(08-25-2017 07:10 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(08-25-2017 02:19 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-25-2017 02:14 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Until Saban either retires, or loses his grip (the older you get the more gap between you and your staff, it's what eventually does in legendary coaches), or the rotating SEC scandal about paying players to pick their schools hits Tuscaloosa (most recent hit are the two Mississippi schools).

I think Saban does not want to coach until he loses his grip, as happened to guys like Joe Paterno, Bobby Bowdon and before Woody Hayes. I see him retiring at 68 or 69, not carrying it on into his 70s. So 3 more years. I don't know that he wants to live in a big city, as he seems more comfortable in a college town. But an NFL executive spot (many teams) is waiting for him if he wants after Alabama.

And just how do you think it is that Urban and Harbaugh are competing for recruits in the Southeast and Southwest? The game is played the same by everyone recruiting those areas. It's just that coaches like Saban and Meyer already have the goods on others, and other have the goods on them. So it abides by mutual consent to do no harm. While the means of coercion have changed, the reality of it remains the same as it was when I checked up allegations, and scrutinized the pursuit of top recruits.

Huh? I think another SEC school will rise up with a young coach or Clemson will eclipse them all. I don't see the inevitable decline of an older coach having any impact on the relative strength of any conference or other program. Somebody is always getting better.

I just meant as coaches get older it gets harder and harder to keep the respect of your subordinates and you don't catch everything going on behind your back like you did when you were younger. The mind gets progressively slower with age. Even Bear Bryant was not the same figure his final couple years he was prior. I do not think Saban in immune to effects of age. But I also think he is smart enough to recognize when his edge is coming off, so he will retire while still dominant, and able to pick his successor - stay too long you lose that (think the Florida State situation -- Penn State is a bit extreme).

70 seems to me a good age to step away, 2 years later than most people retire, and when he'll be as much as twice the age of some of his competitors, even in the SEC. I simply see Saban as a man with the good sense to not put in two or three meh years where the media is buzzing about his replacement, as is almost inevitable when he hits 71 and 72.

What has that to do with Harbaugh (who never lasts more than 5 years anywhere) or Meyer?

I am very much looking forward to Dabo's return home to Alabama.

(08-25-2017 07:24 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The post was in reference to the "rotating paying of players reference". I was merely pointing out that all of the players, including those in the North, are a part of that hypocrisy and that Urban and Harbaugh have learned how to play that game in order to land key Southern and Southwestern recruits. Since all of the coaches know what each other has done it serves no ones interest to bring it up.

Freeze never had control of his program and was horribly amateurish in his attempts to play catch up. Therefore they are going to get leveled. Urban and Saban are smart enough not to start wars in which they would suffer collateral damage. Freeze was ultimately ratted out by his players who flashed cash for signing on Utube and with the NFL draft night fiasco.

I meant like this one

Dennis Dodd‏ Verified account @dennisdoddcbs

Leo Lewis' mom said LSU offered her son $650,000. Discuss.
9:22 PM - 25 Aug 2017 from Missouri, USA

https://twitter.com/dennisdoddcbs/status...1349222400

(08-26-2017 12:08 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(08-25-2017 07:24 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The post was in reference to the "rotating paying of players reference". I was merely pointing out that all of the players, including those in the North, are a part of that hypocrisy and that Urban and Harbaugh have learned how to play that game in order to land key Southern and Southwestern recruits. Since all of the coaches know what each other has done it serves no ones interest to bring it up.

Freeze never had control of his program and was horribly amateurish in his attempts to play catch up. Therefore they are going to get leveled. Urban and Saban are smart enough not to start wars in which they would suffer collateral damage. Freeze was ultimately ratted out by his players who flashed cash for signing on Utube and with the NFL draft night fiasco.

I meant like this one

Dennis Dodd‏ Verified account @dennisdoddcbs

Leo Lewis' mom said LSU offered her son $650,000. Discuss.
9:22 PM - 25 Aug 2017 from Missouri, USA

https://twitter.com/dennisdoddcbs/status...1349222400

Keep coming South for recruits and see how long it takes before the NCAA is knocking on your school's door. I covered it long enough to know there aren't any clean power programs working the area.

