(07-19-2017 03:01 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 10:05 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-18-2017 10:25 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  Actually, after checking the link the rankings of ACC schools are as follows:

1 Georgia Institute of Technology
5 Duke University
13 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
14 University of Virginia
17 University of Notre Dame
22 University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus
24 Boston College

26 University of Miami
27 North Carolina State University at Raleigh
30 Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University

31 Wake Forest University
33 Florida State University
37 Clemson University

55 Syracuse University

64 University of Louisville

Chris - the rankings you are citing are an overall ranking that included return on investment, faculty strength, etc., etc.

That's not an admissions ranking.

The element I used is the measure of how difficult it is once you get into the University - how easy is it to get an A for lack of a better word.

Ok, so you took the second category, "difficulty" and used that.

To me, a more important category would be Salary ROI. That would be the most important category to me. Those rankings look like:

1 Georgia Institute of Technology
2 Duke University
3 University of Notre Dame
13 Clemson University
15 North Carolina State University at Raleigh
17 Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
24 University of Virginia
30 Wake Forest University
52 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
54 University of Pittsburgh-Pittsburgh Campus
55 Boston College
56 University of Louisville
57 Florida State University
60 University of Miami
66 Syracuse University

Salary ROI is a story of the haves and have nots in the ACC. The top 8 are in the top 30 nationally including the top 3, and the bottom 7 are outside the top 50 out of 68 ranked.

How is Salary ROI calculated? It is actually one of the worst indicators and is always full of self-selection bias in most surveys that collect this information. It is also extremely field specific and geography specific (and breaking up the country into 7 geographic regions is a farse) and usually discounts undergrad alumni that go on to graduate and professional schools while typically using salaries of students who start careers immediately after bachelors degrees. This typically favors schools with large business and engineering populations. A school that produces a lot of MDs or PhDs...after 4 years of med, internship, post-docs, residencies, or is full of liberal arts and social science majors, has an obvious disadvantage. In any case, emphasis on salary, if that is to be a leading mission of a university education, suggests universities should convert into being trade schools.

Any employment-related ranking is going to be dubious. Employment rates inflate art schools (there is no such thing as an unemployed artist or musician), and any salary metric inflates engineering schools.

Entrance metrics show how attractive a school is/the type of student that they recruit, but it has no direct bearing on how well the school does it's job of educating students.

I think that the best metric is a school's reputation amongst guidance councilors. Is it perfect? No. But everything else has trouble taking all factors into account, and everything else is easily (and inherently) skewed.

I was looking at Rivals top 250 for 2018 and noticed the following:

48 are in Florida
22 are in Georgia
9 are in Pa
8 are in NC
4 are in Va
3 are in SC
1 each are in Mass, NY, and KY

States on the direct periphery and in the broadcast footprint run as follows:

8 in MD
7 in NJ
4 in Alabama

ND and Duke can recruit nationally. FSU and Miami can probably recruit nationally, east of the Mississippi River. Clemson can recruit east of the Mississippi and south and east of the Ohio River. Everyone else in the conference really has to fish in Florida, Ga, Pa, NC, and Va.

Plz stop recruiting here. There's not enough talent. TIA

(07-19-2017 02:26 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  GT's problems stem from the following, in order of damage done:

1) An AD who has NO CLUE on marketing, the academic culture, the school, or the fanbase. (Resolved!)
1b) Bad contracts from previous bad ADs (Chan Gailey from Dave Braine (PAID), Paul Hewitt from Dave Braine (STILL BEING PAID), Brian Gregory from Mike Bobinski (STILL BEING PAID)).
1c) Bad stadium debt from a terribly rushed and slapdash expansion and renovation of the stadium (from Dave Braine)
1d) An inexplicable dropping of the ball of the Alexander-Tharpe Fund as the primary vehicle for outside funding from fans above and beyond even season tickets (Party shot! Everybody is in on this one: Dave Braine, Dan Radakovich, Mike Bobinski)
1e) An inexplicable cutting back to bare minimum staffing and funding for assistants and recruiting in football (Mike Bobinski)
1f) A lack of the vision, will power, fortitude, and willingness to round up the resources needed to recruit aggressively at a NATIONAL level. Yes, GT needs to do well at home which is talent rich. But you have to recruit national in scope to deal with the restrictions noted here. Bobby Ross recruited nationally. George O'Leary recruited nationally, and even created some out of state talent pipelines like Jesuit HS in Tampa (George Godsey, Will Glover). A lot of key pieces for Paul Johnson were the rare national recruiting landings. Vad Lee (NC), Justin Thomas (AL), Derrick Morgan (PA), Jeremiah Attachou (DC). (hey look ... Dave Braine actually got this one right for the most part! But Radakovich, Bobinski fail here.)

