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Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
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msm96wolf Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
Just to be Devil's advocate, bowls drawer more viewers than basketball games. Basically every bowl is played with minimal competition from another bowl. That would be difficult for CFP with 8 teams. The NFL is still playing so you can't have the weekend for the 8 teams. It does not break down as easy as that. However, while I think the top 4 teams work best, I could see a scenario to expand to 6 teams. Where 3 vs 6 and 4 vs 5 would be played the week prior to the play off, typically G5 bowl weekend. Perfect opportunity for Vegas, San Fran, and Orlando, Tampa could vye to host these Semi-Finals. It would be done in 2020, when the bowl tie-ins will be redone.

The downside, CFP will take the top 6 teams not be p5 champs and G5 Champ. CFP figured out the best way to avoid the BCS anti-trust issue saying the best teams not the conference champ. With OSU and PSU last year, it only strenghtens that arguement. Thus basically killing those g5 bowl games for that weekend. If any bowls move to the slot from post Christmas, be sure that those P5 vs P5 matchups would be filled with a bowl moving to post Christmas. Say Charlotte moves to semi weekend, lets say Frisco Bowl now becomes SEC vs ACC for those teams. Less G5 teams will have bowls. There is a chance for a G5 to make the top 8 but it will still have to go undefeated. Using the rankings from last year

Bama and Clemson get byes
OSU vs Michigan
Washington vs PSU

CFP bowls
Wisc vs USC Rose
FSU vs LSU Orange
Auburn vs Ok Sugar
Colorado vs WMU Cotton

While I would love to see the P5 make even more money and further seperate from the G5 conferences and/or a mythical disillusioned P6 conference, the G5 may reqret getting their wish to come true.
04-28-2017 11:26 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 11:17 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The networks were interested in a another CFP game that featured G5 participants---they just were not interested to the tune of 40 million a year.

That's like saying that the Honda Civic is a nice car, but if they slap a sticker price of $100,000 on it, then I'm never going to buy one. I don't hate the car, and I'm not part of a conspiracy against Honda. I just think it's worth $20,000 and not $100,000.
04-28-2017 11:33 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 08:19 AM)orangefan Wrote:  Time to look at the recent news at ESPN from another angle. As I've stated elsewhere, while ESPN remains an extremely profitable company, it has reached a stage where those profits aren't growing anymore. Disney's success as a company over the past several years (it has nearly tripled in value over the past 5 years) has been built on growth, and ESPN has been a major part of that.

One of the biggest factors pressing ESPN's profitability is the rising costs of rights fees. It's four biggest contracts are with the NFL ($1.9 billion/year), NBA ($1.4 billion/year), MLB ($700 million/year) and CFP/NY6 ($608 million/year). As these contracts come up again, there will be significant pressure to hold the line on the price paid or even reduce the payouts.

This problem is compounded for the CFP/NY6 because ratings have been short of expectations. To date, the ratings of many of the non-playoff NY6 bowls have been disappointing. The non-playoff Sugar Bowl has been a complete disaster ratings wise. Non-playoff Rose Bowl ratings are also down from the BCS era, likely because the game becomes anticlimactic with the semis having been completed. The attempt to play a noon NY6 game on New Year's Eve drew dismal ratings. The ratings of the semifinals played on New Year's Eve have also been disappointing, leading to a rescheduling of these to the Saturday before New Year's Day in many years.

Given these factors, if nothing changes, ESPN would almost certainly be looking to hold the line or even cut the payouts to the CFP when the contract next comes up in 8 years. However, sports organizations always like to see growth in rights fees as they move forward. Fortunately the CFP has an alternative to counteract this problem - expand the CFP to an 8 team format. I'm not saying this is good or bad, it is simply reality, and recent events at ESPN make it more likely to happen.

I sure hope so.
04-28-2017 11:33 AM
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Carolina_Low_Country Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 09:44 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 09:14 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  It cements what we know about college athletics: it moves when the money's better for the right players.

This is one of those situations where a fan like me would get what he'd want to see (an expanded playoff pool), but done in a way that totally exposes the sham of the operation.

We all know this stuff should be like what's there in FCS and the NCAA tournament. A defined field with AQ and all that. But, it isn't. Done under the cloak of autonomy, freedom, whatever bull**** hyperbole or abstract you want to call it, this is a good ole boys club of about 50-60 major programs, a couple of old bowls, and the racket they pull with media partners to make sure they all control the product. It's textbook anti-trust material, but, what are you going to do?

