(07-20-2017 10:55 AM)ArQ Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 09:29 PM)MKPitt Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 08:00 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  No it doesn't... hopefully we can go to three pods of five teams sometime in future...gotta get the legislation passed and grab a 15th full member.

Yep, and it would be so easy with ND (I know they're never joining). You just need to protect NC State-UNC and I think almost everyone would be happy.

Pitt
Syracuse
ND
BC
Louisville

UVA
VT
Duke
UNC
WF

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
NC State

Fix the problem:

Pitt
Syracuse
ND
BC
VT

UVA
Duke
UNC
WF
NC State

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
Louisville

FSU Pod too top heavy in FB and UVA Pod too weak in FB

(07-20-2017 11:21 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 10:55 AM)ArQ Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 09:29 PM)MKPitt Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 08:00 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  No it doesn't... hopefully we can go to three pods of five teams sometime in future...gotta get the legislation passed and grab a 15th full member.

Yep, and it would be so easy with ND (I know they're never joining). You just need to protect NC State-UNC and I think almost everyone would be happy.

Pitt
Syracuse
ND
BC
Louisville

UVA
VT
Duke
UNC
WF

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
NC State

Fix the problem:

Pitt
Syracuse
ND
BC
VT

UVA
Duke
UNC
WF
NC State

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
Louisville

FSU Pod too top heavy in FB and UVA Pod too weak in FB

+1. FSU/Miami/Clemson/GT/Louisville is the "pod of death"

(07-20-2017 12:45 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 11:21 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 10:55 AM)ArQ Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 09:29 PM)MKPitt Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 08:00 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  No it doesn't... hopefully we can go to three pods of five teams sometime in future...gotta get the legislation passed and grab a 15th full member.

Yep, and it would be so easy with ND (I know they're never joining). You just need to protect NC State-UNC and I think almost everyone would be happy.

Pitt
Syracuse
ND
BC
Louisville

UVA
VT
Duke
UNC
WF

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
NC State

Fix the problem:

Pitt
Syracuse
ND
BC
VT

UVA
Duke
UNC
WF
NC State

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
Louisville

FSU Pod too top heavy in FB and UVA Pod too weak in FB

+1. FSU/Miami/Clemson/GT/Louisville is the "pod of death"

Agree with both of you. If they go divisional route:

ND (or sub WVU, which is more likely than the Irish)
UL
SU
Pitt
BC

VT
UVA
UNC
Duke
NC State

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
Wake

Or simply do away with divisions entirely, have 2 permanent conference games and cycle through the other 12 teams - 6 home and away for two years and then the other 6 home and away for two years.

Cheers,
Neil

(07-20-2017 01:56 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 12:45 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 11:21 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 10:55 AM)ArQ Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 09:29 PM)MKPitt Wrote:  Yep, and it would be so easy with ND (I know they're never joining). You just need to protect NC State-UNC and I think almost everyone would be happy.

Pitt
Syracuse
ND
BC
Louisville

UVA
VT
Duke
UNC
WF

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
NC State

Fix the problem:

Pitt
Syracuse
ND
BC
VT

UVA
Duke
UNC
WF
NC State

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
Louisville

FSU Pod too top heavy in FB and UVA Pod too weak in FB

+1. FSU/Miami/Clemson/GT/Louisville is the "pod of death"

Agree with both of you. If they go divisional route:

ND (or sub WVU, which is more likely than the Irish)
UL
SU
Pitt
BC

VT
UVA
UNC
Duke
NC State

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
Wake

Or simply do away with divisions entirely, have 2 permanent conference games and cycle through the other 12 teams - 6 home and away for two years and then the other 6 home and away for two years.

Cheers,
Neil

WINNER, WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER!

(07-20-2017 11:21 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 10:55 AM)ArQ Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 09:29 PM)MKPitt Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 08:00 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  No it doesn't... hopefully we can go to three pods of five teams sometime in future...gotta get the legislation passed and grab a 15th full member.

