(05-07-2017 06:28 PM)bluebacker Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 11:50 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  How well did our teams play loaded with 4* & 5* players under JP? Never got past the 2nd round. And IMO that's a reflection on the reliability (lack of) of the ratings of HS players beyond the the top 2-3 at each position & even then some of those don't live up to their rankings (Labrissere, Thomas just to mention two from Memphis). Some live up to billing, many do not. Some can be coached up, some can't - and virtually all of the eventual determination of that is born out in wins & losses at the college level.

Who cares how the players did under JP? How did they do under Cal?

Just because JP recruited at a high level and did very little with it is no reason to not want a coach who can recruit well AND get the most out of his players.

One does not exclude the other yet you keep rolling this statement out there.

For $3million per year, is that too much to ask?

(05-07-2017 09:25 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 06:28 PM)bluebacker Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 11:50 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  How well did our teams play loaded with 4* & 5* players under JP? Never got past the 2nd round. And IMO that's a reflection on the reliability (lack) of the ratings of HS players beyond the the top 2-3 at each position & even then some of those don't live up to their rankings (Labrissere, Thomas just to mention two from Memphis). Some live up to billing, many do not. Some can be coached up, some can't - and virtually all of the eventual determination of that is born out in wins & losses at the college level.

Who cares how the players did under JP? How did they do under Cal?

Just because JP recruited at a high level and did very little with it is no reason to not want a coach who can recruit well AND get the most out of his players.

One does not exclude the other yet you keep rolling this statement out there.

The only statement I "keep rolling out" is that all of this judgement, speculation & whining means nothing - it's a waste of time. If a guy is a good recruiter it will usually show up in wins & if a good recruiter is a also a good coach, it will show up in more wins. In the case of JP, I question both the ranking of the recruits & his ability to coach. In the case of Tubby, he has a long track record of winning - and with the exception of UK, Tubby has improved every program he as been associated with from Tulsa to UGA to MN to TT - and for all of the discounting of Tubby's UK years he led Kentucky to one national championship in 1998, a perfect 16–0 regular season conference record in 2003, five SEC regular season championships (1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005) and five SEC Tournament titles (1998, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2004). And he led UK to six SS appearances (1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005) and four E8s appearances (1998, 1999, 2003, 2005) in his ten seasons. AND NOT ONCE IN ALL OF HIS YEARS AS HEAD COACH HAS ONE OF HIS TEAMS BEEN ON NCAA PROBATION. And just for comparison, Calipari at UK also has 1 nat'l title, despite having the #1 recruiting class each year since he's been at UK. IMO that puts Tubby is pretty good company - even better if you think Tubby can't recruit.

Why hasn't he been able to duplicate what he did at Kentucky?

(05-07-2017 09:59 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 09:25 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 06:28 PM)bluebacker Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 11:50 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  How well did our teams play loaded with 4* & 5* players under JP? Never got past the 2nd round. And IMO that's a reflection on the reliability (lack of) of the ratings of HS players beyond the the top 2-3 at each position & even then some of those don't live up to their rankings (Labrissere, Thomas just to mention two from Memphis). Some live up to billing, many do not. Some can be coached up, some can't - and virtually all of the eventual determination of that is born out in wins & losses at the college level.

Who cares how the players did under JP? How did they do under Cal?

Just because JP recruited at a high level and did very little with it is no reason to not want a coach who can recruit well AND get the most out of his players.

One does not exclude the other yet you keep rolling this statement out there.

I'm with you . I see no logic there.

Plus I don't know why all of us wouldn't want Tubby to have a go at it with more talent. I think most of us agree he can coach.

Never said anything about not wanting more talent - I just question the legitimacy of the high school player ratings & pointed out that recent 4 & 5* ranked recruits have underwhelming at Memphis & even at UK. OK, blame the coach but most haven't gone on to be top 100 pros either.

Even you know your argument is ridiculous. You specifically called out Skal who is doing pretty well in the pros. Cal has taken freshmen to deep runs in the NCAA over and over. That alone shows that high ranked players are good to have.

(05-07-2017 10:15 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 09:59 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 09:25 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 06:28 PM)bluebacker Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 11:50 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  How well did our teams play loaded with 4* & 5* players under JP? Never got past the 2nd round. And IMO that's a reflection on the reliability (lack of) of the ratings of HS players beyond the the top 2-3 at each position & even then some of those don't live up to their rankings (Labrissere, Thomas just to mention two from Memphis). Some live up to billing, many do not. Some can be coached up, some can't - and virtually all of the eventual determination of that is born out in wins & losses at the college level.

Who cares how the players did under JP? How did they do under Cal?

Just because JP recruited at a high level and did very little with it is no reason to not want a coach who can recruit well AND get the most out of his players.

One does not exclude the other yet you keep rolling this statement out there.

I'm with you . I see no logic there.

Plus I don't know why all of us wouldn't want Tubby to have a go at it with more talent. I think most of us agree he can coach.

Never said anything about not wanting more talent - I just question the legitimacy of the high school player ratings & pointed out that recent 4 & 5* ranked recruits have underwhelming at Memphis & even at UK. OK, blame the coach but most haven't gone on to be top 100 pros either.

Even you know your argument is ridiculous. You specifically called out Skal who is doing pretty well in the pros. Cal has taken freshmen to deep runs in the NCAA over and over. That alone shows that high ranked players are good to have.

Please, Skal was the #1 ranked player in the country out of high school. He was disappointing at UK & he's a role player in the pros. And what about Adonis Thomas, I think he was ranked #7 out of high school & where is he now? Wins & losses, my friend, everything else is just BS.