BTW, I had already read that. Depositions and proof will have to follow. I'll be curious to see if that happens. But it looks like it could get ugly. That happens about every twenty or thirty years or so and this is also what happens when coaches are hired who have not worked the area before in any capacity.

Slive had a whip hand on this kind of stuff. I think Sankey's first tests have all been failed.

The L.S.U. / Florida game fiasco last year showed me how weak he really is in his new role. Slive would have squashed that like a bug. The Hugh Freeze stuff got started with Slive in the office, but the hard core allegations came out with last year's draft. Nobody really vetted Freeze. Malzahn at least spent some time in the conference as an OC and a little time as head coach at Arkansas State. Slive controlled crap between Alabama and Tennessee. Sankey should have been making sure that Mullen stayed out of it and clean.

He's also dropped the ball at PR. Slive was out front and greeted the public well. So far Sankey is pretty invisible.

I'd say if the guy doesn't find his moxie and do it soon it's going to get rough.
And most of the presidents in the conference won't tolerate rough for very long.

There's a guy at Oklahoma named Joe Castilogne who might fit that bill quite well.

There are other schools that are trying to keep up with Alabama, they just need more capital.

http://www.yardbarker.com/college_footba...0_24592521
“Lewis claimed to have received a $10,000 cash payment from an Ole Miss booster named “Allen” (Lewis wasn’t sure if it was his first or last name) in the parking lot of a Hampton Inn in Brookhaven on Feb. 3, 2015, one day before National Signing Day.

“’We arranged it … because I needed it. Well, I didn’t need it, I take that back. I asked for it. It was getting — it was getting close to Signing Day and so I just — I just asked for the 10 grand,’ Lewis told the NCAA,” according to the report.

(08-26-2017 12:54 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-26-2017 12:08 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(08-25-2017 07:24 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The post was in reference to the "rotating paying of players reference". I was merely pointing out that all of the players, including those in the North, are a part of that hypocrisy and that Urban and Harbaugh have learned how to play that game in order to land key Southern and Southwestern recruits. Since all of the coaches know what each other has done it serves no ones interest to bring it up.

Freeze never had control of his program and was horribly amateurish in his attempts to play catch up. Therefore they are going to get leveled. Urban and Saban are smart enough not to start wars in which they would suffer collateral damage. Freeze was ultimately ratted out by his players who flashed cash for signing on Utube and with the NFL draft night fiasco.

I meant like this one

Dennis Dodd‏ Verified account @dennisdoddcbs

Leo Lewis' mom said LSU offered her son $650,000. Discuss.
9:22 PM - 25 Aug 2017 from Missouri, USA

https://twitter.com/dennisdoddcbs/status...1349222400

Keep coming South for recruits and see how long it takes before the NCAA is knocking on your school's door. I covered it long enough to know there aren't any clean power programs working the area.

BTW, I had already read that. Depositions and proof will have to follow. I'll be curious to see if that happens. But it looks like it could get ugly. That happens about every twenty or thirty years or so and this is also what happens when coaches are hired who have not worked the area before in any capacity.

Slive had a whip hand on this kind of stuff. I think Sankey's first tests have all been failed.

The L.S.U. / Florida game fiasco last year showed me how weak he really is in his new role. Slive would have squashed that like a bug. The Hugh Freeze stuff got started with Slive in the office, but the hard core allegations came out with last year's draft. Nobody really vetted Freeze. Malzahn at least spent some time in the conference as an OC and a little time as head coach at Arkansas State. Slive controlled crap between Alabama and Tennessee. Sankey should have been making sure that Mullen stayed out of it and clean.

He's also dropped the ball at PR. Slive was out front and greeted the public well. So far Sankey is pretty invisible.

I'd say if the guy doesn't find his moxie and do it soon it's going to get rough.
And most of the presidents in the conference won't tolerate rough for very long.

