(06-23-2017 03:04 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Rarely to we go up against Duluth and St Cloud St for hockey recruits. They are going for four year players, while we're going against Big Ten schools, BC, BU, and Denver. Where are coach needs a grinder or a utility type guy, thats where we sometimes compete, but they are looking at him as a star.

My main point is that adding Duluth and Mankato to the Summit does nothing for hockey recruits, so that's a moot point for your (by and large) most important sport

(06-23-2017 03:04 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Basketball recruiting would take a major hit as well as vball.

Wild guess. Which you conveniently make in support of your agenda. I say zero hit, and I'm just as likely to be right as you.

(06-23-2017 03:04 PM)NoDak Wrote:  If Minnesota wanted to build up the Minn St's, they would stop reciprocity agreements with the Dakotas.

Wouldn't matter because athletic scholarships aren't based on dollars.

(06-23-2017 03:28 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 06:27 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 06:17 PM)SMUfan Wrote:  Who replace IUPUI in the Summit?

UMKC and Chicago State

You do know that the Summit kicked out CSU years ago? Again, why can't people do their homework?

The Summit will move towards UMKC and Northern Colorado. They will likely try to get both and I think they will. If UNC come Murray State will be in the OVC forever. The MVFC will divide into east/west divisions.

My guess is IPFW is going to join IUPUI in the Horizon along with RMU next year. That will end Horizon, MVC, Summit realignment for a while. The MVC will stay, no one else is leaving anytime soon. The Horizon will have their 12 and the Summit will have their 10.

And NO Minnesota D2 school will ever go D1 and we don't want them to. No the Montana schools are not moving east.

My post was tongue in cheek. I know the CSU and UMKC history

(06-23-2017 01:03 AM)NDBison Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 06:27 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 06:17 PM)SMUfan Wrote:  Who replace IUPUI in the Summit?

UMKC and Chicago State

Chicago State is a joke, the Summit would need to be on its death bed for that dumpster fire to come back to the league.

(06-22-2017 11:45 PM)SDHornet Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 10:24 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  What would be the advantage of Montana schools leaving Big Sky?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Absolutely zero.

If the Montana schools, Dakota schools and Idaho wanted to form an FBS league it makes a lot of sense but so far I've seen nothing that points to any of them wanting that.

From a geographic standpoint, sure. From an economical one, no...especially not for the Montana's and Idaho.

I would think there would be some benefits to adding Minnesota schools to the Summit. Sure the Dakotas would lose their recruiting edge on athletic recruits but a presence in the much more populous state would give them better access and exposure to recruiting potential tuition-paying students.

Duluth is a fantastic city. Wonderful place to visit, and a reasonably sized market on its own. Great hockey town.

Would they support bball, vball, soccer, etc. in the Summit? Probably nothing special, but would help cut down travel, and would get more of the NCHC schools together for all sports.

Duluth, St. Cloud, and Minnesota State would all be strong candidates, but I remember the thing holding MSU-M and St. Cloud from moving up was not wanting to drop football. Lindenwood would be another good choice if they're angling for callups, though I don't know how interested they'd be in D1.

Chicago State was thrown out of the Summit and is a complete tire fire of a university. No thanks.
The Summit would probably welcome UMKC back, though the reason why the Roos left for the WAC to begin with was that they couldn't compete with the Dakotas. Something tells me UMKC wouldn't be that interested, regardless of how poorly the WAC is working for them.
The only other D1 options would consider the Summit a lateral move at best. UALR, EIU, or even SIU-E aren't leaving their conferences.

The Summit might as well sit at 9 for now, and extend a few feelers to successful D2 programs. That's really all they have.

I see the best forward path for the Summit to basically be the NCC 2.0/NCHC olympics conference.

NCC 2.0 members: NDSU, SDSU, USD, N Colorado
NCHC members: Denver, Omaha, UND, Duluth, St Cloud?, Mankato?, Colorado College?