Yep, and it would be so easy with ND (I know they're never joining). You just need to protect NC State-UNC and I think almost everyone would be happy.

Pitt
Syracuse
ND
BC
Louisville

UVA
VT
Duke
UNC
WF

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
NC State

Fix the problem:

Pitt
Syracuse
ND
BC
VT

UVA
Duke
UNC
WF
NC State

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
Louisville

FSU Pod too top heavy in FB and UVA Pod too weak in FB

But only two pod winners go to the championship game. Based on the configuration, it will be almost 98% for southern pod, 61% for northern pod and 41% for central pod.

(07-20-2017 03:57 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 01:56 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 12:45 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 11:21 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 10:55 AM)ArQ Wrote:  Fix the problem:

Pitt
Syracuse
ND
BC
VT

UVA
Duke
UNC
WF
NC State

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
Louisville

FSU Pod too top heavy in FB and UVA Pod too weak in FB

+1. FSU/Miami/Clemson/GT/Louisville is the "pod of death"

Agree with both of you. If they go divisional route:

ND (or sub WVU, which is more likely than the Irish)
UL
SU
Pitt
BC

VT
UVA
UNC
Duke
NC State

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
Wake

Or simply do away with divisions entirely, have 2 permanent conference games and cycle through the other 12 teams - 6 home and away for two years and then the other 6 home and away for two years.

Cheers,
Neil

WINNER, WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER!

Clemson and Florida State have made it clear that they don't want the weak teams in their schedule to drag down computer ratings. NC State is acceptable while Wake Forest or maybe Duke is a No-No.

(07-20-2017 04:10 PM)ArQ Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 03:57 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 01:56 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 12:45 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(07-20-2017 11:21 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  FSU Pod too top heavy in FB and UVA Pod too weak in FB

+1. FSU/Miami/Clemson/GT/Louisville is the "pod of death"

Agree with both of you. If they go divisional route:

ND (or sub WVU, which is more likely than the Irish)
UL
SU
Pitt
BC

VT
UVA
UNC
Duke
NC State

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
Wake

Or simply do away with divisions entirely, have 2 permanent conference games and cycle through the other 12 teams - 6 home and away for two years and then the other 6 home and away for two years.

Cheers,
Neil

WINNER, WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER!

Clemson and Florida State have made it clear that they don't want the weak teams in their schedule to drag down computer ratings. NC State is acceptable while Wake Forest or maybe Duke is a No-No.

I think their objection has been three teams locked into their schedules that they perceive as dragging down their computer rankings annually - BC, SU, and Wake (listed alpha). I am not sure there is a way to consistently develop a schedule where at least two of four (Duke added to the above three) won't be on the schedule.

Cheers,
Neil

(07-18-2017 11:07 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Insane...all 5 teams could end up in the Top 25, I wrote an article for NunesMagician...do you agree or disagree with my takes?

https://www.nunesmagician.com/2017/7/18/...y-tailgate

IMO the right way for Syracuse to rebuild their football program is to have a winning season. You guys should schedule teams like Rutgers, Army, UConn and other lower level G5 teams. Even USF, Navy, ECU are too much for SU to handle right now. Also you need to renovate Carrier Dome for real. That is only way to attract good players.

(07-19-2017 09:29 PM)MKPitt Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 08:00 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  No it doesn't... hopefully we can go to three pods of five teams sometime in future...gotta get the legislation passed and grab a 15th full member.

Yep, and it would be so easy with ND (I know they're never joining). You just need to protect NC State-UNC and I think almost everyone would be happy.

Pitt
Syracuse
ND
BC
Louisville

UVA
VT
Duke
UNC
WF

FSU
Miami
Clemson
GT
NC State

You'd have to protect the annual GT/Duke game too.

The conference semi final games are the real key to any progress as that allows conferences to split into 4 or just 3 divisions. The attraction of 3 is that you can have a wild card giving more teams something to play for at the end of the year.