(05-07-2017 03:07 PM)BJD Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 02:54 PM)MTigerBlue Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 12:52 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 11:50 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  How well did our teams play loaded with 4* & 5* players under JP? Never got past the 2nd round. And IMO that's a reflection on the reliability (lack of) of the ratings of HS players beyond the the top 2-3 at each position & even then some of those don't live up to their rankings (Labrissere, Thomas just to mention two from Memphis). Some live up to billing, many do not. Some can be coached up, some can't - and virtually all of the eventual determination of that is born out in wins & losses at the college level.

That isnt a reflection of 4 and 5 * players, that is only a reflection of JP.

I tell you what, go to the year we had a top 3 class. From that same year, look at the other teams in the top 10 recruiting. Then take those other 9 teams and see how they did for 4 years. If the majority of those 9 teams didn't make respectable runs in the NCAA, I will concede you have a point.

It's a definite reflection on JP's overall coaching ability, but it's also a reflection on his specific, early recruiting ability. He was very good at it. Way better than Tubby will probably ever be, as far as getting top rated players to come to Memphis. If for no other reason, I doubt Tubby will be here long enough.

But as hsvtiger said and as everyone knows, the reality of the situation is that he'll be here at least another couple of years. And his tenure will probably not last more than five -- at least, that would be my guess. And I suspect that was the plan. I don't think he was ever seen as a long-term fix. He has a reputation, lately, of being able to get bad teams turned around and back to the tournament.

If he does that, I suspect he'll have succeeded in the eyes of those who chose him for the gig. Then the Greg's and the Buzz's and the like would be more inclined to listen to our pitch. They weren't last time, for what we were able or willing to offer.

And, again, if I had to guess, I suspect it will be the willingness, rather than the ability, that will be what changes. Those last two Pastner years did a number on fans, boosters, ambassadors, administration . . . concessions, surrounding businesses, local sales taxes . . . media, local coaches, prospects . . . ad infinitum.

When we get back to the dance, the perception will improve. And if we win there, the flow will change directions markedly. The big divide is over WHETHER we will under Tubby, and the fact of the matter is, nobody knows.

I know. And most of the UK fans know. The Minn fans know and the TT fans know. tubby will not get Memphis near the NCAA tourney. His reputation is take a good team that inherits and then take them down.

His first year at a new school is usually his best. The tubby effect hasn't taken hold then.

Anyone that doesn't know is being willfully blind.

Actually, that is completely false. At Tulsa they went to the dance his last 2 years there. At GA he went every year he was there. At KY he went every year he was there. At MN he went in the middle of his tenure and in his last year. At TT he went in his last year there. He is about as "not sexy" as a coach can get but he is productive in a deliberate, plodding sort of way. He also is in constant "never suffer a fool" mode with the media and that pisses them off. I don't particularly find him exciting but I am willing to bet that if he serves out the term of his contract we will end up back in the tournament. Its one thing to dislike his style but its completely wrong for some of the outright falsehoods that are being spit out here.

Sent from my LG-H811 using CSNbbs mobile app

(05-07-2017 10:13 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 09:25 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 06:28 PM)bluebacker Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 11:50 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  How well did our teams play loaded with 4* & 5* players under JP? Never got past the 2nd round. And IMO that's a reflection on the reliability (lack) of the ratings of HS players beyond the the top 2-3 at each position & even then some of those don't live up to their rankings (Labrissere, Thomas just to mention two from Memphis). Some live up to billing, many do not. Some can be coached up, some can't - and virtually all of the eventual determination of that is born out in wins & losses at the college level.

Who cares how the players did under JP? How did they do under Cal?

Just because JP recruited at a high level and did very little with it is no reason to not want a coach who can recruit well AND get the most out of his players.

One does not exclude the other yet you keep rolling this statement out there.

The only statement I "keep rolling out" is that all of this judgement, speculation & whining means nothing - it's a waste of time. If a guy is a good recruiter it will usually show up in wins & if a good recruiter is a also a good coach, it will show up in more wins. In the case of JP, I question both the ranking of the recruits & his ability to coach. In the case of Tubby, he has a long track record of winning - and with the exception of UK, Tubby has improved every program he as been associated with from Tulsa to UGA to MN to TT - and for all of the discounting of Tubby's UK years he led Kentucky to one national championship in 1998, a perfect 16–0 regular season conference record in 2003, five SEC regular season championships (1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005) and five SEC Tournament titles (1998, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2004). And he led UK to six SS appearances (1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005) and four E8s appearances (1998, 1999, 2003, 2005) in his ten seasons. AND NOT ONCE IN ALL OF HIS YEARS AS HEAD COACH HAS ONE OF HIS TEAMS BEEN ON NCAA PROBATION. And just for comparison, Calipari at UK also has 1 nat'l title, despite having the #1 recruiting class each year since he's been at UK. IMO that puts Tubby is pretty good company - even better if you think Tubby can't recruit.

Why hasn't he been able to duplicate what he did at Kentucky?

As I said elsewhere on this site, I'm ambivalent on Tubby (I'll let wins & losses determine my opinion over his contract) but there is so much blind bias against him, it begs a defense. Tubby has duplicated & even surpassed his UK results, relatively speaking at other schools. He had back-to-back SS appearances at Tulsa, at UGA he made the tourney each year he was there, made the tourney at MN & at TT - and all of these programs were before & have since been mediocre.

(05-07-2017 10:21 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 10:15 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 09:59 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 09:25 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 06:28 PM)bluebacker Wrote:  Who cares how the players did under JP? How did they do under Cal?

Just because JP recruited at a high level and did very little with it is no reason to not want a coach who can recruit well AND get the most out of his players.

One does not exclude the other yet you keep rolling this statement out there.

I'm with you . I see no logic there.

Plus I don't know why all of us wouldn't want Tubby to have a go at it with more talent. I think most of us agree he can coach.

