about their ability to legally punish members, especially when it comes to actions not definitively spelled out in their contracts (e.g., ByLaws). Being a monopoly does not help them here. Their powers are limited to what the members contractually agree to. The only thing the courts can rule on is the contract. Who is in compliance and who is not. And whether actions are appropriate and within the terms of the contract or are extra, not defined. Even Chevron deference would not work here because the NCAA is not a government agency (and congress did not explicitly surrender rules writing to them).

If I were a betting man, I'd place money UNC wins anything that gets to court. Were I the NCAA I would place a new person in charge and send them to negotiate a sanction UNC would accept, that is mostly by their own implementation. The biggest thing I would fear is losing all authority over member schools. (I would also start a committee to begin drafting new language for member school contracts that spell out the authority of the NCAA in more detail and get it ratified, including certain aspects of academic enforcement. Then get that approved by the NCAA membership.)

I think UNC needs a nasty penalty, but I think they are very likely to prevail should this get to court.

I almost think the NCAA would benefit from a loss in court. I think that the NCAA member schools would alter the NCAA charter to give them more rights to penalize schools like UNC.

The outcome would be similar to the NFL's outcome with Deflategate - on the surface it looks like a loss, but in the end everyone got what they wanted (Brady got to play in the Super Bowl, the NFL still got to say they punished him as severely as they could).