2) The GABOT. The GABOT is run by two things: gross incompetence and UGAg. Okay so maybe one thing. Even though GT pretty much can't get liberal arts majors added "because of unnecessary duplication of offerings", they handed UGAg a new engineering school when you already have Georgia Tech, Georgia Tech-Savannah, and Georgia Southern doing that.

3) The Hill. Unnecessary academic restrictions above and beyond ACC minimums, particularly the calculus requirement.

That's GT own fault. The BOT's decision was the result of Tech achieving AAU status along with ever increasing admission standards.

(07-21-2017 10:44 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 02:26 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  GT's problems stem from the following, in order of damage done:

1) An AD who has NO CLUE on marketing, the academic culture, the school, or the fanbase. (Resolved!)
1b) Bad contracts from previous bad ADs (Chan Gailey from Dave Braine (PAID), Paul Hewitt from Dave Braine (STILL BEING PAID), Brian Gregory from Mike Bobinski (STILL BEING PAID)).
1c) Bad stadium debt from a terribly rushed and slapdash expansion and renovation of the stadium (from Dave Braine)
1d) An inexplicable dropping of the ball of the Alexander-Tharpe Fund as the primary vehicle for outside funding from fans above and beyond even season tickets (Party shot! Everybody is in on this one: Dave Braine, Dan Radakovich, Mike Bobinski)
1e) An inexplicable cutting back to bare minimum staffing and funding for assistants and recruiting in football (Mike Bobinski)
1f) A lack of the vision, will power, fortitude, and willingness to round up the resources needed to recruit aggressively at a NATIONAL level. Yes, GT needs to do well at home which is talent rich. But you have to recruit national in scope to deal with the restrictions noted here. Bobby Ross recruited nationally. George O'Leary recruited nationally, and even created some out of state talent pipelines like Jesuit HS in Tampa (George Godsey, Will Glover). A lot of key pieces for Paul Johnson were the rare national recruiting landings. Vad Lee (NC), Justin Thomas (AL), Derrick Morgan (PA), Jeremiah Attachou (DC). (hey look ... Dave Braine actually got this one right for the most part! But Radakovich, Bobinski fail here.)

2) The GABOT. The GABOT is run by two things: gross incompetence and UGAg. Okay so maybe one thing. Even though GT pretty much can't get liberal arts majors added "because of unnecessary duplication of offerings", they handed UGAg a new engineering school when you already have Georgia Tech, Georgia Tech-Savannah, and Georgia Southern doing that.

3) The Hill. Unnecessary academic restrictions above and beyond ACC minimums, particularly the calculus requirement.

That's GT own fault. The BOT's decision was the result of Tech achieving AAU status along with ever increasing admission standards.

How do those two things coincide? AAU is about graduate research and a club formed decades ago to keep that research money flowing to those types of institutions. It's a political influence club in DC - yes membership is prestigious but I can assure that Kansas, UNC, TAMU, Ohio State, Oregon, and others have plenty of Non-STEM majors for athletes of less than stellar quality. In fact the AFAM pathway that has UNC in trouble now is also featured at Kansas.

Regarding liberal arts, Tech could try to raise the money for a private, but limited, liberal arts programs in conjunction with Emory. I don't know how the Board works in Georgia, but that might work and get the foot in the door. It would likely be a decade before you could funnel an football or basketball player through such a program - perhaps as a quasi medical program, or a technological history program with Emory's museum.

The other option is to hire private investigators to follow key BOT members and dig up dirt. Leo Jenkins at ECU used dirt he dug up to force the UNC BOG to allow ECU's Medical school and he partnered with NC State so that the Vet School was also in the deal.