Never said anything about not wanting more talent - I just question the legitimacy of the high school player ratings & pointed out that recent 4 & 5* ranked recruits have underwhelming at Memphis & even at UK. OK, blame the coach but most haven't gone on to be top 100 pros either.

Even you know your argument is ridiculous. You specifically called out Skal who is doing pretty well in the pros. Cal has taken freshmen to deep runs in the NCAA over and over. That alone shows that high ranked players are good to have.

Please, Skal was the #1 ranked player in the country out of high school. He was disappointing at UK & he's a role player in the pros. And what about Adonis Thomas, I think he was ranked #7 out of high school & where is he now? Wins & losses, my friend, everything else is just BS.

I will assume you are joking, but just in case...

Year/Player/Team/PPG by year (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th)
#1
2016 Jackson - Kansas, 16.3
2015 Skal - Kentucky, 6.6
2014 Okafor - Duke, 17.3
2013 Wiggins - Kansas 17.1
2012 Muhammad - UCLA, 17.9
2011 Rivers - Duke, 15.5
2010 Selby - Kansas 7.9
2009 Wall - Kentucky, 16.6
2008 Mullens - Ohio State, 8.8
2007 Beasley - Kansas State, 26.2

#106
2016 Young - Texas, 3.7
2015 Wade - Kansas State, 9.9/9.3
2014 Nickens - Maryland, 6.1/5.4/3.1
2013 Smith - Dayton, 3.6/9.2/11.7/13.8
2012 Bolden - Georgia Tech, 7.3/5.4/6.9
2011 Brundidge - Michigan, 2.4/7.5/2.5/10.5 (Detroit after freshman season)
2010 Epps - Pitt (Monroe College)
2009 Thames - Washington State, 4.6/10.1/9.5/17.6
2008 Baciu - Clemson, 2.0/1.3/1.0/4.1
2007 Neysmith - Oklahoma, 0.5/0.1/2.4/0.3

Johnson is our highest ranked recruit at #106. There are players ranked #106 that end up being good eventually, but by my count, only 2 out of the last 10 turned out to be above average D1 players. Conversely, most of the #1's turned out to be very good right out of the box.

Naturally, you have to consider that the #1's didn't stick around very much, but you also have to consider that the good recruiters aren't getting #1 and then getting recruits inferior to #106. They are always getting other really good recruits.

As far as #106 goes, as said, they sometimes turn out to be good players eventually. Having said that, Johnson is our highest ranked freshman recruit in 2 years, and Clergeot is gone, so we can't exactly say that Tubby is building anything here.

The disclaimer stays the same. We do have some hope, we will have to wait to see how the guys play together, but history, common sense and logic dictate that it will be very tough sledding this year and very tough for 2019 unless Tubby pulls a rabbit out of his hat in the 2018 class.

(05-07-2017 11:56 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 10:21 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 10:15 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 09:59 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 09:25 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  I'm with you . I see no logic there.

Plus I don't know why all of us wouldn't want Tubby to have a go at it with more talent. I think most of us agree he can coach.

Never said anything about not wanting more talent - I just question the legitimacy of the high school player ratings & pointed out that recent 4 & 5* ranked recruits have underwhelming at Memphis & even at UK. OK, blame the coach but most haven't gone on to be top 100 pros either.

Even you know your argument is ridiculous. You specifically called out Skal who is doing pretty well in the pros. Cal has taken freshmen to deep runs in the NCAA over and over. That alone shows that high ranked players are good to have.

Please, Skal was the #1 ranked player in the country out of high school. He was disappointing at UK & he's a role player in the pros. And what about Adonis Thomas, I think he was ranked #7 out of high school & where is he now? Wins & losses, my friend, everything else is just BS.

I will assume you are joking, but just in case...

Year/Player/Team/PPG by year (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th)
#1
2016 Jackson - Kansas, 16.3
2015 Skal - Kentucky, 6.6
2014 Okafor - Duke, 17.3
2013 Wiggins - Kansas 17.1
2012 Muhammad - UCLA, 17.9
2011 Rivers - Duke, 15.5
2010 Selby - Kansas 7.9
2009 Wall - Kentucky, 16.6
2008 Mullens - Ohio State, 8.8
2007 Beasley - Kansas State, 26.2

#106
2016 Young - Texas, 3.7
2015 Wade - Kansas State, 9.9/9.3
2014 Nickens - Maryland, 6.1/5.4/3.1
2013 Smith - Dayton, 3.6/9.2/11.7/13.8
2012 Bolden - Georgia Tech, 7.3/5.4/6.9
2011 Brundidge - Michigan, 2.4/7.5/2.5/10.5 (Detroit after freshman season)
2010 Epps - Pitt (Monroe College)
2009 Thames - Washington State, 4.6/10.1/9.5/17.6
2008 Baciu - Clemson, 2.0/1.3/1.0/4.1
2007 Neysmith - Oklahoma, 0.5/0.1/2.4/0.3

Johnson is our highest ranked recruit at #106. There are players ranked #106 that end up being good eventually, but by my count, only 2 out of the last 10 turned out to be above average D1 players. Conversely, most of the #1's turned out to be very good right out of the box.

Naturally, you have to consider that the #1's didn't stick around very much, but you also have to consider that the good recruiters aren't getting #1 and then getting recruits inferior to #106. They are always getting other really good recruits.

As far as #106 goes, as said, they sometimes turn out to be good players eventually. Having said that, Johnson is our highest ranked freshman recruit in 2 years, and Clergeot is gone, so we can't exactly say that Tubby is building anything here.

The disclaimer stays the same. We do have some hope, we will have to wait to see how the guys play together, but history, common sense and logic dictate that it will be very tough sledding this year and very tough for 2019 unless Tubby pulls a rabbit out of his hat in the 2018 class.