- I realize a lot of those "NCHC" members would also fall under the NCC 2.0 category
- I realize that Manakto is not (yet) part of the NCHC in hockey
- No idea if CC would ever have enough interest in moving up to DI in all sports ... they might be like St Thomas (MN) in that regard
- Any move ups regardless if that's DII schools from the North Central Conf, or DIII schools like Colorado College, would likely have to drop football to afford the move. If that's something that Mankato and St Cloud can't live with ... that is understandable. I think Duluth would be fine with it, being a U of Minn campus, they can cheer on the Gophers in football

Colorado College dropped from DII to DIII in all sports but hockey in 1967 to cut costs. Hockey is grandfathered in DI. They dropped football and two women's sports in 2006 to cut costs, again. CC has no interest in returning to DII let alone going to DI.

It seems that CC's women's soccer program is also DI as an affiliate member of the MWC. I wonder why they haven't dropped down to DII and became an affiliate of the RMAC. It would save a lot on travel.

(06-25-2017 02:48 PM)lew240z Wrote:  Colorado College dropped from DII to DIII in all sports but hockey in 1967 to cut costs. Hockey is grandfathered in DI. They dropped football and two women's sports in 2006 to cut costs, again. CC has no interest in returning to DII let alone going to DI.

It seems that CC's women's soccer program is also DI as an affiliate member of the MWC. I wonder why they haven't dropped down to DII and became an affiliate of the RMAC. It would save a lot on travel.

Title IX - since they are offering Men's Schollies in Hockey, then have to offer a Women's sport at DI with schollies

Clarkson University (men's and women's ice hockey)
Colorado College (men's ice hockey and women's soccer)
Hartwick College (men's soccer and women's water polo)
Johns Hopkins University (men's and women's lacrosse)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (men's and women's ice hockey)
St. Lawrence University (men's and women's ice hockey)

(06-25-2017 02:52 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 02:48 PM)lew240z Wrote:  Colorado College dropped from DII to DIII in all sports but hockey in 1967 to cut costs. Hockey is grandfathered in DI. They dropped football and two women's sports in 2006 to cut costs, again. CC has no interest in returning to DII let alone going to DI.

It seems that CC's women's soccer program is also DI as an affiliate member of the MWC. I wonder why they haven't dropped down to DII and became an affiliate of the RMAC. It would save a lot on travel.

Title IX - since they are offering Men's Schollies in Hockey, then have to offer a Women's sport at DI with schollies

Clarkson University (men's and women's ice hockey)
Colorado College (men's ice hockey and women's soccer)
Hartwick College (men's soccer and women's water polo)
Johns Hopkins University (men's and women's lacrosse)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (men's and women's ice hockey)
St. Lawrence University (men's and women's ice hockey)

Oh, of course. I should have thought of that. Thanks for the reminder.

State politics have changed, and it seems every state wants to get more and more schools to become an AAU status schools. Minn. State-Mankato could be the Michigan State for Minnesota if they go that route. Minn.-Duluth could become another R1 level for Minnesota like Wisconsin-Milwaukee is to Wisconsin in the research department. Texas and Texas A&M are battling each other on how many of their schools could be research schools. With San Diego State and Fresno State are on the rise in the research departments in California? I think the attitude have changed about having schools moving up. If Omaha was asked to move up today? They may not have dropped their 2 successful programs, football and wrestling. Omaha could be in the MVFC in football if they kept it.

(06-25-2017 06:45 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  State politics have changed, and it seems every state wants to get more and more schools to become an AAU status schools. Minn. State-Mankato could be the Michigan State for Minnesota if they go that route. Minn.-Duluth could become another R1 level for Minnesota like Wisconsin-Milwaukee is to Wisconsin in the research department. Texas and Texas A&M are battling each other on how many of their schools could be research schools. With San Diego State and Fresno State are on the rise in the research departments in California? I think the attitude have changed about having schools moving up. If Omaha was asked to move up today? They may not have dropped their 2 successful programs, football and wrestling. Omaha could be in the MVFC in football if they kept it.

The problem with this David is that the race for federal research money ended around 1980 and the major entrants at that time all divided up market share.

For this reason a school today can't be built from scratch and become an AAU member. The capacity be it physical infrastructure or human capital to support the research required is a hard nut to crack.

The University of California schools have been able to crack the nut as a group but they work TOGETHER to maximize research capacity. University of Minnesota is going to redistribute its resources to other campuses because they want to make sure one institution is very strong in the national research rankings.

It's a non-starter.

