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Rutgers/Maryland Big Ten article
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #121
RE: Rutgers/Maryland Big Ten article
A good opponent doesn't necessarily mean people show up.

Again, that week when PSU and IU were in Landover, with FSU visiting UMD a few miles away, Byrd was not sold-out. So, why assume FSU is even on the same level as Michigan, Ohio State, or Nebraska?

Bad draws happen in both conferences. Anti-B1G PSU fans toss out the bad gates from Northwestern, Minny, IU, Purdue, and Illinois would often bring (or not), but those gates still push 90-95K (talk about a FWP); are Duke, Wake, UMFL, and even UVA, UNC, and BC going to bring that and more?

From what I've heard, even Virginia Tech isn't necessarily overwhelming others' venues. And it doesn't help that PSU and VT don't have much of a history with each other. That doesn't just become a rivalry.
(This post was last modified: 05-31-2017 03:35 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
05-31-2017 03:32 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #122
RE: Rutgers/Maryland Big Ten article
(05-31-2017 01:28 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 01:17 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(05-30-2017 11:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-30-2017 11:06 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-30-2017 10:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Since you're a Penn State guy I'll take your word for everything I snipped about how PSU feels about the B1G, but as an outsider it seems to me that the whole idea of PSU leaving the B1G for the ACC seems ridiculous for one reason: The ACC just isn't as powerful and monied as the B1G, and nobody i can ever recall has ever left a more-powerful, more-monied conference for a lesser one, at least not voluntarily.

The Big 10 (pre-Maryland/Rutgers addition) was more powerful than the ACC because Penn State was in the Big 10.

The B1G has always been more monied and powerful than the ACC - now, and before PSU joined.

Yeah. It could be different, but, it isn't.

ACC made some weird choices over the years, and at their own expense. Given the footprint, they should be killing everyone with their geographical coverage. Chalk it up to bad "business" and politics, I guess?

The ACC made numerous strategic errors over the last 64 years. By contrast, the Big Ten - which already began with an advantage - has made fewer mistakes, IMO.

What mistakes has the ACC made? I'm curious.

Their additions were:
1979 - Georgia Tech
1991 - Florida State
2004 - Miami, Va Tech, Boston College
2013 - Pitt, Syracuse, Notre Dame
2014 - Louisville

The only real mistake I see on that list is BC, and it looked pretty decent at the time.
05-31-2017 04:14 PM
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Mav Offline
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Post: #123
RE: Rutgers/Maryland Big Ten article
I could get Maryland from a Big Ten perspective, even if I felt like they're an ACC school at heart, and I think they have the potential to be a perennial bowl team if they tried. Rutgers is and always has been a complete dumpster fire of a program, though. I wonder if Delaney had a wayback machine, knowing what he does about cord-cutting today, if he would have stayed at 12 or offered Kansas instead.

Missouri would have made more sense than Rutgers too, but I'm glad the B1G isn't dealing with that dumpster fire. Yeesh.
05-31-2017 09:54 PM
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Hokie Mark Online
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Post: #124
RE: Rutgers/Maryland Big Ten article
(05-31-2017 04:14 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 01:28 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 01:17 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(05-30-2017 11:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-30-2017 11:06 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The Big 10 (pre-Maryland/Rutgers addition) was more powerful than the ACC because Penn State was in the Big 10.

The B1G has always been more monied and powerful than the ACC - now, and before PSU joined.

Yeah. It could be different, but, it isn't.

ACC made some weird choices over the years, and at their own expense. Given the footprint, they should be killing everyone with their geographical coverage. Chalk it up to bad "business" and politics, I guess?

The ACC made numerous strategic errors over the last 64 years. By contrast, the Big Ten - which already began with an advantage - has made fewer mistakes, IMO.

What mistakes has the ACC made? I'm curious.

Their additions were:
1979 - Georgia Tech
1991 - Florida State
2004 - Miami, Va Tech, Boston College
2013 - Pitt, Syracuse, Notre Dame
2014 - Louisville

The only real mistake I see on that list is BC, and it looked pretty decent at the time.

It's mostly what the ACC didn't do.
* Didn't expand to 12 immediately after the SEC demonstrated the advantages of having a conference championship game in football (HINDSIGHT).
* Didn't act quickly enough to get Penn State before the Big Ten did (IMO).
* Didn't do enough to make Maryland happy, but rather, isolated them (IMO).
* Signed a ridiculously long (12 yr) first TV contract with ESPN which included ALL rights to football (HINDSIGHT).

STUFF LIKE THAT.

The league has done a good job of digging itself out of the hole it created, but never should've even been in that situation, IMO.
06-01-2017 06:42 AM
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mj4life Offline
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Post: #125
RE: Rutgers/Maryland Big Ten article
(06-01-2017 06:42 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 04:14 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 01:28 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 01:17 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(05-30-2017 11:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The B1G has always been more monied and powerful than the ACC - now, and before PSU joined.

Yeah. It could be different, but, it isn't.