Looks like Skal performed about like the avg 106 recruit (doesn't that prove my point?) & thanks for the predictions......but it's still wins & losses, what actually occurs that determines the success or failure of a coach or player, not predictions, expectations, whining or ratings. I'll wait for results to make a determination & I have confidence that is exactly what the Memphis admin will do in judging Tubby's continued value to the basketball program, just like Tubby's historical results determined his initial contrat value.

For anyone that cares...

Zach Smith was a 1 star guy who averaged 12.1/7.2 RPG last year at Texas Tech. Keenan Evans led the team in scoring at 15.4/game. Both players were rated lower than every recruit we have signed for 2017. I'm not saying we will make it to the dance this year, but each of these guys made good contributions on a team that did.

(05-08-2017 08:59 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 11:56 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 10:21 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 10:15 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 09:59 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  Never said anything about not wanting more talent - I just question the legitimacy of the high school player ratings & pointed out that recent 4 & 5* ranked recruits have underwhelming at Memphis & even at UK. OK, blame the coach but most haven't gone on to be top 100 pros either.

Even you know your argument is ridiculous. You specifically called out Skal who is doing pretty well in the pros. Cal has taken freshmen to deep runs in the NCAA over and over. That alone shows that high ranked players are good to have.

Please, Skal was the #1 ranked player in the country out of high school. He was disappointing at UK & he's a role player in the pros. And what about Adonis Thomas, I think he was ranked #7 out of high school & where is he now? Wins & losses, my friend, everything else is just BS.

I will assume you are joking, but just in case...

Year/Player/Team/PPG by year (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th)
#1
2016 Jackson - Kansas, 16.3
2015 Skal - Kentucky, 6.6
2014 Okafor - Duke, 17.3
2013 Wiggins - Kansas 17.1
2012 Muhammad - UCLA, 17.9
2011 Rivers - Duke, 15.5
2010 Selby - Kansas 7.9
2009 Wall - Kentucky, 16.6
2008 Mullens - Ohio State, 8.8
2007 Beasley - Kansas State, 26.2

#106
2016 Young - Texas, 3.7
2015 Wade - Kansas State, 9.9/9.3
2014 Nickens - Maryland, 6.1/5.4/3.1
2013 Smith - Dayton, 3.6/9.2/11.7/13.8
2012 Bolden - Georgia Tech, 7.3/5.4/6.9
2011 Brundidge - Michigan, 2.4/7.5/2.5/10.5 (Detroit after freshman season)
2010 Epps - Pitt (Monroe College)
2009 Thames - Washington State, 4.6/10.1/9.5/17.6
2008 Baciu - Clemson, 2.0/1.3/1.0/4.1
2007 Neysmith - Oklahoma, 0.5/0.1/2.4/0.3

Johnson is our highest ranked recruit at #106. There are players ranked #106 that end up being good eventually, but by my count, only 2 out of the last 10 turned out to be above average D1 players. Conversely, most of the #1's turned out to be very good right out of the box.

Naturally, you have to consider that the #1's didn't stick around very much, but you also have to consider that the good recruiters aren't getting #1 and then getting recruits inferior to #106. They are always getting other really good recruits.

As far as #106 goes, as said, they sometimes turn out to be good players eventually. Having said that, Johnson is our highest ranked freshman recruit in 2 years, and Clergeot is gone, so we can't exactly say that Tubby is building anything here.

The disclaimer stays the same. We do have some hope, we will have to wait to see how the guys play together, but history, common sense and logic dictate that it will be very tough sledding this year and very tough for 2019 unless Tubby pulls a rabbit out of his hat in the 2018 class.

Looks like Skal performed about like the avg 106 recruit (doesn't that prove my point?) & thanks for the predictions......but it's still wins & losses, what actually occurs that determines the success or failure of a coach or player, not predictions, expectations, whining or ratings. I'll wait for results to make a determination & I have confidence that is exactly what the Memphis admin will do in judging Tubby's continued value to the basketball program, just like Tubby's historical results determined his initial contrat value.

Quote:Looks like Skal performed about like the avg 106 recruit (doesn't that prove my point?) & thanks for the predictions

First Year Averages
#1: 14.1 ppg
#106: 3.9 ppg

You don't seem to have an understanding between the concepts of having your point proven and having your point completely demolished.

(05-08-2017 09:19 AM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  For anyone that cares...

Zach Smith was a 1 star guy who averaged 12.1/7.2 RPG Tubby's last year at Texas Tech. Keenan Evans led the team in scoring at 15.4/game. He also was rated lower than every recruit we have signed for 2017. I'm not saying we will make it to the dance this year, but that team did.

And again, that is why we do have a bit of hope. Tubby has proven that he is able to mold average talent into a team that makes the NCAA tournament every 2nd year and wins one game every 9 years.

If you look at Tubby's time at Texas Tech it is much different than it is here, and the differences are disturbing.

In 2012, the last class signed by the outgoing coach at Texas Tech had eight 3* recruits. The class had talent similar to Johnson, but there were 8 of them, not one of them, and the majority of them were freshmen. The previous coach had stocked up the roster in the same way it was stocked up at Kentucky when Tubby arrived.

Also, let's assume that Tubby does well with players that he can mold and teach over a 4 year period. Right now, we only have 3 players on the roster in Johnson, Nickelberry, and Enoh that are 4 year players. Three years from now they are all that will be left of this year's team. Unless Tubby is able to turn a magic trick with this year's class, 2020 will be a complete rebuild again.

Devaugntah Williams also got 10.8 on the TT team that went to the tournament (2nd on the team in scoring). Also, every 2017 recruit we have landed is rated higher.

(05-08-2017 09:20 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 08:59 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 11:56 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 10:21 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 10:15 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  Even you know your argument is ridiculous. You specifically called out Skal who is doing pretty well in the pros. Cal has taken freshmen to deep runs in the NCAA over and over. That alone shows that high ranked players are good to have.