(07-21-2017 04:07 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-21-2017 10:44 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 02:26 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  GT's problems stem from the following, in order of damage done:

1) An AD who has NO CLUE on marketing, the academic culture, the school, or the fanbase. (Resolved!)
1b) Bad contracts from previous bad ADs (Chan Gailey from Dave Braine (PAID), Paul Hewitt from Dave Braine (STILL BEING PAID), Brian Gregory from Mike Bobinski (STILL BEING PAID)).
1c) Bad stadium debt from a terribly rushed and slapdash expansion and renovation of the stadium (from Dave Braine)
1d) An inexplicable dropping of the ball of the Alexander-Tharpe Fund as the primary vehicle for outside funding from fans above and beyond even season tickets (Party shot! Everybody is in on this one: Dave Braine, Dan Radakovich, Mike Bobinski)
1e) An inexplicable cutting back to bare minimum staffing and funding for assistants and recruiting in football (Mike Bobinski)
1f) A lack of the vision, will power, fortitude, and willingness to round up the resources needed to recruit aggressively at a NATIONAL level. Yes, GT needs to do well at home which is talent rich. But you have to recruit national in scope to deal with the restrictions noted here. Bobby Ross recruited nationally. George O'Leary recruited nationally, and even created some out of state talent pipelines like Jesuit HS in Tampa (George Godsey, Will Glover). A lot of key pieces for Paul Johnson were the rare national recruiting landings. Vad Lee (NC), Justin Thomas (AL), Derrick Morgan (PA), Jeremiah Attachou (DC). (hey look ... Dave Braine actually got this one right for the most part! But Radakovich, Bobinski fail here.)

2) The GABOT. The GABOT is run by two things: gross incompetence and UGAg. Okay so maybe one thing. Even though GT pretty much can't get liberal arts majors added "because of unnecessary duplication of offerings", they handed UGAg a new engineering school when you already have Georgia Tech, Georgia Tech-Savannah, and Georgia Southern doing that.

3) The Hill. Unnecessary academic restrictions above and beyond ACC minimums, particularly the calculus requirement.

That's GT own fault. The BOT's decision was the result of Tech achieving AAU status along with ever increasing admission standards.

How do those two things coincide? AAU is about graduate research and a club formed decades ago to keep that research money flowing to those types of institutions. It's a political influence club in DC - yes membership is prestigious but I can assure that Kansas, UNC, TAMU, Ohio State, Oregon, and others have plenty of Non-STEM majors for athletes of less than stellar quality. In fact the AFAM pathway that has UNC in trouble now is also featured at Kansas.

Regarding liberal arts, Tech could try to raise the money for a private, but limited, liberal arts programs in conjunction with Emory. I don't know how the Board works in Georgia, but that might work and get the foot in the door. It would likely be a decade before you could funnel an football or basketball player through such a program - perhaps as a quasi medical program, or a technological history program with Emory's museum.

The other option is to hire private investigators to follow key BOT members and dig up dirt. Leo Jenkins at ECU used dirt he dug up to force the UNC BOG to allow ECU's Medical school and he partnered with NC State so that the Vet School was also in the deal.

I don't know how effective it would be, but I kinda like that last option (in an offbeat kind of way). Especially if it's UGag folks they would be digging dirt on...

(07-21-2017 04:07 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-21-2017 10:44 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-19-2017 02:26 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  GT's problems stem from the following, in order of damage done:

1) An AD who has NO CLUE on marketing, the academic culture, the school, or the fanbase. (Resolved!)
1b) Bad contracts from previous bad ADs (Chan Gailey from Dave Braine (PAID), Paul Hewitt from Dave Braine (STILL BEING PAID), Brian Gregory from Mike Bobinski (STILL BEING PAID)).
1c) Bad stadium debt from a terribly rushed and slapdash expansion and renovation of the stadium (from Dave Braine)
1d) An inexplicable dropping of the ball of the Alexander-Tharpe Fund as the primary vehicle for outside funding from fans above and beyond even season tickets (Party shot! Everybody is in on this one: Dave Braine, Dan Radakovich, Mike Bobinski)
1e) An inexplicable cutting back to bare minimum staffing and funding for assistants and recruiting in football (Mike Bobinski)
1f) A lack of the vision, will power, fortitude, and willingness to round up the resources needed to recruit aggressively at a NATIONAL level. Yes, GT needs to do well at home which is talent rich. But you have to recruit national in scope to deal with the restrictions noted here. Bobby Ross recruited nationally. George O'Leary recruited nationally, and even created some out of state talent pipelines like Jesuit HS in Tampa (George Godsey, Will Glover). A lot of key pieces for Paul Johnson were the rare national recruiting landings. Vad Lee (NC), Justin Thomas (AL), Derrick Morgan (PA), Jeremiah Attachou (DC). (hey look ... Dave Braine actually got this one right for the most part! But Radakovich, Bobinski fail here.)