There's a guy at Oklahoma named Joe Castilogne who might fit that bill quite well.

Slive was a master and set a new bar for excellence as well.

Sankey seems like a good guy and very skilled in certain areas, but I'm not sure he's ready to be the leader we need.

Castiglione would be an interesting choice. I would also be intrigued by Oliver Luck.

(08-17-2017 02:19 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  The point stands, of course, with regards to Alabama's dominance.

But you can't possibly pretend that 2013 Auburn "doesn't count". Make it to the national championship game, and lose by 3? That doesn't count? Come on ...


Would also submit that year 4 on is when you can truly hold a head coach accountable. How many current SEC coaches are past year 4, and haven't ever gotten into the BCS or CFP? Mullen is in his 9th at Miss St, went to the Orange Bowl once. Sumlin in his 6th at A&M, hasn't been to one (2012 they went to Cotton, but that was before the CFP).

Stoops, Jones, and Bielema are all in their 5th years. First two have been steadily improving ... nice new facilities at Kentucky as well, be interesting to watch them this year. Bielema hasn't made it over the hump yet.

Mullen is also at a school that is in an extremely poor area of the South. Compare Mississippi State to 'Bama, LSU, Texas A&M,Tennessee, Auburn, Georgia, or even South Carolina and you'll see why Mississippi State struggles so much. Their stadium is roughly the same size as Kentucky's, and it's very difficult to recruit four star, let alone a five star recruits & coaches to Mississippi State. The same can be said for its in-state rival, Ole Miss. Jackie Sherrill came to Mississippi State from Texas A&M, and he would be their equivalent of Vince Dooley (UGa coaching legend) or Bear Bryant. It is with this in mind that the Mississippi State AD decided to give Sylvester Croom a shot to coach the team and try to keep his job several times. However, Croom failed miserably, and reluctantly the AD had to fire him. The AD took his time to replace Croom, and found a real diamond in the rough, Dan Mullen. Mullen overhauled the team, and brought them back to being competitive, and more importantly, took them to bowls, something Croom couldn't do, and even though Mullen was from Florida, he really embraced Mississippi State, and didn't hesitate to talk bad about Ole Miss. Has Mullen had the opportunity to leave Mississippi State? Yes, probably on multiple occasions. Will he? Not likely, since he can be a Saban or a Richt at Mississippi State. Given all of their financial shortcomings, it's a wonder that Mississippi State didn't decide to be a basketball school like Kentucky.

As for Sumlin & Jones, they have no excuses, and are actually on the hot seat at their respective schools. Arkansas has had similar challenges to Mississippi State & Ole Miss, which is why Bielema might still be hanging around, but he's definitely on a short leash, considering his school is in a slightly better position than Kentucky, Mississippi State, Vandy, and Ole Miss.

Probably the best schools to challenge Saban would be LSU with Orgeron, Florida with McElwain, maybe Auburn with Malzahn, and Georgia with Kirby Smart.

The really mysterious ones would have to be South Carolina and Missouri, considering they have the resources and are not known for being basketball schools. I'm thinking their biggest problem is a lack of a winning tradition/history.

(08-20-2017 12:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 08:30 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  McElwain & Coach O seems to be the two likeliest out of the current group. LSU was playing some great football at the end of last season.

I don't understand why the SEC went with so many rookie/unproven coaches & paying them elite salaries. With their $ & reputation they should have been able to get proven coaches & not be the proving ground for the up & coming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You just hit upon a key component of Saban's success. Most of the guys who have been doing it as long as he has are getting out. Saban vs rookie = dominance. Saban vs Meyer = competitiveness.

We have some young up and comers but they really aren't that young. Fisher, Swinney and Gundy are all experienced now and have done their time as assistants and suffered through their rookie years to get where they are.

Because of the dearth of coaching talent, the lack of fundamental skills being taught in high school, and the stressful nature of recruiting many older coaches have given up the stress in favor of a healthier retirement. And thanks to the ultimate rise in salaries over the last 3 decades they could afford to leave.