(06-25-2017 08:31 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 06:45 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  State politics have changed, and it seems every state wants to get more and more schools to become an AAU status schools. Minn. State-Mankato could be the Michigan State for Minnesota if they go that route. Minn.-Duluth could become another R1 level for Minnesota like Wisconsin-Milwaukee is to Wisconsin in the research department. Texas and Texas A&M are battling each other on how many of their schools could be research schools. With San Diego State and Fresno State are on the rise in the research departments in California? I think the attitude have changed about having schools moving up. If Omaha was asked to move up today? They may not have dropped their 2 successful programs, football and wrestling. Omaha could be in the MVFC in football if they kept it.

The problem with this David is that the race for federal research money ended around 1980 and the major entrants at that time all divided up market share.

For this reason a school today can't be built from scratch and become an AAU member. The capacity be it physical infrastructure or human capital to support the research required is a hard nut to crack.

The University of California schools have been able to crack the nut as a group but they work TOGETHER to maximize research capacity. University of Minnesota is going to redistribute its resources to other campuses because they want to make sure one institution is very strong in the national research rankings.

It's a non-starter.

Have you ever thought that many of the AAU schools are private and are in D3? Do you think they want the research dollars move out of those D3 schools for the D1 public schools? The AAU standards have been out of date for a long time now.

The AAU is based on research only. It doesn't matter what type of school it is as long as it provides a metric crapload of research with some of it having significance. The ones in D3 have a big enough name from their research that they don't need to spend money on athletics if they don't want to.

Back to OP:

North Dakota comes on board in 2018-19, mostly replaces IUPUI. The SL will be short one in Men's Track&Field for a year until UND joins. Swimming&Diving is at five as Valparaiso is joining in both that (offset NDSU dropping the sport) and also Men's Tennis:
http://www.valpoathletics.com/mswim/#.WVP_DulGk2w

(Swimming and Diving is probably not necessary, BE and AAC run separately for only 5 and 3 men's programs without concerns about NCAA qualifying, so 5 is probably OK as SL doesn't need the count for conference standing)

For expansion the realistic candidates are these in order:

1) Southern Illinois -Edwardsville (SIU-E)
They applied seriously to the Horizon, and just over five years ago were in serious discussions with the WAC to join (along with UMKC and Chicago State). It is very clear the OVC is not a happy fit. They are very likely to seriously consider a move, as they very much want a Midwestern conference. (Play baseball). They are in better shape than most Illinois schools in the financial crisis.

2. Eastern Illinois (EIU)
Already play Men's soccer in the Summit. They are also something of an outlier in the OVC. Not sure about their comfort level in the OVC, and not sure how Football gets taken care of. Note, they would be a 6th Football school in the Summit, assuming they join in 2018-19, which would allow the Summit to be a football conference in 2020 when UND joins, with an auto bid. (The MVFC would still have 6 with YSU). This would end the worry about Baseball, although EIU plays that sport also.

3. Missouri-Kansas City (UMKC)
UMKC made an ill-advised move to the WAC five years ago, thinking they would somehow be immediately relevant. As with most conference switches it made no difference in their dreadful performance. However they have a high opinion of themselves and have tried to get the attention of the MVC and tHL with little success. This is a school that is probably not too welcome back - they have the same Chancellor, Leo Morton, who made the decision to leave in the first place. Taking back UMKC would be a sign of weakness for both sides, so I see it as unlikely.

4. Chicago State
The is a break glass option you only consider in a three alarm fire. No question Chicago State would jump at a chance to join a local conference as their WAC contract is up after the 2017-18 term. But they are a disaster situation on a barely adequate for D-II budget. The local conference that makes the most sense for them is the Chicagoland (CCAC) NAIA with D-II basketball (they have done well in APR). On the plus side they play tennis and baseball.

Summary: There is no pressing need to expand. The Summit meets the minimums in all sports. But there is some danger down the road that the Horizon might add Purdue-Fort Wayne (and Robert Morris), so it would be wise to take a preemptive expansion move. The school which would come on board at the drop of a hat is SIUE, and they would prevent any issues with a Fort Wayne exit. Longer term and of even more value is EIU who would finally allow the Summit to have football.