The following is the best I can do for 15 ACC schools with ND being the 15th. WVa is not going to be the 15th.

North, Central or Appalachian, East

Miami Clemson FSU
ND GT Louis
Pitt VT UVa
Duke NC State UNC
BC WF Syracuse

Since I can't get my columns to stay formatted:

North - Miami, ND, Pitt, Duke, BC
Central or Appalachian - Clemson, GT, VT, NC State, WF
East - FSU, Louisville, UVa, UNC, Syracuse

Everyone in the the three divisions plays those four, plus a rival in the other two divisions.

Bold is a traditional game. Red is a new that is desired by the school, not necessarily both schools. Other than knowing BC desires ND and Miami, I can't really speak to anything else BC. I know less of what Syracuse desires but most of what they have ever stated centered around showing up in more metro areas. Louisville wants ND.

Clemson always has FSU, Miami, GT, VT, NC State, and WF.
FSU always has CU, Miami, Louis, UVa, UNC, and Syracuse.
ND always has GT, Louisivlle, Pitt, Miami, BC, and Duke
Miami always has Clemson, FSU, ND, Pitt, BC, and Duke
GT always has ND, Louis, Clemson, VT, NC State, and WF
UNC always has Duke, NC State, FSU, UVa, Louis, and Syracuse.
NC State always has UNC, Duke, WF, Clemson, GT, and VT.
Syracuse always has BC, WF, [b][b]FSU,[/b][/b] UNC, Louisville, and UVa
BC always has Syracuse, WF, Pitt, Duke, ND, and Miami
VT always has UVa, Pitt, Clemson, GT, NC State, and WF
WF always has BC, Syracuse, NC State, VT, GT, and CU
Louis always has ND, GT, FSU, UNC, UVa, and Syracuse
Pitt always has VT, UVa, ND, Miami, BC, and Duke
Duke always has UNC, NCSU, BC, Pitt, ND, and Miami
UVa always has VT, Pitt, UNC, FSU, Louis, and Syracuse

This attempts to take into account Clemson and FSU not wanting to play many games north of Virginia and giving them some new blood to encourage travel. This is the best I can do for ND knowing that far flung travel appeals to them as do metros - this gives them Miami, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, and Boston.

GT is split from Duke and UNC and trade NC State and WF. If you flip Wake and Duke, you put Duke back with GT, but they lost UNC.

If this were the case in a 8 game schedule, UNC and Duke would continue as OOC.

This makes ND "not special". Something they do not want, and something I am not sure helps the ACC. With four OOC games, ND can accommodate Stanford/USC, as well as Navy and a B10/SEC game.

This only really works with a four team conference playoff. Assume for sake of argument that in the current world, Clemson and FSU would likely be their division winners and host the other division winner and the wild card. That's Clemson and FSU hosting Notre Dame, Miami, GT, VT, or perhaps Louisville for the foreseeable future. The winners meet in Charlotte. You should not have a dud, because if an upstart makes it to the final, they are comming off an upset - creating drama.

(07-20-2017 09:17 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  The conference semi final games are the real key to any progress as that allows conferences to split into 4 or just 3 divisions. The attraction of 3 is that you can have a wild card giving more teams something to play for at the end of the year.

The following is the best I can do for 15 ACC schools with ND being the 15th. WVa is not going to be the 15th.

North, Central or Appalachian, East

Miami Clemson FSU
ND GT Louis
Pitt VT UVa
Duke NC State UNC
BC WF Syracuse

Everyone in the the three divisions plays those four, plus a rival in the other two divisions.

Bold is a traditional game. Red is a new that is desired by the school, not necessarily both schools. Other than knowing BC desires ND and Miami, I can't really speak to anything else BC. I know less of what Syracuse desires but most of what they have ever stated centered around showing up in more metro areas. Louisville wants ND.