The SEC and Big 10 will pay to snap up the 50 somethings with talent in the coming years. But the SEC has long suffered from the notion of putting its faith in the "coaching family tree". We suffered in the late 70's and early 80's by believing you had to hire a Bear Bryant disciple if you wanted to succeed. The only problem was they weren't Bear! There were some good Bryant disciples, but none of them achieved at the level of Bryant. Bear was a good fundamental coach, had a great eye for talent, but had that rare quality of also having a great eye for coaches. His real genius was in learning how to be an administrator of coaches while remaining a motivator of young men. And like a few other great coaches, like Rockne and Neyland, whose success spanned decades, he wasn't afraid of innovation or the total revamping of schemes he had once relied upon but which had become outdated.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a coaching seed change when the spread dies. Now to Nick's credit he too possesses the ability to manage a staff, motivate players, and thus far seems willing to adapt or change his schemes. He'll last as long as he wants to coach. But like Stoops at OU he may also just as easily decide that he has enough and finally starts realize it's time to spend and enjoy what he has earned.

I can definitely see that, and I agree.

(08-30-2017 09:59 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(08-17-2017 02:19 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  The point stands, of course, with regards to Alabama's dominance.

But you can't possibly pretend that 2013 Auburn "doesn't count". Make it to the national championship game, and lose by 3? That doesn't count? Come on ...


Would also submit that year 4 on is when you can truly hold a head coach accountable. How many current SEC coaches are past year 4, and haven't ever gotten into the BCS or CFP? Mullen is in his 9th at Miss St, went to the Orange Bowl once. Sumlin in his 6th at A&M, hasn't been to one (2012 they went to Cotton, but that was before the CFP).

Stoops, Jones, and Bielema are all in their 5th years. First two have been steadily improving ... nice new facilities at Kentucky as well, be interesting to watch them this year. Bielema hasn't made it over the hump yet.

Mullen is also at a school that is in an extremely poor area of the South. Compare Mississippi State to 'Bama, LSU, Texas A&M,Tennessee, Auburn, Georgia, or even South Carolina and you'll see why Mississippi State struggles so much. Their stadium is roughly the same size as Kentucky's, and it's very difficult to recruit four star, let alone a five star recruits & coaches to Mississippi State. The same can be said for its in-state rival, Ole Miss. Jackie Sherrill came to Mississippi State from Texas A&M, and he would be their equivalent of Vince Dooley (UGa coaching legend) or Bear Bryant. It is with this in mind that the Mississippi State AD decided to give Sylvester Croom a shot to coach the team and try to keep his job several times. However, Croom failed miserably, and reluctantly the AD had to fire him. The AD took his time to replace Croom, and found a real diamond in the rough, Dan Mullen. Mullen overhauled the team, and brought them back to being competitive, and more importantly, took them to bowls, something Croom couldn't do, and even though Mullen was from Florida, he really embraced Mississippi State, and didn't hesitate to talk bad about Ole Miss. Has Mullen had the opportunity to leave Mississippi State? Yes, probably on multiple occasions. Will he? Not likely, since he can be a Saban or a Richt at Mississippi State. Given all of their financial shortcomings, it's a wonder that Mississippi State didn't decide to be a basketball school like Kentucky.

As for Sumlin & Jones, they have no excuses, and are actually on the hot seat at their respective schools. Arkansas has had similar challenges to Mississippi State & Ole Miss, which is why Bielema might still be hanging around, but he's definitely on a short leash, considering his school is in a slightly better position than Kentucky, Mississippi State, Vandy, and Ole Miss.

Probably the best schools to challenge Saban would be LSU with Orgeron, Florida with McElwain, maybe Auburn with Malzahn, and Georgia with Kirby Smart.

The really mysterious ones would have to be South Carolina and Missouri, considering they have the resources and are not known for being basketball schools. I'm thinking their biggest problem is a lack of a winning tradition/history.

I think that is an unfair assessment of Croom.