Please, Skal was the #1 ranked player in the country out of high school. He was disappointing at UK & he's a role player in the pros. And what about Adonis Thomas, I think he was ranked #7 out of high school & where is he now? Wins & losses, my friend, everything else is just BS.

I will assume you are joking, but just in case...

Year/Player/Team/PPG by year (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th)
#1
2016 Jackson - Kansas, 16.3
2015 Skal - Kentucky, 6.6
2014 Okafor - Duke, 17.3
2013 Wiggins - Kansas 17.1
2012 Muhammad - UCLA, 17.9
2011 Rivers - Duke, 15.5
2010 Selby - Kansas 7.9
2009 Wall - Kentucky, 16.6
2008 Mullens - Ohio State, 8.8
2007 Beasley - Kansas State, 26.2

#106
2016 Young - Texas, 3.7
2015 Wade - Kansas State, 9.9/9.3
2014 Nickens - Maryland, 6.1/5.4/3.1
2013 Smith - Dayton, 3.6/9.2/11.7/13.8
2012 Bolden - Georgia Tech, 7.3/5.4/6.9
2011 Brundidge - Michigan, 2.4/7.5/2.5/10.5 (Detroit after freshman season)
2010 Epps - Pitt (Monroe College)
2009 Thames - Washington State, 4.6/10.1/9.5/17.6
2008 Baciu - Clemson, 2.0/1.3/1.0/4.1
2007 Neysmith - Oklahoma, 0.5/0.1/2.4/0.3

Johnson is our highest ranked recruit at #106. There are players ranked #106 that end up being good eventually, but by my count, only 2 out of the last 10 turned out to be above average D1 players. Conversely, most of the #1's turned out to be very good right out of the box.

Naturally, you have to consider that the #1's didn't stick around very much, but you also have to consider that the good recruiters aren't getting #1 and then getting recruits inferior to #106. They are always getting other really good recruits.

As far as #106 goes, as said, they sometimes turn out to be good players eventually. Having said that, Johnson is our highest ranked freshman recruit in 2 years, and Clergeot is gone, so we can't exactly say that Tubby is building anything here.

The disclaimer stays the same. We do have some hope, we will have to wait to see how the guys play together, but history, common sense and logic dictate that it will be very tough sledding this year and very tough for 2019 unless Tubby pulls a rabbit out of his hat in the 2018 class.

Looks like Skal performed about like the avg 106 recruit (doesn't that prove my point?) & thanks for the predictions......but it's still wins & losses, what actually occurs that determines the success or failure of a coach or player, not predictions, expectations, whining or ratings. I'll wait for results to make a determination & I have confidence that is exactly what the Memphis admin will do in judging Tubby's continued value to the basketball program, just like Tubby's historical results determined his initial contrat value.

Quote:Looks like Skal performed about like the avg 106 recruit (doesn't that prove my point?) & thanks for the predictions

First Year Averages
#1: 14.1 ppg
#106: 3.9 ppg

You don't seem to have an understanding between the concepts of having your point proven and having your point completely demolished.

We're talking about Skal - my example of a LOCAL (& local because its the local guys Memphis has historically been able to recruit) who was not as good as rated - 2015 Skal - Kentucky, 6.6 vs stats provided above for 2015 - Wade, Kansas St 9.9 (same yr). Maybe you can now understand context...........but by all means keep on whining, predicting, judging based upon stats & speculation - I'll wait on actual results, it's wins & losses my friend that will be the judge of the coach not a bunch of critical whiners on this forum.

(05-08-2017 09:36 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 09:19 AM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  For anyone that cares...

Zach Smith was a 1 star guy who averaged 12.1/7.2 RPG Tubby's last year at Texas Tech. Keenan Evans led the team in scoring at 15.4/game. He also was rated lower than every recruit we have signed for 2017. I'm not saying we will make it to the dance this year, but that team did.

And again, that is why we do have a bit of hope. Tubby has proven that he is able to mold average talent into a team that makes the NCAA tournament every 2nd year and wins one game every 9 years.

If you look at Tubby's time at Texas Tech it is much different than it is here, and the differences are disturbing.

In 2012, the last class signed by the outgoing coach at Texas Tech had eight 3* recruits. The class had talent similar to Johnson, but there were 8 of them, not one of them, and the majority of them were freshmen. The previous coach had stocked up the roster in the same way it was stocked up at Kentucky when Tubby arrived.

Also, let's assume that Tubby does well with players that he can mold and teach over a 4 year period. Right now, we only have 3 players on the roster in Johnson, Nickelberry, and Enoh that are 4 year players. Three years from now they are all that will be left of this year's team. Unless Tubby is able to turn a magic trick with this year's class, 2020 will be a complete rebuild again.

Sorry, I don't follow. Per 247, Tech signed 3 guys in 2012. Tubby's class from 2014 had 7 guys (6 of them were rated lower than every recruit we signed). Five of the players from that class averaged 8.5 PPG or more in 2015.

(05-08-2017 09:42 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 09:20 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 08:59 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 11:56 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 10:21 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  Please, Skal was the #1 ranked player in the country out of high school. He was disappointing at UK & he's a role player in the pros. And what about Adonis Thomas, I think he was ranked #7 out of high school & where is he now? Wins & losses, my friend, everything else is just BS.

I will assume you are joking, but just in case...