Clemson always has FSU, Miami, GT, VT, NC State, and WF.
FSU always has CU, Miami, Louis, UVa, UNC, and Syracuse.
ND always has GT, Louisivlle, Pitt, Miami, BC, and Duke
Miami always has Clemson, FSU, ND, Pitt, BC, and Duke
GT always has ND, Louis, Clemson, VT, NC State, and WF
UNC always has Duke, NC State, FSU, UVa, Louis, and Syracuse.
NC State always has UNC, Duke, WF, Clemson, GT, and VT.
Syracuse always has BC, WF, Clemson, GT, VT, and NC State
BC always has Syracuse, WF, Pitt, Duke, ND, and Miami
VT always has UVa, Pitt, Clemson, GT, NC State, and WF
WF always has BC, Syracuse, NC State, VT, GT, and CU
Louis always has ND, GT, FSU, UNC, UVa, and Syracuse
Pitt always has VT, UVa, ND, Miami, BC, and Duke
Duke always has UNC, NCSU, BC, Pitt, ND, and Miami
UVa always has VT, Pitt, UNC, FSU, Louis, and Syracuse

This attempts to take into account Clemson and FSU not wanting to play many games north of Virginia and giving them some new blood to encourage travel. This is the best I can do for ND knowing that far flung travel appeals to them as do metros - this gives them Miami, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, and Boston.

GT is split from Duke and UNC and trade NC State and WF. If you flip Wake and Duke, you put Duke back with GT, but they lost UNC.

If this were the case in a 8 game schedule, UNC and Duke would continue as OOC.

This makes ND "not special". Something they do not want, and something I am not sure helps the ACC. With four OOC games, ND can accommodate Stanford/USC, as well as Navy and a B10/SEC game.

This only really works with a four team conference playoff. Assume for sake of argument that in the current world, Clemson and FSU would likely be their division winners and host the other division winner and the wild card. That's Clemson and FSU hosting Notre Dame, Miami, GT, VT, or perhaps Louisville for the foreseeable future. The winners meet in Charlotte. You should not have a dud, because if an upstart makes it to the final, they are comming off an upset - creating drama.

That's awful.

I bet that is awful for Syracuse, especially since I transposed your division.

You would always have BC, WF, FSU, Louisivlle, UNC, and UVa

(07-21-2017 09:14 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  I bet that is awful for Syracuse, especially since I transposed your division.

You would always have BC, WF, FSU, Louisivlle, UNC, and UVa

...I could live with that. Frankly better than what we have now. I'd gladly trade Clemson and NCSt for UNC and UVA

(07-21-2017 11:59 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(07-21-2017 09:14 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  I bet that is awful for Syracuse, especially since I transposed your division.

You would always have BC, WF, FSU, Louisivlle, UNC, and UVa

...I could live with that. Frankly better than what we have now. I'd gladly trade Clemson and NCSt for UNC and UVA

This issue is having BC and 5 yearly games that are random. I get that SU and Pitt don't hate each other, but the two schools didn't play each other over 70x by random chance. Losing that game is an issue.

The same goes for having zero other games of interest on the list. Any one of Miami, VT, or ND would work. It will be 20-30+ years before games against any of those schools that you listed matter more than the records of the teams involved.

Edit: To clarify, I too would take UVA + UNC over Clemson and Wake. I just wouldn't lose Pitt to do it.

(07-20-2017 09:17 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  The conference semi final games are the real key to any progress as that allows conferences to split into 4 or just 3 divisions. The attraction of 3 is that you can have a wild card giving more teams something to play for at the end of the year.

The following is the best I can do for 15 ACC schools with ND being the 15th. WVa is not going to be the 15th.

North, Central or Appalachian, East

Miami Clemson FSU
ND GT Louis
Pitt VT UVa
Duke NC State UNC
BC WF Syracuse

Since I can't get my columns to stay formatted:

North - Miami, ND, Pitt, Duke, BC
Central or Appalachian - Clemson, GT, VT, NC State, WF
East - FSU, Louisville, UVa, UNC, Syracuse

Everyone in the the three divisions plays those four, plus a rival in the other two divisions.