Do the ends justify the means? I mean, while it may be an easy "yes" to some...couldn't this be the sort of line in the sand where someone says enough to the whole structure and sues to recoup or break up the shell game? I might wait a lifetime, and may never see the governments come back at this structure and force schools to pony up on taxes. I may expire, but the argument won't. And this brings it closer, if even a fraction of an inch on a track that spans miles.

Where you see textbook anti-trust material, I see a free market at work. I suppose if I were a fan of a G5 school or conference, I might prefer that someone intervene to give me a bigger slice of the pie than that market wants to give me.

I don't see that desire to be much different than someone insisting that actors in B-movies be given more starring roles in major motion pictures. If the public prefers watching Meryl Streep or Tom Hanks instead of Bruce Campbell, what's wrong (or unjust) about that?

Why should FBS football be like FCS football, or basketball? "Should" has nothing to do with this. There is no "should" in the entertainment business.

I think we should be careful what we wish for. An expanded playoff isn't going to help the little guys of the college football world. At the end of the day, it will mean that ESPN will pay less than they do now, and that reduction in pay is going to come out of the pockets of the little guys. They will get less money and less exposure than they do today. The gravy train is slowing down.

I believe in free market however in a free market everyone has access to the free market. I could care less about the money from tv revenue etc. what I want to be able to do is win my conference and make a playoff and have a shot at a national championship.

The reason why G5s want more money now is to compete with recruits with facilities since they technically have very little shot at a national championship. I want a 16 team playoff with every conference champ and six at larges, I would compromise for a 8 team playoff with P5 champions, best G5 champion, and two at large.
04-28-2017 11:33 AM
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Post: #25
Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 11:21 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 10:13 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  So ken d, are you happy that college football has moved to eliminate half of FBS teams from a fighting chance for a championship
You have your own p5 championship because of espn
Remember that little school called Miami?, they had no real football success until they tried, but in today's world you seem to be happy to eliminate this fighting chance.
So my question to you ken d is, are you happy ?

I am...

Let's face it, there are A LOT of schools... UMass, Idaho, and sometimes whole conferences...that moved up to "FBS" solely for the paycheck and have NO...absolutely NO...business playing major college football. Honestly, there ought to be a cap on FBS and the proliferation on FBS teams has hurt the sport.

Now where that cap-line is drawn is the real area of debate. Right now, my favorite team is on the wrong-side of that cap-line, but I'll be honest...UC has often made poor decisions over the years that has led to them being shut-out of the "Power" football conferences. It was often said of UC that they functioned with a "MAC mindset" when it came to athletics and that, sadly, contributed to UC being relegated to the AAC. And it probably is too late to do anything to fix that.

But yes... I don't care to watch a "F_U" playing some directional Louisiana school in FB. It's great fun for "The Waterboy" but in real life, not so much.

I agree with about half what you say
Houston in the past has made bad decisions regarding athletics, but this should not mean we should be told that we can never play for a championship, it's not about who gets the most money, it's about being able to play for the whole kit and ka bodal
04-28-2017 11:34 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 11:17 AM)JRsec Wrote:  It's a matter of perception based on the aspect in focus. When you look at it from a college sports perspective you are looking at a trailing aspect rather than a leading one. And the focus is too defined to see the impetus for this trailing trend.

The impetus is enrollment. It's contributing factors are the broader economy, the erosion of state sales tax bases due to that economy and deals they have cut to attract jobs, and the mechanization of the work force. There are many other contributing factors but these are among some of the most recognized.

Then factor in a birthrate among the middle class that is past peak and is waning.

State Flagship schools are dropping enrollment standards (not a lot but by increments) increasing enrollment through decreased tuition, or increased scholarships, or by the creation of zones beyond the state where out of state tuition will not be charged, and they are expanding available campus and off campus housing in preparation for what most states recognize as a necessity, cuts in higher education appropriations.

The total number of colleges and universities that we have were a direct beneficiary of the Baby Boom and the GI Bill. Single function colleges (teacher's colleges for the most part) blossomed into universities. Jr Colleges sprang up everywhere to make attending easier for applicants with either the inability to leave a smaller community for higher education or who had obligations to stay in a smaller community.