Year/Player/Team/PPG by year (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th)
#1
2016 Jackson - Kansas, 16.3
2015 Skal - Kentucky, 6.6
2014 Okafor - Duke, 17.3
2013 Wiggins - Kansas 17.1
2012 Muhammad - UCLA, 17.9
2011 Rivers - Duke, 15.5
2010 Selby - Kansas 7.9
2009 Wall - Kentucky, 16.6
2008 Mullens - Ohio State, 8.8
2007 Beasley - Kansas State, 26.2

#106
2016 Young - Texas, 3.7
2015 Wade - Kansas State, 9.9/9.3
2014 Nickens - Maryland, 6.1/5.4/3.1
2013 Smith - Dayton, 3.6/9.2/11.7/13.8
2012 Bolden - Georgia Tech, 7.3/5.4/6.9
2011 Brundidge - Michigan, 2.4/7.5/2.5/10.5 (Detroit after freshman season)
2010 Epps - Pitt (Monroe College)
2009 Thames - Washington State, 4.6/10.1/9.5/17.6
2008 Baciu - Clemson, 2.0/1.3/1.0/4.1
2007 Neysmith - Oklahoma, 0.5/0.1/2.4/0.3

Johnson is our highest ranked recruit at #106. There are players ranked #106 that end up being good eventually, but by my count, only 2 out of the last 10 turned out to be above average D1 players. Conversely, most of the #1's turned out to be very good right out of the box.

Naturally, you have to consider that the #1's didn't stick around very much, but you also have to consider that the good recruiters aren't getting #1 and then getting recruits inferior to #106. They are always getting other really good recruits.

As far as #106 goes, as said, they sometimes turn out to be good players eventually. Having said that, Johnson is our highest ranked freshman recruit in 2 years, and Clergeot is gone, so we can't exactly say that Tubby is building anything here.

The disclaimer stays the same. We do have some hope, we will have to wait to see how the guys play together, but history, common sense and logic dictate that it will be very tough sledding this year and very tough for 2019 unless Tubby pulls a rabbit out of his hat in the 2018 class.

Looks like Skal performed about like the avg 106 recruit (doesn't that prove my point?) & thanks for the predictions......but it's still wins & losses, what actually occurs that determines the success or failure of a coach or player, not predictions, expectations, whining or ratings. I'll wait for results to make a determination & I have confidence that is exactly what the Memphis admin will do in judging Tubby's continued value to the basketball program, just like Tubby's historical results determined his initial contrat value.

Quote:Looks like Skal performed about like the avg 106 recruit (doesn't that prove my point?) & thanks for the predictions

First Year Averages
#1: 14.1 ppg
#106: 3.9 ppg

You don't seem to have an understanding between the concepts of having your point proven and having your point completely demolished.

We're talking about Skal - my example of a LOCAL (& local because its the local guys Memphis has historically been able to recruit) who was not as good as rated - 2015 Skal - Kentucky, 6.6 vs stats provided above for 2015 - Wade, Kansas St 9.9 (same yr). Maybe you can now understand context...........but by all means keep on whining, predicting, judging based upon stats & speculation - I'll wait on actual results, it's wins & losses my friend that will be the judge of the coach not a bunch of critical whiners on this forum.

This makes no sense on any level. First, Tubby has only signed one local, in Rivers. Second, there are no locals in the top 50 of the 2018 class, third, if you want context, Tubby doesn't have a single player on the roster in the top 100, this year's class isn't even in the top 50, AND the roster only has 3 players that are freshmen.

Again, if you want to go with context; Tubby inherited a roster stocked with 3* players at Texas Tech. Compare that with year two at Memphis where he has only 4 players on the entire roster with more than 2 years of eligibility, and only 1 player on the roster that was here 2 years ago.

You don't seem to understand how things work. It isn't whining when Tubby's 2016 class is gone, so rank it #300, his class this year isn't top 50 and is loaded with players that won't be here after 2 years, and he hasn't recruited a point guard, power forward or center.

(05-08-2017 09:52 AM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 09:36 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 09:19 AM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  For anyone that cares...

Zach Smith was a 1 star guy who averaged 12.1/7.2 RPG Tubby's last year at Texas Tech. Keenan Evans led the team in scoring at 15.4/game. He also was rated lower than every recruit we have signed for 2017. I'm not saying we will make it to the dance this year, but that team did.

And again, that is why we do have a bit of hope. Tubby has proven that he is able to mold average talent into a team that makes the NCAA tournament every 2nd year and wins one game every 9 years.

If you look at Tubby's time at Texas Tech it is much different than it is here, and the differences are disturbing.

In 2012, the last class signed by the outgoing coach at Texas Tech had eight 3* recruits. The class had talent similar to Johnson, but there were 8 of them, not one of them, and the majority of them were freshmen. The previous coach had stocked up the roster in the same way it was stocked up at Kentucky when Tubby arrived.

Also, let's assume that Tubby does well with players that he can mold and teach over a 4 year period. Right now, we only have 3 players on the roster in Johnson, Nickelberry, and Enoh that are 4 year players. Three years from now they are all that will be left of this year's team. Unless Tubby is able to turn a magic trick with this year's class, 2020 will be a complete rebuild again.

Sorry, I don't follow. Per 247, Tech signed 3 guys in 2012. Tubby's class from 2014 had 7 guys (6 of them were rated lower than every recruit we signed). Five of the players from that class averaged 8.5 PPG or more in 2015.

Here is the link from Rivals, which is Texas Tech's 2012 class, which means that they started play the 2012-2013 season. Tubby took the job in April 2013.

Some of our recruits are going to stand out merely because someone has to score if we are going to score 70-75 points per game. If we were adding a few new pieces to established D1 players it would seem more likely that we can have a good season. When every player is new and none of them are highly ranked and none of them have D1 experience, it doesn't seem likely that we are going to be successful.

If the entire class was comprised of freshman, I would be closer to being on board with Tubby, because in two years time we would have experience and all of the players would be coming back. Instead we have a lot of players (Martin, Rivers, Brewton, Thornton, Parks) that aren't going to be around 3 years from now.

Oh, and Saul.

