(08-16-2017 01:45 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 01:24 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 12:12 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 11:24 AM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 10:53 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  I would not consider White and Stockstill as top 10 QBs in the entire NCAA. Maybe White edges in there, but not Stockstill. They are good, but remember, they play in CUSA.

My top 10 would probably be:

Darnold
Josh Allen
Jackson
Rosen
Stidham
Rudolph
Falk
Francois
Mayfield
Browning

They would probably be in the group with:

Fitzgerald
Ferguson
Solomon
Flowers
Kyle Allen

Whether either are in the top 10 or not is debatable. Consider the following Paul Rosen example since you listed him. The year that Brent put up the huge numbers as a freshman two years ago, Rosen was almost unanimously the the QB that was named freshman All-America. I actually took the time to compare their two seasons.

Brent's numbers were much better than Rosen's across every statistical category. But then I went and looked at who they played. You can say all day long that well because one kid is at a P5 he's automatically better because he had to play better competition. The reality that year was that Pac 12 defenses were terrible. There wasn't a single Pac 12 defense in the top 30 in total defense and the best defense in the league UCLA didn't even face that year. BYU was the only legitimate good defense that Rosen had to go up against and that was a non-conference game against a non P5. Rosen faced four defenses ranked 109 or worse. He faced six that were 85 or worse and faced eight that 64 or worse in total defense.

Further, I compared the rankings to defenses Rosen faced against the defenses Stockstill faced. On average, Stockstill faced defenses that were ranked something like 20 to 25 points better (can't recall the actual numbers). So, Stockstill put up bigger numbers and did so against defenses that were statistically much better than what Rosen faced. Yet...we know how the story ends. Both got hurt last year and I didn't take the time to compare defenses, but Brent still put up better numbers last year too.

This is the fallacy of college football. There are a few elite programs (less than 10) that really do have much better players at every position. All the others just ride the coattails and get automatic elevation because of conference they reside in. When non power programs recruit well (just barely under the radar), develop players the right way, and build stability within the program, they can produce players and teams that are legitimately as good as most P5 programs. Of course the rub here is that it is much harder to do at a G5 than a P5 going up against all the inherent advantages those schools have, but it doesn't mean that its a given.

What did you base your defensive ratings on? If it was F+/-. I would give credit to that analysis. If it is simply yards given up, I would not. I would be surprised if Stockstill faced anywhere close to the level of defense as Rosen; even with Pac 12 defenses being bad. CUSA defensive are pathetic.

Here you go using F +/-

Cumulatively speaking the defenses Rosen faced averaged 67.25. The defenses Stockstill faced averaged 66.4

Top 25 Defenses Faced
Rosen = 1
Stockstill = 3

Top 50 Defenses Faced
Rosen = 4
Stockstill = 4

Number of 100+ Defenses Faced
Stockstill = 3
Rosen = 3*

Best defense faced:
Rosen (#18)
Stockstill (#1)

*Includes the worst defense faced which I excluded from the average listed at the top. I removed the worst defense Rosen had to face from his average in an effort to be fair, because Stockstill got to play a I-AA game. If I had included it, Rosen's average defense faced would have been 70.8. Of note, Stockstill played against three defenses that were ranked better than any defense that Rosen faced.

Below are the defensive rankings using F +/-

Rosen/Stockstill
77/--
114*/1
31/92
81/15
112/12
43/60
84/102
89/80
103/42
74/76
18/120
41/104
54/93

Fair enough. That is good research. Not that I think Stockstill is better than Rosen, but it at least provides a reasonable argument.

You also have a long history of underrating Stock...

(08-16-2017 01:53 PM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 01:45 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 01:24 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 12:12 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 11:24 AM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Whether either are in the top 10 or not is debatable. Consider the following Paul Rosen example since you listed him. The year that Brent put up the huge numbers as a freshman two years ago, Rosen was almost unanimously the the QB that was named freshman All-America. I actually took the time to compare their two seasons.

Brent's numbers were much better than Rosen's across every statistical category. But then I went and looked at who they played. You can say all day long that well because one kid is at a P5 he's automatically better because he had to play better competition. The reality that year was that Pac 12 defenses were terrible. There wasn't a single Pac 12 defense in the top 30 in total defense and the best defense in the league UCLA didn't even face that year. BYU was the only legitimate good defense that Rosen had to go up against and that was a non-conference game against a non P5. Rosen faced four defenses ranked 109 or worse. He faced six that were 85 or worse and faced eight that 64 or worse in total defense.