It's very clear from Murray State's opne desire to join the MVC that it's just a matter of "when" and not "if" the MVFC is split and football becomes a sport of the MVC and Summit. Again a preemptive move to control the split in the Summit's favor, I'd invite Eastern Illinois. It would not be a big change. The MVFC mostly schedules the Dakota schools and WIU against each other and most of the MVC schools face each other. In a split there would be a full round robin. And it's extremely likely a schedule agreement to continue to play 2 cross games would be in place to help fill dates for both sides. There is no TV money in the MVFC, as the Dakota schools have contracts with Midco and not via the MVFC, making it painless to split.
http://www.inforum.com/sports/4288506-bi...e-upcoming

Stugray--you're missing a big one and one I think the Summit will pursue--

Northern Colorado--much like EIU they'd bring a football program and they also would be a travel partner for Denver. They are a former conference mate of 5 Summit schools too.

I think there are some flaws with a few of those schools as candidates:

SIU-E and EIU have better travel situations in the OVC and I don't see the, wanting to trek up to the Dakotas. I think they are happy where they are.

I think option 1 is Northern Colorado
2nd pick is forgiving a silly UMKC. While there might be some hard feelings the Summit doesn't have a lot of top 35 tv markets so getting KC back would be a plus.
I don't think Chicago St is even an option since they are such a dumpster fire. The Summit is not in danger of falling below the minimum number of eligible schools so I think they would being in Minnesota D2s before taking the Chi St Cougars.

(06-28-2017 04:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Stugray--you're missing a big one and one I think the Summit will pursue--

Northern Colorado--much like EIU they'd bring a football program and they also would be a travel partner for Denver. They are a former conference mate of 5 Summit schools too.

I think there are some flaws with a few of those schools as candidates:

SIU-E and EIU have better travel situations in the OVC and I don't see the, wanting to trek up to the Dakotas. I think they are happy where they are.

I think option 1 is Northern Colorado
2nd pick is forgiving a silly UMKC. While there might be some hard feelings the Summit doesn't have a lot of top 35 tv markets so getting KC back would be a plus.
I don't think Chicago St is even an option since they are such a dumpster fire. The Summit is not in danger of falling below the minimum number of eligible schools so I think they would being in Minnesota D2s before taking the Chi St Cougars.

Again, someone with no knowledge of Minnesota politics. No one will be allowed to move up, even if they were to move as a group(which isn't allowed anymore, anyway). The opposition isn't going to come from the Dakota schools, it's coming from the legislature.

Now if the MVC adds Murray State and Milwaukee to go to 12, and the MVFC adds Murray State as its 12th member, the Summit will effectively be forced to split from the MVFC to add more football playing members.

NoCo is not interested. The Big Sky is better for them, fits their sports mix and western orientation and Mountain Time zone. They recruit Colorado 1st, California and Seattle 2nd, then a big gap to Texas 3rd and another gap to Florida and Chicago - you have to add all three together to equal California. The Summit makes not sense for NoCo in terms of students or recruiting. The travel would be mo better heading to small towns in the Midwest. Makes ZERO sense for NoCo.

You guys need to not pay much attention to the North Dakota based posters when evaluating these things. They have a very warped view of geography and regional leanings. Everything they post is about what would be good for North Dakota (or NDSU) and not what makes sense for the schools they want to join them. If you notice nobody from the Mountain or Pacific time zones agrees with their opinion. They seem to think Grand Forks is located just outside Santa Barbara and Fargo is nearer Carlsbad. (Cabin Fever ... but in late June?)

On Chicago State, I threw that out as a break glass three alarm fire, nobody is willing to join and you just lost Ft. Wayne! But that was to demonstrate the pickings are slim.

UMKC the issue is bad blood.

SIU-E wants to leave the OVC, its a bad fit. They recognize their dependence upon Chicago and the Midwest for students, not the upper South. SIUE are the most likely to accept an invite tomorrow. EIu would very likely consider after SIUE joined, as that would be a conference with WIU and SIUE as well as themselves, and they would be the only Illinois school in the OVC. The OVC does not look very secure. Murray wanting to leave and SIUE also trying to leave, everyone courting Belmont, is obvious to everyone in the league. If one leaves they are likely to see two or three more.

Anyway my point is the Summit should focus on the schools who are most likely to be interested and not on North Dakota posters wet dreams.

Interesting that Montana signed a long term football deal today with UND. Guess it helped that I went on their board this weekend and said the Montanas and Idaho were moving to the Summit as soon as it's truly a plains conference. The Montana AD must have wanted to dispell such heresy among fans!