Texas Tech 2012 Recruiting Class

(05-08-2017 10:04 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 09:52 AM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 09:36 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 09:19 AM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  For anyone that cares...

Zach Smith was a 1 star guy who averaged 12.1/7.2 RPG Tubby's last year at Texas Tech. Keenan Evans led the team in scoring at 15.4/game. He also was rated lower than every recruit we have signed for 2017. I'm not saying we will make it to the dance this year, but that team did.

And again, that is why we do have a bit of hope. Tubby has proven that he is able to mold average talent into a team that makes the NCAA tournament every 2nd year and wins one game every 9 years.

If you look at Tubby's time at Texas Tech it is much different than it is here, and the differences are disturbing.

In 2012, the last class signed by the outgoing coach at Texas Tech had eight 3* recruits. The class had talent similar to Johnson, but there were 8 of them, not one of them, and the majority of them were freshmen. The previous coach had stocked up the roster in the same way it was stocked up at Kentucky when Tubby arrived.

Also, let's assume that Tubby does well with players that he can mold and teach over a 4 year period. Right now, we only have 3 players on the roster in Johnson, Nickelberry, and Enoh that are 4 year players. Three years from now they are all that will be left of this year's team. Unless Tubby is able to turn a magic trick with this year's class, 2020 will be a complete rebuild again.

Sorry, I don't follow. Per 247, Tech signed 3 guys in 2012. Tubby's class from 2014 had 7 guys (6 of them were rated lower than every recruit we signed). Five of the players from that class averaged 8.5 PPG or more in 2015.

Here is the link from Rivals, which is Texas Tech's 2012 class, which means that they started play the 2012-2013 season. Tubby took the job in April 2013.

Some of our recruits are going to stand out merely because someone has to score if we are going to score 70-75 points per game. If we were adding a few new pieces to established D1 players it would seem more likely that we can have a good season. When every player is new and none of them are highly ranked and none of them have D1 experience, it doesn't seem likely that we are going to be successful.

If the entire class was comprised of freshman, I would be closer to being on board with Tubby, because in two years time we would have experience and all of the players would be coming back. Instead we have a lot of players (Martin, Rivers, Brewton, Thornton, Parks) that aren't going to be around 3 years from now.

Oh, and Saul.

Texas Tech 2012 Recruiting Class

Interesting...if I cared more I would see what happened with those guys (and why 247 shows something different). Either way, most of the guys from that class weren't on the team in 2015. Maybe Tubby cleaned house or some of them decommitted/transferred? Not sure.

PG Josh Gray transferred out...ended up at LSU.
Trency Jackson transferred to WKU.
Wanaah Bail ended up at UCLA.
Michael Carey ended up at Wagner.
Rodrigo Silva signed a pro contract in Brazil. Never played for Tech.
Daylen Robinson played 1 year at Tech.
Dusty Hannahs transferred to Arkansas.

(05-08-2017 09:57 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 09:42 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 09:20 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 08:59 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-07-2017 11:56 PM)Stammers Wrote:  I will assume you are joking, but just in case...

Year/Player/Team/PPG by year (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th)
#1
2016 Jackson - Kansas, 16.3
2015 Skal - Kentucky, 6.6
2014 Okafor - Duke, 17.3
2013 Wiggins - Kansas 17.1
2012 Muhammad - UCLA, 17.9
2011 Rivers - Duke, 15.5
2010 Selby - Kansas 7.9
2009 Wall - Kentucky, 16.6
2008 Mullens - Ohio State, 8.8
2007 Beasley - Kansas State, 26.2

#106
2016 Young - Texas, 3.7
2015 Wade - Kansas State, 9.9/9.3
2014 Nickens - Maryland, 6.1/5.4/3.1
2013 Smith - Dayton, 3.6/9.2/11.7/13.8
2012 Bolden - Georgia Tech, 7.3/5.4/6.9
2011 Brundidge - Michigan, 2.4/7.5/2.5/10.5 (Detroit after freshman season)
2010 Epps - Pitt (Monroe College)
2009 Thames - Washington State, 4.6/10.1/9.5/17.6
2008 Baciu - Clemson, 2.0/1.3/1.0/4.1
2007 Neysmith - Oklahoma, 0.5/0.1/2.4/0.3

Johnson is our highest ranked recruit at #106. There are players ranked #106 that end up being good eventually, but by my count, only 2 out of the last 10 turned out to be above average D1 players. Conversely, most of the #1's turned out to be very good right out of the box.

Naturally, you have to consider that the #1's didn't stick around very much, but you also have to consider that the good recruiters aren't getting #1 and then getting recruits inferior to #106. They are always getting other really good recruits.

As far as #106 goes, as said, they sometimes turn out to be good players eventually. Having said that, Johnson is our highest ranked freshman recruit in 2 years, and Clergeot is gone, so we can't exactly say that Tubby is building anything here.

The disclaimer stays the same. We do have some hope, we will have to wait to see how the guys play together, but history, common sense and logic dictate that it will be very tough sledding this year and very tough for 2019 unless Tubby pulls a rabbit out of his hat in the 2018 class.

Looks like Skal performed about like the avg 106 recruit (doesn't that prove my point?) & thanks for the predictions......but it's still wins & losses, what actually occurs that determines the success or failure of a coach or player, not predictions, expectations, whining or ratings. I'll wait for results to make a determination & I have confidence that is exactly what the Memphis admin will do in judging Tubby's continued value to the basketball program, just like Tubby's historical results determined his initial contrat value.

Quote:Looks like Skal performed about like the avg 106 recruit (doesn't that prove my point?) & thanks for the predictions

First Year Averages
#1: 14.1 ppg
#106: 3.9 ppg

You don't seem to have an understanding between the concepts of having your point proven and having your point completely demolished.