Further, I compared the rankings to defenses Rosen faced against the defenses Stockstill faced. On average, Stockstill faced defenses that were ranked something like 20 to 25 points better (can't recall the actual numbers). So, Stockstill put up bigger numbers and did so against defenses that were statistically much better than what Rosen faced. Yet...we know how the story ends. Both got hurt last year and I didn't take the time to compare defenses, but Brent still put up better numbers last year too.

This is the fallacy of college football. There are a few elite programs (less than 10) that really do have much better players at every position. All the others just ride the coattails and get automatic elevation because of conference they reside in. When non power programs recruit well (just barely under the radar), develop players the right way, and build stability within the program, they can produce players and teams that are legitimately as good as most P5 programs. Of course the rub here is that it is much harder to do at a G5 than a P5 going up against all the inherent advantages those schools have, but it doesn't mean that its a given.

What did you base your defensive ratings on? If it was F+/-. I would give credit to that analysis. If it is simply yards given up, I would not. I would be surprised if Stockstill faced anywhere close to the level of defense as Rosen; even with Pac 12 defenses being bad. CUSA defensive are pathetic.

Here you go using F +/-

Cumulatively speaking the defenses Rosen faced averaged 67.25. The defenses Stockstill faced averaged 66.4

Top 25 Defenses Faced
Rosen = 1
Stockstill = 3

Top 50 Defenses Faced
Rosen = 4
Stockstill = 4

Number of 100+ Defenses Faced
Stockstill = 3
Rosen = 3*

Best defense faced:
Rosen (#18)
Stockstill (#1)

*Includes the worst defense faced which I excluded from the average listed at the top. I removed the worst defense Rosen had to face from his average in an effort to be fair, because Stockstill got to play a I-AA game. If I had included it, Rosen's average defense faced would have been 70.8. Of note, Stockstill played against three defenses that were ranked better than any defense that Rosen faced.

Below are the defensive rankings using F +/-

Rosen/Stockstill
77/--
114*/1
31/92
81/15
112/12
43/60
84/102
89/80
103/42
74/76
18/120
41/104
54/93

Fair enough. That is good research. Not that I think Stockstill is better than Rosen, but it at least provides a reasonable argument.

You also have a long history of underrating Stock...

FWIW, I don't think he's a bad QB. He's a pretty good QB, probably borderline top 15-20, IMO. He just doesn't have the numbers to be put up in the elite class of QBs, IMO. And White still smoked his numbers last year :)

Why do you not think he is better? Hype? Potential draft status? None of those equate to winning college football games or who is better at leading their team right now.

If you really want to dissect further on who was more deserving of All-American honors in 2015 here's the comparison of the top 50 defenses they faced.

Rosen vs #18
15-of-30, 220 yds, 1 TD, 0 INT (QBR: 68.4)

Stockstill vs. #1
22-of-42, 174 yds, 0 TD, 1 INT (QBR: 48.4) FYI: better than six SEC QB's did against Bama that year

-------------------------
Rosen vs #31
11-of-23, 106 yds, 1 TD, 3 INT's (QBR: 5.6)

Stockstill vs #12
32-of-51, 286 yds, 1 TD, 0 INT (QBR: 39.7)

-------------------------
Rosen vs. #41
19-of-37, 227 yds, 1 TD, 2 INTs (QBR: 55.4)

Stockstill vs. #15
29-of-42, 330 yds, 3 TDs, 0 INT (QBR: 63.9)

-------------------------
Rosen vs. #43
22-of-42, 326 yds, 3 TDs 2 INTs (QBR: 45.6)

Stockstill vs. #42
21-of-34, 354 yds, 3 TDs, O INTs (QBR: 77.3)

Totals vs. Top 50 Defenses
Stockstill: 104-of-169 (62%) 1,144 yds, 7 TD's, 1 INT (avg D=17.5)
Rosen: 67-of-132 (51%) 879 yards, 6 TD's, 7 INTs (avg D=33.5)

But yeah Rosen deserved to be the All-American that year. Clearly the better QB.

(08-16-2017 01:56 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 01:53 PM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 01:45 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 01:24 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 12:12 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  What did you base your defensive ratings on? If it was F+/-. I would give credit to that analysis. If it is simply yards given up, I would not. I would be surprised if Stockstill faced anywhere close to the level of defense as Rosen; even with Pac 12 defenses being bad. CUSA defensive are pathetic.