There was a retraction in this growth in between the education of returning WWII vets on the GI Bill, and the matriculation of the Boomers. There was a retraction after the Boomers and the matriculation of their children. Now we face a protracted retraction. The Boomers and their echo have passed. The echo of the Boomer's children's children (which will grow ever smaller) will have very little impact on the trends at hand. They will be less financially able to afford higher education partially because of inflation, partially because of the erosion of inheritances to end of life care and taxes, and mostly because most forms of labor (which is in abundant supply) are subject to supply and demand. Make jobs that cover the cost of a college education less available to the majority of graduates and the trend in higher education goes down, not up. So return on investment in a college education will mean fewer enroll out of fewer total applicants which means the higher education boom that was created when the GI's returned to a grateful nation pursued degrees that prior to the war would never have been pursued, and that they saw it as an obligation to their children to do the same, will no longer be the priority of a totally new generation.

The top 5% of students will still be the best paid professional class of citizens. But those who are craftsmen, or know trades, will be on the upswing. Skill sets, and more importantly the credentialing that says you have them, will become the new diploma to get a job. Those skills could be in communications, graphic arts, or plumbing. They will simply be what the current job market demands.

So with the reality of the current situation at hand States will protect their oldest institutions, combine or close their smallest ones, and redefine the missions their mid sized universities.

It's the natural human emotions over our institutions that lead to the angst. Really it is nothing more than the tide going out and taking with it the flotsam we thought was permanent because it was there for most of our lives.

Since the state focus will be on consolidation, state institutions cut with regard to state funding, and enrollment an issue, the leaders of those institutions who study trends constantly have already made the adjustments they deemed necessary to survive the present conditions.

If you need enrollment you do the things I've already mentioned they are doing including the building projects that seem to be counter productive. But they only seem that way because enrollment is trending down, not because we are considering that they are preparing for the downsizing of higher ed within their states. They are pursuing new revenue streams to make up for cuts in appropriations. FOX and ESPN see this as an opportunity to seized upon. Why? Because it gives them finally an opportunity to organize what had been the sleepy, regional, domain of the conferences. Now that the administrations of these schools are waking up to the need to cover lost funding the mega dollars of television are impossible for them to pass up. The cost is they've lost control over the form and function of their athletics and it has simply become big business and big business throws its weight around in this country.

Consolidation of branding in business lifts the brands involved. In other words place a highly sought product with another that is commonly needed and sales of both go up. The same principle applies to college sports programs. Place a brand with other brands and the demand for both goes up. This isn't a sinister plan of the P schools. It's the sinister plan of the networks and the P schools are the chosen product that has been hijacked from its rightful owners, the citizens of the states they represent.

Somehow we feel devalued when schools we attended or graduated from are demoted in the public perception, and we feel detached if they are closed. It is really an erroneous attachment as your diploma is not worth less, and it doesn't affect who you are. I only say this because more closures are coming. We are just at the beginning of this cycle.

Market forces and now technology are making many jobs obsolete and we aren't talking manual labor, we are talking white collar jobs. Many forms of management are going away. Work as we know it will be radically changed over the next few decades. And in the educated and industrialized world the birth rate proves this. The stress on the environment by overpopulation isn't coming from Europe and the United States. The mass migrations into Europe from Africa and the Middle East is a tell. Every major natural and man made catastrophe has been preceded by such migrations. Man made catastrophes are usually called war and they are almost always fought over resources.

So we will see a much tighter consolidation in Flagship schools, a broader elimination of smaller ones, and a more comprehensive change in the mission of the mid sized ones, before we see anything else. And since realignment is merely a side effect of these trends we will see more consolidation into top brands there as well. But it will be motivated by the pursuit of money and capitalized upon by the networks who will constantly looking for a smaller and better mix of schools and will be restrained only by the need to appease a larger market so eventually they will find the sweet spot in their models.

So if you blame a P school for your problems you are merely abusing a passenger on the Titanic lucky or fortunate enough to have found a lifeboat instead of directing your anger at the Captains who steered us into this iceberg, or the overall class system that had you locked below decks when lifeboats were available, and you are not seeing those schools in the P5 as victims who have nearly lost everything that endeared them to their alumni to an opportunist which places its stipulations on which cheers can be used, how the venues are to be used during games, what logos can go on the walls and where they will be placed, and what overhead they have to spend to get their venues ready for corporate connections for broadcast. It's like the Carpathia said to those in the lifeboats, give me control over your life and we'll pick you up. The ratio is about right too. 2200 went into the water and over 1500 perished. In other words a little less than 1/3rd survived the catastrophe. But the wreck that is realignment is merely the byproduct of forces that are radically altering a much much larger portion of our lives than just sports. And if that doesn't shake us and wake us, we're toast!