We're talking about Skal - my example of a LOCAL (& local because its the local guys Memphis has historically been able to recruit) who was not as good as rated - 2015 Skal - Kentucky, 6.6 vs stats provided above for 2015 - Wade, Kansas St 9.9 (same yr). Maybe you can now understand context...........but by all means keep on whining, predicting, judging based upon stats & speculation - I'll wait on actual results, it's wins & losses my friend that will be the judge of the coach not a bunch of critical whiners on this forum.

This makes no sense on any level. First, Tubby has only signed one local, in Rivers. Second, there are no locals in the top 50 of the 2018 class, third, if you want context, Tubby doesn't have a single player on the roster in the top 100, this year's class isn't even in the top 50, AND the roster only has 3 players that are freshmen.

Again, if you want to go with context; Tubby inherited a roster stocked with 3* players at Texas Tech. Compare that with year two at Memphis where he has only 4 players on the entire roster with more than 2 years of eligibility, and only 1 player on the roster that was here 2 years ago.

You don't seem to understand how things work. It isn't whining when Tubby's 2016 class is gone, so rank it #300, his class this year isn't top 50 and is loaded with players that won't be here after 2 years, and he hasn't recruited a point guard, power forward or center.

JP signed Rivers not Tubby.......Tubby has been at Memphis one season. And context is related to the post not some context you invent to deflect from the LOCAL aspect of recruits who don't live up to expectations driven by ratings. I used #1 rated Skal @ 6.6 vs the 106 rated recruit nationwide from the same year who exceeded Skal's production by 50%. I didn't choose the stats just point out how they support my contention that ratings have been especially wrong about local Memphis area recruits & therefore should not be the basis of judgement about the prospects of the Memphis program. Instead it should be & IS wins & losses.

So there you go...247 actually shows the players that stayed at Tech (at least their first year). A more accurate representation of what happened in real life. Only 1 player was left in 2015 from that 2012 class.

See updated post above...most of that class transferred out.

(05-08-2017 10:11 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 09:57 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 09:42 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 09:20 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-08-2017 08:59 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  Looks like Skal performed about like the avg 106 recruit (doesn't that prove my point?) & thanks for the predictions......but it's still wins & losses, what actually occurs that determines the success or failure of a coach or player, not predictions, expectations, whining or ratings. I'll wait for results to make a determination & I have confidence that is exactly what the Memphis admin will do in judging Tubby's continued value to the basketball program, just like Tubby's historical results determined his initial contrat value.

Quote:Looks like Skal performed about like the avg 106 recruit (doesn't that prove my point?) & thanks for the predictions

First Year Averages
#1: 14.1 ppg
#106: 3.9 ppg

You don't seem to have an understanding between the concepts of having your point proven and having your point completely demolished.

We're talking about Skal - my example of a LOCAL (& local because its the local guys Memphis has historically been able to recruit) who was not as good as rated - 2015 Skal - Kentucky, 6.6 vs stats provided above for 2015 - Wade, Kansas St 9.9 (same yr). Maybe you can now understand context...........but by all means keep on whining, predicting, judging based upon stats & speculation - I'll wait on actual results, it's wins & losses my friend that will be the judge of the coach not a bunch of critical whiners on this forum.

This makes no sense on any level. First, Tubby has only signed one local, in Rivers. Second, there are no locals in the top 50 of the 2018 class, third, if you want context, Tubby doesn't have a single player on the roster in the top 100, this year's class isn't even in the top 50, AND the roster only has 3 players that are freshmen.

Again, if you want to go with context; Tubby inherited a roster stocked with 3* players at Texas Tech. Compare that with year two at Memphis where he has only 4 players on the entire roster with more than 2 years of eligibility, and only 1 player on the roster that was here 2 years ago.

You don't seem to understand how things work. It isn't whining when Tubby's 2016 class is gone, so rank it #300, his class this year isn't top 50 and is loaded with players that won't be here after 2 years, and he hasn't recruited a point guard, power forward or center.

JP signed Rivers not Tubby.......Tubby has been at Memphis one season. And context is related to the post not some context you invent to deflect from the LOCAL aspect of recruits who don't live up to expectations driven by ratings. I used #1 rated Skal @ 6.6 vs the 106 rated recruit nationwide from the same year who exceeded Skal's production by 50%. I didn't choose the stats just point out how they support my contention that ratings have been especially wrong about local Memphis area recruits & therefore should not be the basis of judgement about the prospects of the Memphis program. Instead it should be & IS wins & losses.

You still aren't making any sense. This is Tubby's 2nd recruiting class, so. By this time Cal and Pastner were off and running. You use one example from one year to cough...cough..."prove" your point? At 6.6 points per game, Skal nearly doubled the average production of the last 10 recruits at #106.

If you look at historical numbers over the last 10 years, Memphis recruits have generally performed quite well based on their star ranking, so again, what you are saying makes no sense.

5*
Skal
Joe Jackson
Shawne Williams
Jarnell Stokes
Thad Young
Elliott Williams
Adonis
JP Prince
Dedric

4*
Lagerald Vick
Mo Miller
Tarik Black
Willie Kemp
Reginald Buckner
Jalen Fisher
Newby
Chiozza
Nick King
Markel
Derrick Byars
Jonathan Williams III
Chris Crawford
Leslie McDonald

3*
Jeremiah Martin
CJ Anderson
Nino Johnson
Randy Culpepper
Terrico White
Chris Jones
Andre Allen
Cameron Payne
Andre Hollins
Austin Hollins
Cromwell
Ferrakohn Hall
Jason Jones

Lots of hits and misses which is obviously typical, but overall, Memphis recruits have had good careers. It remains to be seen what will happen, but Tubby is obviously setting himself up for failure with poor recruiting and hiring Saul.