http://theclemsoninsider.com/2017/04/26/...all-camps/

Quote:When the NCAA Division I Council adopted its new recruiting model on April 14, Clemson head coach Dabo Swinney was not overly pleased, especially when it came to the part of the rule that prohibits high school coaches from working summer football camps and attending football clinics at colleges if a prospect from his high school is being recruited by that college.

Quote:Unlike most camps that are just glorified scouting combines with 40 times, broad jumps and vertical jumps, Swinney’s summer football camps work on teaching the campers the fundamentals of the game so the young man who came to camp can use the skills he is taught to become a better football player.

This is the reason why Swinney’s camps are among the most attended in the country. Last year, Clemson had more than 4,000 campers from first grade through 12th grade come through Swinney’s camps and that number is supposed to be even bigger this year.

Quote:Because Swinney’s camps are coaching kids, he wants football coaches running his camps. With all the high school and small college coaches looking for work in the summer to make extra money that has not been a problem in years past. But with the new rule preventing high school coaches from coaching if one of their players is a Clemson prospect, Swinney has to adjust so they can find ways of getting football coaches to work the camps.

“We are going to hire as many college coaches we can find and college staffs that we can find,” he said. “We have been in touch with a lot of lower level college staffs. We obviously have an enormous amount of prospects that come through our camps. You have seen that.

“Now, they are not all going to come to Clemson, but our big thing is we want to get guys better and help them be better prepared to go have a great season for their respective teams. I want to help these guys be the best they can be, but also help create opportunities for them. We have always had a lot of college coaches there just to give them a chance to scout a lot of these guys.”

Swinney will also try to fill the void by using some of his players. The NCAA passed a rule a few years back that allows current players to work the camps and receive compensation for their work. The only issue they run into with the players is their class schedules due to the fact a lot of them are in school during the summer.

Seems like another rule that is virtually impossible to enforce.

(04-27-2017 03:54 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Seems like another rule that is virtually impossible to enforce.

I dunno about the enforcement but it is a rule that accomplishes absolutely nothing except help restrain the financial and career advancement of high school coaches.

Terrible rule. Terrible for coaches, terrible for kids.

How many kids get rides to these camps with coaches? It not only limits their exposure and opportunity for scholarships, but it deprives them of the coaching they receive at camps. Many kids will not be able to make the trips with their coaches not working the camps.

One more rule where they're trying to punish the "haves" and the ones that get hurt the most are the kids.

Unless I'm mistaken, college teams can still hire high school coaches -- as long as that team isn't recruiting a player from that same high school.

(or am I mistaken?)

(05-01-2017 06:48 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Unless I'm mistaken, college teams can still hire high school coaches -- as long as that team isn't recruiting a player from that same high school.

(or am I mistaken?)

For two years. So let's say that Fuente hires a coach from a Tidewater HS for a position opening. Then the year after that same high school has a kid blow up in his senior year and turn into a consensus HS All American. Virginia Tech would be unable to recruit him.

It also prevents schools from bringing in high school coaches to work camps where not only are they able to advance their financial positions, but in effect serve as auditions. Granted he was a FCS coach but one of the primary reasons that Todd Bates was hired as Clemson's DL coach is because he caught Dabo's eye working Clemson's camp.

http://www.independentmail.com/story/spo.../97014534/

Quote:Clemson coach Dabo Swinney said Tuesday that Bates caught his eye – as well as that of former Clemson defensive tackles coach Dan Brooks — while coaching at Swinney’s summer football camp in recent years.

"I remember one of the camp days Coach Brooks came to me and said, 'Todd Bates is the best coach we have out here,'" Swinney said. "I have been following his career closely."

Now the NCAA has removed that chance for high school coaches to solve a problem that didn't really exist in any significant manner.

(05-01-2017 06:48 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Unless I'm mistaken, college teams can still hire high school coaches -- as long as that team isn't recruiting a player from that same high school.

(or am I mistaken?)

I believe you are correct. This just stops teams from hiring a recruits coach in an attempt to get an advantage.

(05-01-2017 09:01 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 06:48 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Unless I'm mistaken, college teams can still hire high school coaches -- as long as that team isn't recruiting a player from that same high school.

(or am I mistaken?)

I believe you are correct. This just stops teams from hiring a recruits coach in an attempt to get an advantage.

And how much was that actually happening?

It's a solution seeking a problem.

(05-01-2017 09:01 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 06:48 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Unless I'm mistaken, college teams can still hire high school coaches -- as long as that team isn't recruiting a player from that same high school.

(or am I mistaken?)

I believe you are correct. This just stops teams from hiring a recruits coach in an attempt to get an advantage.

There IS no good solution. Do nothing and teams will keep hiring HS coaches just to get at the kids... to Kap's point, maybe they went too far in trying to address that problem? Dishonesty stinks and there's no easy fix for it.

(05-01-2017 09:01 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 06:48 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Unless I'm mistaken, college teams can still hire high school coaches -- as long as that team isn't recruiting a player from that same high school.

(or am I mistaken?)

I believe you are correct. This just stops teams from hiring a recruits coach in an attempt to get an advantage.