Wars are how we humans have always thinned our herds to deal with major changes like the ones you are describing. I may not live to see the next World War, but most of the posters on this forum will. The usual precursors of war have begun in earnest. The biggest of these is the trend toward ultra-nationalism, as evidenced by events like the Brexit vote, the election of Trump, and the collapse of the centrist parties in France. The EEU will be a casualty, and possibly NATO and the United Nations, as we devolve into every country for itself.

Twenty years from now, we will surely wonder why we wasted so much angst on conference realignment and playoffs, and silly labels like P5 and G5.
04-28-2017 11:36 AM
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Huskypride Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 11:34 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 11:21 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 10:13 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  So ken d, are you happy that college football has moved to eliminate half of FBS teams from a fighting chance for a championship
You have your own p5 championship because of espn
Remember that little school called Miami?, they had no real football success until they tried, but in today's world you seem to be happy to eliminate this fighting chance.
So my question to you ken d is, are you happy ?

I am...

Let's face it, there are A LOT of schools... UMass, Idaho, and sometimes whole conferences...that moved up to "FBS" solely for the paycheck and have NO...absolutely NO...business playing major college football. Honestly, there ought to be a cap on FBS and the proliferation on FBS teams has hurt the sport.

Now where that cap-line is drawn is the real area of debate. Right now, my favorite team is on the wrong-side of that cap-line, but I'll be honest...UC has often made poor decisions over the years that has led to them being shut-out of the "Power" football conferences. It was often said of UC that they functioned with a "MAC mindset" when it came to athletics and that, sadly, contributed to UC being relegated to the AAC. And it probably is too late to do anything to fix that.

But yes... I don't care to watch a "F_U" playing some directional Louisiana school in FB. It's great fun for "The Waterboy" but in real life, not so much.

I agree with about half what you say
Houston in the past has made bad decisions regarding athletics, but this should not mean we should be told that we can never play for a championship, it's not about who gets the most money, it's about being able to play for the whole kit and ka bodal

i agree that is what makes the NCAA tourny so great every one has a chance to win it all. The cfp only gives the p5 teams a realistic chance. unless everything falls and line and the a couple of the p5 conference champs are weak a g5 team has no shot at making the playoff even if they have the ooc schedule and the talent.
04-28-2017 11:41 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 11:17 AM)JRsec Wrote:  It's a matter of perception based on the aspect in focus. When you look at it from a college sports perspective you are looking at a trailing aspect rather than a leading one. And the focus is too defined to see the impetus for this trailing trend.

The impetus is enrollment. It's contributing factors are the broader economy, the erosion of state sales tax bases due to that economy and deals they have cut to attract jobs, and the mechanization of the work force. There are many other contributing factors but these are among some of the most recognized.

Then factor in a birthrate among the middle class that is past peak and is waning.

State Flagship schools are dropping enrollment standards (not a lot but by increments) increasing enrollment through decreased tuition, or increased scholarships, or by the creation of zones beyond the state where out of state tuition will not be charged, and they are expanding available campus and off campus housing in preparation for what most states recognize as a necessity, cuts in higher education appropriations.

The total number of colleges and universities that we have were a direct beneficiary of the Baby Boom and the GI Bill. Single function colleges (teacher's colleges for the most part) blossomed into universities. Jr Colleges sprang up everywhere to make attending easier for applicants with either the inability to leave a smaller community for higher education or who had obligations to stay in a smaller community.

There was a retraction in this growth in between the education of returning WWII vets on the GI Bill, and the matriculation of the Boomers. There was a retraction after the Boomers and the matriculation of their children. Now we face a protracted retraction. The Boomers and their echo have passed. The echo of the Boomer's children's children (which will grow ever smaller) will have very little impact on the trends at hand. They will be less financially able to afford higher education partially because of inflation, partially because of the erosion of inheritances to end of life care and taxes, and mostly because most forms of labor (which is in abundant supply) are subject to supply and demand. Make jobs that cover the cost of a college education less available to the majority of graduates and the trend in higher education goes down, not up. So return on investment in a college education will mean fewer enroll out of fewer total applicants which means the higher education boom that was created when the GI's returned to a grateful nation pursued degrees that prior to the war would never have been pursued, and that they saw it as an obligation to their children to do the same, will no longer be the priority of a totally new generation.