Here you go using F +/-

Cumulatively speaking the defenses Rosen faced averaged 67.25. The defenses Stockstill faced averaged 66.4

Top 25 Defenses Faced
Rosen = 1
Stockstill = 3

Top 50 Defenses Faced
Rosen = 4
Stockstill = 4

Number of 100+ Defenses Faced
Stockstill = 3
Rosen = 3*

Best defense faced:
Rosen (#18)
Stockstill (#1)

*Includes the worst defense faced which I excluded from the average listed at the top. I removed the worst defense Rosen had to face from his average in an effort to be fair, because Stockstill got to play a I-AA game. If I had included it, Rosen's average defense faced would have been 70.8. Of note, Stockstill played against three defenses that were ranked better than any defense that Rosen faced.

Below are the defensive rankings using F +/-

Rosen/Stockstill
77/--
114*/1
31/92
81/15
112/12
43/60
84/102
89/80
103/42
74/76
18/120
41/104
54/93

Fair enough. That is good research. Not that I think Stockstill is better than Rosen, but it at least provides a reasonable argument.

You also have a long history of underrating Stock...

FWIW, I don't think he's a bad QB. He's a pretty good QB, probably borderline top 15-20, IMO. He just doesn't have the numbers to be put up in the elite class of QBs, IMO. And White still smoked his numbers last year :)

He was a freaking sophomore - that missed a quarter of the season.

But yet you put Rosen in there whose numbers pale in comparison to Stockstills.

White CUSA champion
Stockstill 3rd place in the east ...5th overall in CUSA
(NATIONAL RANK..top 20)

Pass Completions
White 280 (11TH)
Stockstill 262 (20TH)

Pass Attempts
White 416
Stockstill 414

Pass Completion Percentage
White 67.3 (8TH)
Stockstill 63.3

Passing Yards
White 4360 (5TH)
Stockstill 3233

Passing Yards Per Attempt
White 10.5 (2ND)
Stockstill 7.8

Adjusted Passing Yards Per Attempt
White 11.5 (2ND)
Stockstill 8.5

Passing Touchdowns
White 37 (8TH)
Stockstill 31 (12TH)

Passing Interceptions
7
7

Passing Efficiency Rating
White 181.4 (3RD)
Stockstill 150.2

(08-16-2017 02:17 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  Pass Completions
White 280
Stockstill 262

Pass Attempts
White 416
Stockstill 414

Pass Completion Percentage
White 67.3
Stockstill 63.3

Passing Yards
White 4360
Stockstill 3233

Passing Yards Per Attempt
White 10.5
Stockstill 7.8

Adjusted Passing Yards Per Attempt
White 11.5
Stockstill 8.5

Passing Touchdowns
White 37
Stockstill 31

Passing Interceptions
7
7

Passing Efficiency Rating
White 181.4
Stockstill 150.2

Talk about there you go again. Nobody was talking about comparing these two. But hey "look at me."

(08-16-2017 02:19 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 02:17 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  (NATIONAL RANK..top 20)
Pass Completions
White 280 (11TH)
Stockstill 262 (20TH)

Pass Attempts
White 416
Stockstill 414

Pass Completion Percentage
White 67.3 (8TH)
Stockstill 63.3

Passing Yards
White 4360 (5TH)
Stockstill 3233

Passing Yards Per Attempt
White 10.5 (2ND)
Stockstill 7.8

Adjusted Passing Yards Per Attempt
White 11.5 (2ND)
Stockstill 8.5

Passing Touchdowns
White 37 (8TH)
Stockstill 31 (12TH)

Passing Interceptions
7
7

Passing Efficiency Rating
White 181.4 (3RD)
Stockstill 150.2

Talk about there you go again. Nobody was talking about comparing these two. But hey "look at me."

I believe Mike White and Stockstill's name is on the title of this topic. You just can't stand to see anything Western related...

without commenting on it

You were the one doing the "look at me" with Stockstill....I listed both players season stats since that's what this topic is about. You just tried to turn it into a Stockstill topic.

Anything Western ***** with your brain LOL

Bull ****. You posted that for one reason to try to one up in spite of the fact that Brent missed games and played most of the year with a torn rotator. You're a one upper plain and simple. I personally didn't say anything about White or your community college.

I can't wait for Brent to eclipse White's Jr. Numbers. And you are really going to choke on a bunch of crow if Brent's Jr. year is better than Whites sr year. Cheers.