MSU couldn't have been in worse shape when Croom took over. He was the bridge that has taken them to where they are now.

(08-30-2017 09:59 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  The really mysterious ones would have to be South Carolina and Missouri, considering they have the resources and are not known for being basketball schools.

The fact that you can say this about Missouri just shows how far they've fallen since Norm Stewart. Mizzou has never been a "football school", but in Stewart's day they were pretty good in hoops.

(08-17-2017 02:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-17-2017 02:31 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  I would offer that a few SEC coaches have been fired/retired in the last few years simply because their programs were not measuring up to Bama. Now, that's an unreasonable standard to ask a coach to meet. Between the Bryant and Saban eras, even Bama was unable to meet its own standards most years. So some of these guys should really still be in their old jobs and that would bump these numbers up.

I used to agree with the idea that it was unfair to hold these guys to impossible standards. But if you're paying a guy $5 million/year plus another $3 million/year for his staff, you're paying for high expectations.

And I don't know about keeping coaches around at that salary level if they're no longer winning big. Sure, LSU could have kept Miles, and Georgia could have kept Richt, but it's been 10 years since those guys last won a BCS game. (Same season, 2007.)

So back to the question: Which one of the current SEC head coaches other than Saban, if any, is going to be the first guy who wins the SEC and a CFP game?

It might be someone who isn't in the SEC yet, but if I have to pick one of the current head coaches, I'll go with McElwain at Florida.

Not to say that Saban isn't legendary, because he is, but Richt definitely had multiple chances to keep his job, with a somewhat new AD that has become well known for wanting to put his stamp on the UGa program, and not tolerate coaches hired by a previous AD. Richt's biggest mistake was not pulling the plug on Bobo's replacement a long time ago. You saw how long Schottenheimer lasted once Smart was hired: gone. And it took forever for him to pull the plug on a struggling defensive coordinator he had too, not Jeremy Pruitt, one of Richt's few intelligent hires, but regrettably, not a favorite of the AD. Not having an proper indoor training facility doomed Richt also, which is why he started pushing for one at Miami as soon as he got hired.

Not sure what did Les Miles in.

(08-30-2017 10:42 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(08-17-2017 02:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-17-2017 02:31 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  I would offer that a few SEC coaches have been fired/retired in the last few years simply because their programs were not measuring up to Bama. Now, that's an unreasonable standard to ask a coach to meet. Between the Bryant and Saban eras, even Bama was unable to meet its own standards most years. So some of these guys should really still be in their old jobs and that would bump these numbers up.

I used to agree with the idea that it was unfair to hold these guys to impossible standards. But if you're paying a guy $5 million/year plus another $3 million/year for his staff, you're paying for high expectations.

And I don't know about keeping coaches around at that salary level if they're no longer winning big. Sure, LSU could have kept Miles, and Georgia could have kept Richt, but it's been 10 years since those guys last won a BCS game. (Same season, 2007.)

So back to the question: Which one of the current SEC head coaches other than Saban, if any, is going to be the first guy who wins the SEC and a CFP game?

It might be someone who isn't in the SEC yet, but if I have to pick one of the current head coaches, I'll go with McElwain at Florida.

Not to say that Saban isn't legendary, because he is, but Richt definitely had multiple chances to keep his job, with a somewhat new AD that has become well known for wanting to put his stamp on the UGa program, and not tolerate coaches hired by a previous AD. Richt's biggest mistake was not pulling the plug on Bobo's replacement a long time ago. You saw how long Schottenheimer lasted once Smart was hired: gone. And it took forever for him to pull the plug on a struggling defensive coordinator he had too, not Jeremy Pruitt, one of Richt's few intelligent hires, but regrettably, not a favorite of the AD. Not having an proper indoor training facility doomed Richt also, which is why he started pushing for one at Miami as soon as he got hired.

Not sure what did Les Miles in.

I don't mean to be glib but it was all downhill from there. It was simply a countdown until the last of the goodwill from his NC season wore off.