The top 5% of students will still be the best paid professional class of citizens. But those who are craftsmen, or know trades, will be on the upswing. Skill sets, and more importantly the credentialing that says you have them, will become the new diploma to get a job. Those skills could be in communications, graphic arts, or plumbing. They will simply be what the current job market demands.

So with the reality of the current situation at hand States will protect their oldest institutions, combine or close their smallest ones, and redefine the missions their mid sized universities.

It's the natural human emotions over our institutions that lead to the angst. Really it is nothing more than the tide going out and taking with it the flotsam we thought was permanent because it was there for most of our lives.

Since the state focus will be on consolidation, state institutions cut with regard to state funding, and enrollment an issue, the leaders of those institutions who study trends constantly have already made the adjustments they deemed necessary to survive the present conditions.

If you need enrollment you do the things I've already mentioned they are doing including the building projects that seem to be counter productive. But they only seem that way because enrollment is trending down, not because we are considering that they are preparing for the downsizing of higher ed within their states. They are pursuing new revenue streams to make up for cuts in appropriations. FOX and ESPN see this as an opportunity to seized upon. Why? Because it gives them finally an opportunity to organize what had been the sleepy, regional, domain of the conferences. Now that the administrations of these schools are waking up to the need to cover lost funding the mega dollars of television are impossible for them to pass up. The cost is they've lost control over the form and function of their athletics and it has simply become big business and big business throws its weight around in this country.

Consolidation of branding in business lifts the brands involved. In other words place a highly sought product with another that is commonly needed and sales of both go up. The same principle applies to college sports programs. Place a brand with other brands and the demand for both goes up. This isn't a sinister plan of the P schools. It's the sinister plan of the networks and the P schools are the chosen product that has been hijacked from its rightful owners, the citizens of the states they represent.

Somehow we feel devalued when schools we attended or graduated from are demoted in the public perception, and we feel detached if they are closed. It is really an erroneous attachment as your diploma is not worth less, and it doesn't affect who you are. I only say this because more closures are coming. We are just at the beginning of this cycle.

Market forces and now technology are making many jobs obsolete and we aren't talking manual labor, we are talking white collar jobs. Many forms of management are going away. Work as we know it will be radically changed over the next few decades. And in the educated and industrialized world the birth rate proves this. The stress on the environment by overpopulation isn't coming from Europe and the United States. The mass migrations into Europe from Africa and the Middle East is a tell. Every major natural and man made catastrophe has been preceded by such migrations. Man made catastrophes are usually called war and they are almost always fought over resources.

So we will see a much tighter consolidation in Flagship schools, a broader elimination of smaller ones, and a more comprehensive change in the mission of the mid sized ones, before we see anything else. And since realignment is merely a side effect of these trends we will see more consolidation into top brands there as well. But it will be motivated by the pursuit of money and capitalized upon by the networks who will constantly looking for a smaller and better mix of schools and will be restrained only by the need to appease a larger market so eventually they will find the sweet spot in their models.

So if you blame a P school for your problems you are merely abusing a passenger on the Titanic lucky or fortunate enough to have found a lifeboat instead of directing your anger at the Captains who steered us into this iceberg, or the overall class system that had you locked below decks when lifeboats were available, and you are not seeing those schools in the P5 as victims who have nearly lost everything that endeared them to their alumni to an opportunist which places its stipulations on which cheers can be used, how the venues are to be used during games, what logos can go on the walls and where they will be placed, and what overhead they have to spend to get their venues ready for corporate connections for broadcast. It's like the Carpathia said to those in the lifeboats, give me control over your life and we'll pick you up. The ratio is about right too. 2200 went into the water and over 1500 perished. In other words a little less than 1/3rd survived the catastrophe. But the wreck that is realignment is merely the byproduct of forces that are radically altering a much much larger portion of our lives than just sports. And if that doesn't shake us and wake us, we're toast!


I take the longer, historical view. Mass migrations of peoples and major changes and upheavals of the established order are the rule, not the exception, thoughout history.

This will still be the case long after the United States of America is as dead as Assyria, Babylon, the Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire.

After the Roman Empire fell in the West in the Fifth Century AD, it was replaced by the barbarian tribes that eventually became the French, Germans and other Western European nations.

So, too, the USA may well collapse and be replaced by something else, maybe even something better. Who knows?