ACC made some weird choices over the years, and at their own expense. Given the footprint, they should be killing everyone with their geographical coverage. Chalk it up to bad "business" and politics, I guess?

The ACC made numerous strategic errors over the last 64 years. By contrast, the Big Ten - which already began with an advantage - has made fewer mistakes, IMO.

What mistakes has the ACC made? I'm curious.

Their additions were:
1979 - Georgia Tech
1991 - Florida State
2004 - Miami, Va Tech, Boston College
2013 - Pitt, Syracuse, Notre Dame
2014 - Louisville

The only real mistake I see on that list is BC, and it looked pretty decent at the time.

It's mostly what the ACC didn't do.
* Didn't expand to 12 immediately after the SEC demonstrated the advantages of having a conference championship game in football (HINDSIGHT).
* Didn't act quickly enough to get Penn State before the Big Ten did (IMO).
* Didn't do enough to make Maryland happy, but rather, isolated them (IMO).
* Signed a ridiculously long (12 yr) first TV contract with ESPN which included ALL rights to football (HINDSIGHT).

STUFF LIKE THAT.

The league has done a good job of digging itself out of the hole it created, but never should've even been in that situation, IMO.

That's why any expansion by the ACC has to strengthen football first & foremost. A school has to be high on several metrics including recruting territory, fan & institutional support. Any prospective school has to be able to put a product on the field that adds to the overall appeal of the brand with fans,bowls etc especially as tv transitions
06-01-2017 08:43 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #126
RE: Rutgers/Maryland Big Ten article
(05-31-2017 04:14 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 01:28 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 01:17 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(05-30-2017 11:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-30-2017 11:06 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The Big 10 (pre-Maryland/Rutgers addition) was more powerful than the ACC because Penn State was in the Big 10.

The B1G has always been more monied and powerful than the ACC - now, and before PSU joined.

Yeah. It could be different, but, it isn't.

ACC made some weird choices over the years, and at their own expense. Given the footprint, they should be killing everyone with their geographical coverage. Chalk it up to bad "business" and politics, I guess?

The ACC made numerous strategic errors over the last 64 years. By contrast, the Big Ten - which already began with an advantage - has made fewer mistakes, IMO.

What mistakes has the ACC made? I'm curious.

Their additions were:
1979 - Georgia Tech
1991 - Florida State
2004 - Miami, Va Tech, Boston College
2013 - Pitt, Syracuse, Notre Dame
2014 - Louisville

The only real mistake I see on that list is BC, and it looked pretty decent at the time.

IMO, the only fundamental mistake the ACC made was its (informal) early 1960s decision to de-emphasize football.

That hurt long term, as it sent the ACC on a trajectory where it didn't build the huge football fan bases of the B1G and SEC, thus becoming fundamentally less valuable.

The harm done was masked for a while because the NCAA had a stranglehold on TV exposure and doled it out equally, but it really started to hurt after 1984, when the supreme court deregulated college television. It's no surprise that it was shortly thereafter that the ACC decided that it must start to build its football profile (good for it that it did recognize this pretty quickly once the TV playing field changed), and that need has reverberated to this very day, as it has added schools that didn't fit its cultural profile (FSU, Miami, and later Louisville) in order to boost its football value.

It's been an ongoing 30 year struggle to overcome that decision from the 1960s. Lots of ground has been made up, but at the price of conference coherence. The ACC is a big sprawling soulless entity these days, particularly for people like myself that grew up with the sleepy, but highly culturally unified and coherent, ACC of the 1980s and before.
(This post was last modified: 06-01-2017 09:19 AM by quo vadis.)
06-01-2017 09:14 AM
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Hokie4Skins Offline
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Post: #127
RE: Rutgers/Maryland Big Ten article
FSU dominating the ACC in the '90s (62-2!) sure didn't help the national perception.
06-01-2017 10:05 AM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #128
RE: Rutgers/Maryland Big Ten article
(05-31-2017 09:54 PM)Mav Wrote:  I could get Maryland from a Big Ten perspective, even if I felt like they're an ACC school at heart, and I think they have the potential to be a perennial bowl team if they tried. Rutgers is and always has been a complete dumpster fire of a program, though. I wonder if Delaney had a wayback machine, knowing what he does about cord-cutting today, if he would have stayed at 12 or offered Kansas instead.

Missouri would have made more sense than Rutgers too, but I'm glad the B1G isn't dealing with that dumpster fire. Yeesh.

Someone clearly never watched Big East FB for a decade when Rutgers went to a Bowl 9 out of 10 years.
06-01-2017 11:04 AM
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mikeinsec127 Offline
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Post: #129
RE: Rutgers/Maryland Big Ten article
(05-31-2017 04:14 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 01:28 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 01:17 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(05-30-2017 11:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-30-2017 11:06 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The Big 10 (pre-Maryland/Rutgers addition) was more powerful than the ACC because Penn State was in the Big 10.

The B1G has always been more monied and powerful than the ACC - now, and before PSU joined.

Yeah. It could be different, but, it isn't.