Bold is a traditional game. Red is a new that is desired by the school, not necessarily both schools. Other than knowing BC desires ND and Miami, I can't really speak to anything else BC. I know less of what Syracuse desires but most of what they have ever stated centered around showing up in more metro areas. Louisville wants ND.

Clemson always has FSU, Miami, GT, VT, NC State, and WF.
FSU always has CU, Miami, Louis, UVa, UNC, and Syracuse.
ND always has GT, Louisivlle, Pitt, Miami, BC, and Duke
Miami always has Clemson, FSU, ND, Pitt, BC, and Duke
GT always has ND, Louis, Clemson, VT, NC State, and WF
UNC always has Duke, NC State, FSU, UVa, Louis, and Syracuse.
NC State always has UNC, Duke, WF, Clemson, GT, and VT.
Syracuse always has BC, WF, [b][b]FSU,[/b][/b] UNC, Louisville, and UVa
BC always has Syracuse, WF, Pitt, Duke, ND, and Miami
VT always has UVa, Pitt, Clemson, GT, NC State, and WF
WF always has BC, Syracuse, NC State, VT, GT, and CU
Louis always has ND, GT, FSU, UNC, UVa, and Syracuse
Pitt always has VT, UVa, ND, Miami, BC, and Duke
Duke always has UNC, NCSU, BC, Pitt, ND, and Miami
UVa always has VT, Pitt, UNC, FSU, Louis, and Syracuse

This attempts to take into account Clemson and FSU not wanting to play many games north of Virginia and giving them some new blood to encourage travel. This is the best I can do for ND knowing that far flung travel appeals to them as do metros - this gives them Miami, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, and Boston.

GT is split from Duke and UNC and trade NC State and WF. If you flip Wake and Duke, you put Duke back with GT, but they lost UNC.

If this were the case in a 8 game schedule, UNC and Duke would continue as OOC.

This makes ND "not special". Something they do not want, and something I am not sure helps the ACC. With four OOC games, ND can accommodate Stanford/USC, as well as Navy and a B10/SEC game.

This only really works with a four team conference playoff. Assume for sake of argument that in the current world, Clemson and FSU would likely be their division winners and host the other division winner and the wild card. That's Clemson and FSU hosting Notre Dame, Miami, GT, VT, or perhaps Louisville for the foreseeable future. The winners meet in Charlotte. You should not have a dud, because if an upstart makes it to the final, they are comming off an upset - creating drama.

So Duke loses both Tech and Wake as annual football opponents? I think the endgame for football is to expand to 18, with a pre-1993 division and a post-1993 division. The ACC office could schedule eight division games, four home and four away. They could encourage and facilitate cross-division games (UVA-VT, FSU-Miami would obviously continue), but they'd be optional and wouldn't count in division standings. The two division champions play for the conference championship.

Basketball would be trickier with 18, but not much worse than 9, 11, 12, 14 or 15.

(07-21-2017 03:10 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(07-21-2017 11:59 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(07-21-2017 09:14 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  I bet that is awful for Syracuse, especially since I transposed your division.

You would always have BC, WF, FSU, Louisivlle, UNC, and UVa

...I could live with that. Frankly better than what we have now. I'd gladly trade Clemson and NCSt for UNC and UVA

This issue is having BC and 5 yearly games that are random. I get that SU and Pitt don't hate each other, but the two schools didn't play each other over 70x by random chance. Losing that game is an issue.

The same goes for having zero other games of interest on the list. Any one of Miami, VT, or ND would work. It will be 20-30+ years before games against any of those schools matter more than the records of the teams involved.

Edit: To clarify, I too would take UVA + UNC over Clemson and Wake. I just wouldn't lose Pitt to do it.