(08-16-2017 02:07 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 01:56 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 01:53 PM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 01:45 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 01:24 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Here you go using F +/-

Cumulatively speaking the defenses Rosen faced averaged 67.25. The defenses Stockstill faced averaged 66.4

Top 25 Defenses Faced
Rosen = 1
Stockstill = 3

Top 50 Defenses Faced
Rosen = 4
Stockstill = 4

Number of 100+ Defenses Faced
Stockstill = 3
Rosen = 3*

Best defense faced:
Rosen (#18)
Stockstill (#1)

*Includes the worst defense faced which I excluded from the average listed at the top. I removed the worst defense Rosen had to face from his average in an effort to be fair, because Stockstill got to play a I-AA game. If I had included it, Rosen's average defense faced would have been 70.8. Of note, Stockstill played against three defenses that were ranked better than any defense that Rosen faced.

Below are the defensive rankings using F +/-

Rosen/Stockstill
77/--
114*/1
31/92
81/15
112/12
43/60
84/102
89/80
103/42
74/76
18/120
41/104
54/93

Fair enough. That is good research. Not that I think Stockstill is better than Rosen, but it at least provides a reasonable argument.

You also have a long history of underrating Stock...

FWIW, I don't think he's a bad QB. He's a pretty good QB, probably borderline top 15-20, IMO. He just doesn't have the numbers to be put up in the elite class of QBs, IMO. And White still smoked his numbers last year :)

He was a freaking sophomore - that missed a quarter of the season.

But yet you put Rosen in there whose numbers pale in comparison to Stockstills.

Again, we aren't talking about total numbers so any discussion on missing time is pointless.

Huh?

(08-16-2017 04:00 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Huh?

Why would missing games matter if you aren't using total yards or total touchdowns as a metric?

(08-16-2017 04:16 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 04:00 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Huh?

Why would missing games matter if you aren't using total yards or total touchdowns as a metric?

You stated he doesn't belong in the elite class because of his numbers. Yet you included at least one QB who you say does belong in spite of that QB having lesser numbers than Stockstill. I've also demonstrated how Stockstill did that against competition that was equally as good or better than the QB you put in the elite class.

So I'm just having a hard time following your logic.

The intent of this thread was to show how far off base it is to exclude either from the best QB's in the country no matter what adjective you use to subjectively identify the best college QB's for 2017. Here is another example that includes both guys and is far more rationale.
.
This may have already been posted but here it is anyway.
.
Sports on Earth

1 out of 10 right is about normal for you, kruciff...

I hope that we can all agree on one thing.....
Both Stockstill and White are better than the national media (the PR minions for the P5) give them credit for.
If we spend too much effort lamenting the biased ratings of ill-informed hacks, that most likely have never watched either QB play, then we are setting ourselves up for unneeded stress.
My advice is this....
Continue to enjoy the heck out of watching these two great QBs play.

(08-16-2017 06:51 PM)dahbeed Wrote:  

(08-18-2017 07:19 AM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  

(08-16-2017 06:51 PM)dahbeed Wrote:  

I didn't direct that at any single person. It sat for a day and half with no response.

I figured that a thread with a pissing contest between you and Gilesfan it could be left open for interpretation. Not gonna lie, I sit there as Michael Jackson eating popcorn when I'm not in the middle of one of these.

Nice play with the Ron Burgundy.

P.S. when I first saw Broadcast News and Holly Hunter said that line I was floored by it. Cracked me up. Plus I always had a thing for her and her Georgia cracker accent. I still liked her in 'Saving Grace' because I like promiscuous women with drinking problems. Unrelated but that statement made me think of a good friend of mine who is a bigwig insurance guy here in BG. He said when he was at Western and hitting the clubs he'd zero in on the cute girls that smoked. Indicated reckless behaviour. Better shot at you know what. Dude had no idea he was destined for actuarial tables yet.

(08-18-2017 10:24 AM)dahbeed Wrote:  I still liked her in 'Saving Grace' because I like promiscuous women with drinking problems.

That should be your sig!

BTW, your insurance friend was just playing numbers and was right. No surprise where he ended up. In fact...

Teens with friends who smoke, drink, or use drugs are more often exposed to substance use and to the idea that such use is acceptable. At the same time, adolescents who drink or smoke may seek out friends with similar attitudes and behaviors (Grube and Morgan 1990). Association with deviant peers also encourages the transition from virginity to nonvirginity, particularly among females
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2690117/