2) The GABOT. The GABOT is run by two things: gross incompetence and UGAg. Okay so maybe one thing. Even though GT pretty much can't get liberal arts majors added "because of unnecessary duplication of offerings", they handed UGAg a new engineering school when you already have Georgia Tech, Georgia Tech-Savannah, and Georgia Southern doing that.

3) The Hill. Unnecessary academic restrictions above and beyond ACC minimums, particularly the calculus requirement.

That's GT own fault. The BOT's decision was the result of Tech achieving AAU status along with ever increasing admission standards.

How do those two things coincide? AAU is about graduate research and a club formed decades ago to keep that research money flowing to those types of institutions. It's a political influence club in DC - yes membership is prestigious but I can assure that Kansas, UNC, TAMU, Ohio State, Oregon, and others have plenty of Non-STEM majors for athletes of less than stellar quality. In fact the AFAM pathway that has UNC in trouble now is also featured at Kansas.

Regarding liberal arts, Tech could try to raise the money for a private, but limited, liberal arts programs in conjunction with Emory. I don't know how the Board works in Georgia, but that might work and get the foot in the door. It would likely be a decade before you could funnel an football or basketball player through such a program - perhaps as a quasi medical program, or a technological history program with Emory's museum.

The other option is to hire private investigators to follow key BOT members and dig up dirt. Leo Jenkins at ECU used dirt he dug up to force the UNC BOG to allow ECU's Medical school and he partnered with NC State so that the Vet School was also in the deal.

Unless there's some news I've missed (a legacy from Ole Roy's time there perhaps?), please give Kansas the benefit of the doubt that it deserves. African American Studies is a legitimate field, with a multidisciplinary approach mostly using history, economics, political science and sociology. The fact that UNC-CH centered their decades of academic fraud around that department shouldn't reflect badly on any other AFAM department, but only on UNC-CH. They could have just as easily chosen any other department with "professors" willing to go along with the scam.

Georgia Tech does have liberal arts majors, but I think the problem is the distribution requirements. Nobody gets out of there without passing college level calculus graded on a very strict curve.

You have missed a great deal if you do not understand that UNC and Kansas are incestuous twins. It's not new. It goes back 80 years. They have traded not just basketball coaches and athletic administrators, but academic persons such as Chancellors.

This has nothing to do with legitimacy of AFAM as legitimate academic study. Where do you think UNC-Ch got the idea? The same place they get their basketball coaches - Kansas.

Larry Brown, Dean Smith, Roy Williams, Wayne Walden, Shade Little, Bernadette Little, etc., etc - head basketball coaches, chancellors, all back and forth between Kansas and UNC-Ch. Even Bill Guthridge went to Kansas State.

The legacy is not that of Roy, but that of Ted Owens - the last Kansas Basketball Coach to be fired back in 83, fired after 20 years. The legacy is don't get fired at Kansas.

Guess who followed him and immediately turned the program around - Larry Brown. Larry got out of dodge ahead of the NCAA and then Roy Boy took his place. Is SMU off probation yet?

With so much cross-pollination you can't escape UNC at Kansas, nor Kansas at UNC.

(07-21-2017 10:15 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  You have missed a great deal if you do not understand that UNC and Kansas are incestuous twins. It's not new. It goes back 80 years. They have traded not just basketball coaches and athletic administrators, but academic persons such as Chancellors.

This has nothing to do with legitimacy of AFAM as legitimate academic study. Where do you think UNC-Ch got the idea? The same place they get their basketball coaches - Kansas.

Larry Brown, Dean Smith, Roy Williams, Wayne Walden, Shade Little, Bernadette Little, etc., etc - head basketball coaches, chancellors, all back and forth between Kansas and UNC-Ch. Even Bill Guthridge went to Kansas State.

The legacy is not that of Roy, but that of Ted Owens - the last Kansas Basketball Coach to be fired back in 83, fired after 20 years. The legacy is don't get fired at Kansas.

Guess who followed him and immediately turned the program around - Larry Brown. Larry got out of dodge ahead of the NCAA and then Roy Boy took his place. Is SMU off probation yet?

With so much cross-pollination you can't escape UNC at Kansas, nor Kansas at UNC.

I certainly don't mean to defend Kansas if they are as filthy as UNC-CH. I don't know if they are or not. I just hope that UNC-CH's actions don't devalue the degrees earned by any student athletes who studied AFAM at other schools in the same way UNC-CH has devalued the degrees of all of their own alums.