Yeah, Lumberpack, Pitt and Syracuse should always play. It would be one of the top priorities for Pitt too especially considering it's the only one of Pitt's four old rivals it still plays annually (ND, Penn State and WVU are no longer annual)

Two divisions of 9 will not work.

Second 3 x 5

East - BC, Syr, Pitt, Miami, ND
Piedmont - UNC, NCSU, Duke, CU, GT
South - UVa, WF, VT, FSU, Louisville

CU - FSU, Miami, GT, UNC, NCSU, Duke - Rotate 2
FSU - CU, Miami, VT, UVa, WF, Louis - R2
Miami - FSU, CU, ND, Pitt, BC, Syr - R2
GT - ND, Louis, CU, UNC, Duke, NCSU - R2
ND - GT, Louis, Pitt, Syr, BC, Miami - R2
VT - Pitt, Duke, UVa, WF, FSU, Louis - R2
Louis - GT, ND, FSU, VT, WF, UVa - R2
NCSU - WF, Syr, CU, GT, UNC, Duke - R2
UNC - UVa, BC, CU, GT, NCSU, Duke - R2
Pitt - VT, Duke, ND, Miami, BC, Syr - R2
Syr - NCSU, WF, ND, Miami, Pitt, BC - R2
Duke - Pitt, VT, CU, UNC, NCSU, GT - R2
WF - NCSU, Syr, FSU, VT, Louis, UVa - R2
BC - UNC, UVa, ND, Miami, Pitt, Syr - R2
UVa - UNC, BC, VT, Louis, FSU, WF - R2

I think this gets everyone most everything except WF/UNC and GT/FSU. Anyone other than CU, FSU, GT, Louis, and ND would likely be okay with the occasional OOC game.

Most years Miami, FSU, and Clemson would be favored in their divisions.

Some years it would be ND, GT, and VT

Every once in a while, Louisville, Pitt, and NC State or UNC might break through the other two in their division.

At that 15 - the ACC sets itself up for three plug-ins:

East - BC, Syr, Pitt, Miami, ND (West Va or Navy or Cincy) (any addition here has to be acceptable to ND and willing to play in this division)
Piedmont - UNC, NCSU, Duke, CU, GT (USF or TCU or Tulane) (any addition here has to provide a tie to the Gulf Coast or Florida)
South - UVa, WF, VT, FSU, Louisville (TCU or Texas or Tulane, or Cincy) (this division has the most flexibility - Tulane is here only as a bridge to schools in Texas)

Of course the ideal three would be Penn State in the east, Tennessee, Auburn or Vandy in the Piedmont, and Texas, Auburn or Tennessee in the South. But no SEC schools are moving from the SEC to the ACC, unless ACC schools are also moving to the SEC and the moves are being done to accommodate Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas in the rebirth of the old Southern Conference.

But to possom's point, I think 12, 15, and 18 with three divisions is the way to go for the P-4 - that creates a defacto 16 team playoff and creates 12 division winners to keep fans happy.

The other thing about 18 and three divisions is that it opens the door back to the ACC for West Virginia as long as ESPN is willing to pay because at 18, Duke, UVa, GT, and WF can be kept out of WVa's division, diffusing in part the general admissions issue.

At 15, four votes are needed to blackball and 8 votes are needed to do most other things. At 18, ten votes are needed to do most things and 5 votes are needed to blackball. The SEC and ACC schools came apart at 23 in 1933. The ACC schools and the SoCon schools came apart at 17.


It just occurred to me that this expansion stuff is no different than physicists and chemists trying to reach the periodic chart island of stability - the hypothetical location of elements above 120 that could be stable as all elements above 90 are unstable some in mere micro seconds, others with half lives in the millions of years.

What is the magic number?

(07-21-2017 09:40 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Two divisions of 9 will not work.