To what end though? An even playing field?

When Texas has $160M a year and 100k per game, and Toledo has $35M a year and 20k a game, what is the point of this? It's not cheating, it's some misguided attempt to pretend that the NCAA can somehow legislate a level playing field, which is absurd. It's like putting a limit on how much somebody can spend on a car or how big a house you are allowed to buy.

You hurt the coach, you hurt the kid, all in the name of a total fantasy world where programs don't have an advantage over one another.

Why don't they just cap stadium size? Or say that Syracuse can't offer journalism majors to it's athletes who want to go into journalism because it's program is too prestigious and gives it an unfair advantage over schools with mediocre journalism programs.

(05-05-2017 09:06 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 09:01 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 06:48 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Unless I'm mistaken, college teams can still hire high school coaches -- as long as that team isn't recruiting a player from that same high school.

(or am I mistaken?)

I believe you are correct. This just stops teams from hiring a recruits coach in an attempt to get an advantage.

To what end though? An even playing field?

When Texas has $160M a year and 100k per game, and Toledo has $35M a year and 20k a game, what is the point of this? It's not cheating, it's some misguided attempt to pretend that the NCAA can somehow legislate a level playing field, which is absurd. It's like putting a limit on how much somebody can spend on a car or how big a house you are allowed to buy.

You hurt the coach, you hurt the kid, all in the name of a total fantasy world where programs don't have an advantage over one another.

Why don't they just cap stadium size? Or say that Syracuse can't offer journalism majors to it's athletes who want to go into journalism because it's program is too prestigious and gives it an unfair advantage over schools with mediocre journalism programs.

That's not exactly an apples to apples argument. Hiring a coach to gain the favor of a recruit or recruits isn't the same as stadium size or courses offered. I would say that this would hurt the smaller schools more often as they would try to do this to get an advantage over a larger school. How many high schools & coaches are there in a state? The larger schools can afford to hire coaches further along on the coaching ladder which would lead to a more productive camp.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with allowing colleges to hire high school coaches. Is it sleazy when they are just doing it to recruit a player? Yes, but as Lou points out, it may be impossible to fix via rules.

The thing I DO have a problem with is hiring the kids parents.

(05-05-2017 10:17 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Personally I wouldn't have a problem with allowing colleges to hire high school coaches. Is it sleazy when they are just doing it to recruit a player? Yes, but as Lou points out, it may be impossible to fix via rules.

The thing I DO have a problem with is hiring the kids parents.

I concur. It just seems to me though that it hurts the smaller schools more. I just don't see the need for FSU or Clemson needing to do this to get a recruit. It could temporarily prevent them from hiring a qualified high school coach at worst.

(05-05-2017 09:38 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  

(05-05-2017 09:06 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 09:01 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  

(05-01-2017 06:48 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Unless I'm mistaken, college teams can still hire high school coaches -- as long as that team isn't recruiting a player from that same high school.

(or am I mistaken?)

I believe you are correct. This just stops teams from hiring a recruits coach in an attempt to get an advantage.

To what end though? An even playing field?

When Texas has $160M a year and 100k per game, and Toledo has $35M a year and 20k a game, what is the point of this? It's not cheating, it's some misguided attempt to pretend that the NCAA can somehow legislate a level playing field, which is absurd. It's like putting a limit on how much somebody can spend on a car or how big a house you are allowed to buy.

You hurt the coach, you hurt the kid, all in the name of a total fantasy world where programs don't have an advantage over one another.

Why don't they just cap stadium size? Or say that Syracuse can't offer journalism majors to it's athletes who want to go into journalism because it's program is too prestigious and gives it an unfair advantage over schools with mediocre journalism programs.

That's not exactly an apples to apples argument. Hiring a coach to gain the favor of a recruit or recruits isn't the same as stadium size or courses offered. I would say that this would hurt the smaller schools more often as they would try to do this to get an advantage over a larger school. How many high schools & coaches are there in a state? The larger schools can afford to hire coaches further along on the coaching ladder which would lead to a more productive camp.

Of course it affects the smaller schools. Just like everything else. Having a smaller stadium hurts smaller schools. Being able to hire less experienced and proven strength and conditioning staff. Having a part time nutritionist instead of a department of six full time nutritionists. Having older, more outdated weight training. Not having an indoor football facility.

Honestly, the list is almost literally inexhaustible, the advantage that bigger, richer programs have over smaller, less funded programs.

Putting in a rule that will result in fewer opportunities for players to be seen, decrease the quality of instruction they get in camp, reduce the quality of instruction they get in high school because their coaches can't work these camps, reduce the upward mobility of high school coaches...the list of losers go on and on.

And for what? To somehow pretend you're keeping Clemson and Florida International on the same equal footing?

I get when those "equal playing field" rules are in place that merely inconvenience the larger schools. I don't care that there's a limit of one visit for school on official visits or whatever so one school can't take all of a kid's official visits, for example. Even if those rules are mostly much more for show than have any leveling effect.

But I do get worked up when the rule demonstrably and significantly hurts others (kids and high school coaches) like this high school coaches ban for camps does.