(07-18-2017 04:54 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:08 AM)Hambone10 Wrote: Here's the REAL question, Tom....
Can you show me a bathroom bill from a Democratically controlled state that is better (in your opinion) than what I, Bull or Owl have suggested?
Here's my view.
1) Someone's right to be 'comfortable' does not and should never interfere with the access to commerce and education by a minority
2) There are no need for any bathroom bill, other than one that mandates access for those matching their gender either at birth, as transitioned
to, or those in the process of transitioning under the care of a medical doctor. This access should be EQUAL in every way to that of those who were born a certain gender.
3) Every single bathroom bill proposed has mandated that some post op men use the women's room (or post of women use the mens room). Every single, last one of them. These bills are all lies. So long as the other side is being 100% disingenuous regarding the content of their bills, there's no point in debating it.
4) Virtually every one of these bills also removes employment and/or public accoomodations access for LGBT persons. That is what these bills are about.
5) Every debate on this issue centers around the haters trying to scapegoat and punish Trans people for crimes they are not committing. None of these bills do anything to help even mitigate the issue of pervitude in restrooms/changing rooms. Not one single bill. Because all of them mandate some men in womens rooms. So business owners and the state will get sued if they question any man in a ladies room if they guess wrong and the man is simply a post op F to M complying with the law. After a few lawsuits, business owners and the state will simply stop questioning anyone. And God forbid any person complying with the law is assaulted or murdered. The killer/assaulter will probably get no jail time, but it will result in massive boycotts of that municipality.
And the haters in the GOP know this. They don't care. They're just looking to hate.
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Under no circumstances should any post op or transitioning (under the care of medical doctor) Trans person ever have to have any disminishment of their full and equal participation in society. Having a 'question mark' restroom for Trans kids is never acceptable because it opens the kids to abuse. Banning Trans kids from MALE ALPHA TEAM sports is also unacceptable. Making Trans people with 200 years for some sort of refurbishment of a building to have access is also unacceptable.
Because there IS a solution that works right now....simply allow Trans persons to use the facility consistent with that which they present after surgery or during the process of transitioning under the care of a medical doctor. No need to spend so much as one dime. Just treat people fairly.
And you're very obviously just looking to hate back.
I'm wondering why you gave this long response, but didn't answer my very simple question.
You say you don't need a bathroom bill 'other than this one', but you haven't yet shown me where any Democrat controlled state or Democrat representative in a Republican controlled state has presented such a bill. If Democrats were themselves interested in anything other than engaging in the politics of hate, you'd be able to show me such a simple bill....
You use the bathroom of your gender at birth, or as amended (or not) under the care of a physician... pretty much as I suggested. 19 words.
OF COURSE 'the other side' gives you a bill you don't favor.... You're not their constituents. If I had a choice between the two bills, I'd choose the one I articulated which is pretty close to yours... but since I'm not really impacted by it, it doesn't fall very high on my list of priorities.... so I'm certainly not going to favor a 'high tax' democrat over a 'low tax' Republican simply because of the bathroom bill.
and while I generally agree with the bathroom portion of your proposal, you go much further suggesting that the 'family' or 'single use' option somehow demeans people.... and then you stretch it to include sports.
First of all, I don't think girls are generally prohibited from competing as males anymore... it's the opposite... where men are generally prohibited from competing as females... and for very good reasons of the same sort of 'fairness' that you claim to want for trans persons.
As I said, you refuse to give equal weighting to both groups. You support the rights of perhaps a few hundred thousand? I have no idea... trans females to compete as women despite their very obvious advantages over the rights of 100+mm women.
Some family in Canada recently declined to have gender at all on their birth certificate and they had a whole movement supporting them... in fact I think it was actually CALLED a movement (by the supporters)... way to make your child a target so that you can feel better about yourselves... but those people want to violate your proposed (and My and I believe Owl's) agreed bill.
They're engaging in the same 'hate' you're blaming Republicans for.
Let me put it in a different context....
Let's say that geneticists found a way to transition people among their races... that black people could become white and vice versa... and someone either by choice or by genetics (lots of people with mixed race genes) could decide to 'identify' as the other race....... and perhaps even transition to it...
Would you think it fair to eliminate things like scholarships specifically targeted for minorities or hiring preferences or references to slavery and people somehow having been oppressed since now the people representing that race may have actually been the oppressors themselves? Serious question. If you want to go to a completely raceless, genderless society, where everyone competes solely on merit for anything and everything, I suppose we can talk about that... but something tells me you're not going to want to do that.
Asked differently, what if I claimed to be a pre-op male to female trans-gendered lesbian... meaning for all intents and purposes a man... and found a doctor willing to support my gender and sexual identity... should I be allowed to compete against women in athletics or put 'female' on a job application or STEM scholarship that favored women?
Or do we need to have rules?