ACC made some weird choices over the years, and at their own expense. Given the footprint, they should be killing everyone with their geographical coverage. Chalk it up to bad "business" and politics, I guess?

The ACC made numerous strategic errors over the last 64 years. By contrast, the Big Ten - which already began with an advantage - has made fewer mistakes, IMO.

What mistakes has the ACC made? I'm curious.

Their additions were:
1979 - Georgia Tech
1991 - Florida State
2004 - Miami, Va Tech, Boston College
2013 - Pitt, Syracuse, Notre Dame
2014 - Louisville

The only real mistake I see on that list is BC, and it looked pretty decent at the time.

The ACC made plenty of mistakes during the last two rounds of expansion. Compared to what was expected, Miami and BC were both busts once they were in. Pitt and Cuse were only invited out of desperation. It was a per-emptive move because the ACC believed it was about to loose two schools to the BIG or B12. It didn't invite UConn and Rutgers to lock up the eastern seaboard, which left the door open for the BIG to move into the NY-Philly-Balto-DC megalopolis. The two best moves were bringing in VT and Louisville and those were forced onto the ACC. This doesn't even address the ACC being late to the table on launching a network, or the lost years of moving CCGs around trying to find a live audience and how much that has cost in lost revenue.
06-01-2017 12:14 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #130
RE: Rutgers/Maryland Big Ten article
(06-01-2017 06:42 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 04:14 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 01:28 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(05-31-2017 01:17 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(05-30-2017 11:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  The B1G has always been more monied and powerful than the ACC - now, and before PSU joined.

Yeah. It could be different, but, it isn't.

ACC made some weird choices over the years, and at their own expense. Given the footprint, they should be killing everyone with their geographical coverage. Chalk it up to bad "business" and politics, I guess?

The ACC made numerous strategic errors over the last 64 years. By contrast, the Big Ten - which already began with an advantage - has made fewer mistakes, IMO.

What mistakes has the ACC made? I'm curious.

Their additions were:
1979 - Georgia Tech
1991 - Florida State
2004 - Miami, Va Tech, Boston College
2013 - Pitt, Syracuse, Notre Dame
2014 - Louisville

The only real mistake I see on that list is BC, and it looked pretty decent at the time.

It's mostly what the ACC didn't do.
* Didn't expand to 12 immediately after the SEC demonstrated the advantages of having a conference championship game in football (HINDSIGHT).
* Didn't act quickly enough to get Penn State before the Big Ten did (IMO).
* Didn't do enough to make Maryland happy, but rather, isolated them (IMO).
* Signed a ridiculously long (12 yr) first TV contract with ESPN which included ALL rights to football (HINDSIGHT).

STUFF LIKE THAT.

The league has done a good job of digging itself out of the hole it created, but never should've even been in that situation, IMO.

Yeah, these are the ones that come to mind.

The thing with UMD and PSU is a lose-lose, imo, and I don't think you could ever get both. And, in this case, the ACC ultimately lost on both, and keeping PSU out was something to appease UMD, because it was UMD who really didn't want them. From what I gather, UMD was just a pill in that conference; there was probably no matter they wouldn't have been completely happy. At best, maybe you swap out PSU for UMD if the Terps got that upset about the gain to leave...would that make the ACC better than the Big Ten? Maryland's a huge get for anyone, really, even if they're hurting financially themselves.

The hesitance to move to 12 was a biggie. Especially because the conference eventually took one of the schools it turned down repeatedly before, Miami. It was a dumb move, and it really started this arms race in expansion and realignment because the Big East began to populate with schools who wanted to be elsewhere anyway, but couldn't find an in with the ACC (or SEC). Miami, Tech, WVU...come on...the Big East basically HAD to take these programs because they were all that was left of the major eastern independents. And Army, Navy, and Notre Dame weren't interested. People knew Miami always wanted to be in the ACC; their term in the Big East always had a countdown. There were others in the Big East who saw themselves as a northern ACC, partly because the ACC wasn't interested at the time in expanding further north than Maryland.

So, by the time the ACC did expand to 12, it did so from the pool of schools it could have had over a decade ago had it simply asked or didn't refuse. The candidate pool didn't expand because the ACC wanted more teams...it never looked outside of what would become the Big East, and it just added to the fickleness of the image. Also, they were terrible at the media negotiations...better at it with the presidents, but not good with execs.
06-01-2017 12:28 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #131
RE: Rutgers/Maryland Big Ten article
(06-01-2017 10:05 AM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  FSU dominating the ACC in the '90s (62-2!) sure didn't help the national perception.

True. Clemson and GT had some down seasons that decade. You had NCST and UVA who were average or above it, but not FSU-level. You had a ton of inconsistency with with aforementioned GT, Clemson, and UNC. UMD, Duke, and Wake couldn't be counted on for much.

Does it get better if you take Miami back then and get to 10?

Maybe not be such a snob about WVU? Heck, get to 12 by way of UMFL, WVU, and Pitt and put a real hurt on the east coast by owning FSU-UMFL and the backyard brawl? Those series commanded quite a few eyes back then.
06-01-2017 12:41 PM
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