Second 3 x 5

East - BC, Syr, Pitt, Miami, ND
Piedmont - UNC, NCSU, Duke, CU, GT
South - UVa, WF, VT, FSU, Louisville

CU - FSU, Miami, GT, UNC, NCSU, Duke - Rotate 2
FSU - CU, Miami, VT, UVa, WF, Louis - R2
Miami - FSU, CU, ND, Pitt, BC, Syr - R2
GT - ND, Louis, CU, UNC, Duke, NCSU - R2
ND - GT, Louis, Pitt, Syr, BC, Miami - R2
VT - Pitt, Duke, UVa, WF, FSU, Louis - R2
Louis - GT, ND, FSU, VT, WF, UVa - R2
NCSU - WF, Syr, CU, GT, UNC, Duke - R2
UNC - UVa, BC, CU, GT, NCSU, Duke - R2
Pitt - VT, Duke, ND, Miami, BC, Syr - R2
Syr - NCSU, WF, ND, Miami, Pitt, BC - R2
Duke - Pitt, VT, CU, UNC, NCSU, GT - R2
WF - NCSU, Syr, FSU, VT, Louis, UVa - R2
BC - UNC, UVa, ND, Miami, Pitt, Syr - R2
UVa - UNC, BC, VT, Louis, FSU, WF - R2

I think this gets everyone most everything except WF/UNC and GT/FSU. Anyone other than CU, FSU, GT, Louis, and ND would likely be okay with the occasional OOC game.

Most years Miami, FSU, and Clemson would be favored in their divisions.

Some years it would be ND, GT, and VT

Every once in a while, Louisville, Pitt, and NC State or UNC might break through the other two in their division.

At that 15 - the ACC sets itself up for three plug-ins:

East - BC, Syr, Pitt, Miami, ND (West Va or Navy or Cincy) (any addition here has to be acceptable to ND and willing to play in this division)
Piedmont - UNC, NCSU, Duke, CU, GT (USF or TCU or Tulane) (any addition here has to provide a tie to the Gulf Coast or Florida)
South - UVa, WF, VT, FSU, Louisville (TCU or Texas or Tulane, or Cincy) (this division has the most flexibility - Tulane is here only as a bridge to schools in Texas)

Of course the ideal three would be Penn State in the east, Tennessee, Auburn or Vandy in the Piedmont, and Texas, Auburn or Tennessee in the South. But no SEC schools are moving from the SEC to the ACC, unless ACC schools are also moving to the SEC and the moves are being done to accommodate Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas in the rebirth of the old Southern Conference.

But to possom's point, I think 12, 15, and 18 with three divisions is the way to go for the P-4 - that creates a defacto 16 team playoff and creates 12 division winners to keep fans happy.

The other thing about 18 and three divisions is that it opens the door back to the ACC for West Virginia as long as ESPN is willing to pay because at 18, Duke, UVa, GT, and WF can be kept out of WVa's division, diffusing in part the general admissions issue.

At 15, four votes are needed to blackball and 8 votes are needed to do most other things. At 18, ten votes are needed to do most things and 5 votes are needed to blackball. The SEC and ACC schools came apart at 23 in 1933. The ACC schools and the SoCon schools came apart at 17.


It just occurred to me that this expansion stuff is no different than physicists and chemists trying to reach the periodic chart island of stability - the hypothetical location of elements above 120 that could be stable as all elements above 90 are unstable some in mere micro seconds, others with half lives in the millions of years.

What is the magic number?

The magic number for football is nine. Four home, four away, four out of division or out of conference. But we've passed that. Why wouldn't two divisions of nine work for football?

The magic number for basketball tournaments is eight or sixteen. Three rounds or four, no byes. I don't know if there's any one magic number for scheduling basketball conference seasons, but with more than ten teams, the double round robin is harder to do.

The easiest way to handle ND at 15 would be to leave the divisions as they are. ND alternates every other year between the divisions & without a permanent crossover. They play just their division, 7 games. No need for a rule change as it is legal now.


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