There is no sense in overly worrying and fretting about macro world events that one cannot control.

Life will go on, even after some upheaval and the overthrow of the established order. It is the way of the world.
04-28-2017 11:43 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 11:33 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 11:17 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The networks were interested in a another CFP game that featured G5 participants---they just were not interested to the tune of 40 million a year.

That's like saying that the Honda Civic is a nice car, but if they slap a sticker price of $100,000 on it, then I'm never going to buy one. I don't hate the car, and I'm not part of a conspiracy against Honda. I just think it's worth $20,000 and not $100,000.

I hear what you are saying---but I think the your example doesn't really capture the situation. The CFP situation is much more convoluted. Its like saying---"I have Accords on the lot that are worth 20K, I have Honda Pilots on the lot that are worth $40K. Despite the fact I know they arent the same value---Im pricing them all at $40K each. You can either buy the Pilot or the Accord for $40K...but I wont sell you an Accord for $20K. That's not a "free market". That's price fixing and anti-competitive behavior. There was room to have a couple of CFP bowls for the G5 champs. That money could have easily been split among the G5 and the networks saw extra value in additional CFP games ---just not $40 million Orange Bowl extra value. Priced at half the Orange Bowl value---then yes, there's interest. Not allowing proper pricing is not typical free market behavior.

In fact---don't get wrapped up in pricing. Why not just create 2 extra CFP games for the G5 champs and let the networks bid on them. The price is the price.

The way the CFP operates is anti-competitive. They artificially controlled the supply (because the G5 would have willingly supplied the extra 2 bowl games) and they price fixed. Both resulting in significant harm to the G5. There's really no argument there---which is probably the reason they get 90 million a year from the CFP. The CFP knows its engaged in anti-competitive behavior. lol...so basically the G5 is harmed---but they are also compensated. Would the G5 get 90 million on their own in a free market? Probably not. That said, if college football lost a third of its audience due to a G5 split--would a P5 CFP be worth its current value? Probably not. So, its probably best if the P5 and G5 find a better way to coexist because I think both benefit from the relationship.
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2017 12:07 PM by Attackcoog.)
04-28-2017 11:51 AM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 11:51 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 11:33 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 11:17 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The networks were interested in a another CFP game that featured G5 participants---they just were not interested to the tune of 40 million a year.

That's like saying that the Honda Civic is a nice car, but if they slap a sticker price of $100,000 on it, then I'm never going to buy one. I don't hate the car, and I'm not part of a conspiracy against Honda. I just think it's worth $20,000 and not $100,000.

I hear what you are saying---but I think the your example doesn't really capture the situation. The CFP situation is much more convoluted. Its like saying---"I have Accords on the lot that are worth 20K, I have Honda Pilots on the lot that are worth $40K. Despite the fact I know they arent the same value---Im pricing them all at $40K each. You can either buy the Pilot or the Accord for $40K...but I wont sell you an Accord for $20K. That's not a "free market". That's price fixing and anti-competitive behavior. There was room to have a couple of CFP bowls for the G5 champs. That money could have easily been split among the G5 and the networks saw extra value in additional CFP games ---just not $40 million Orange Bowl extra value. Not allowing that is not typical free market behavior.

Why do they have to be called CFP games?

To use the car analogy, what you're suggesting is like taking a Honda Civic and branding it a "Mercedes CVC". It's not a conspiracy if Mercedes says, no thanks, we don't want to put the Mercedes badge on that car. It's just Mercedes deciding what they want to do with their brand. They might be right or they might be wrong, but it's their decision to make, and not a conspiracy.
04-28-2017 12:03 PM
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RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 10:51 AM)Wedge Wrote:  No, other media companies have more than enough money and have some interest in college sports, they just spend their money in other ways. CBS pays obscene amounts for March Madness and also has SEC football. Turner is also invested in March Madness. NBC has Notre Dame football and bid so much for Pac-12 rights that ESPN and Fox had to be persuaded to bid jointly in order to outbid NBC.

There's nothing stopping any of those three giant media companies from paying tons of money for non-P5 college sports, except the fact that they don't want to.

And one day you're going to see companies other than TV programmers bid for the main broadcasting rights to sports! (not just the side-show "internet streaming" rights)

Think: Google, Facebook, Amazon, AT&T, and so on ...
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2017 12:10 PM by MplsBison.)
04-28-2017 12:10 PM
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RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
The way its going to go next time around is the networks are going to balk at paying the P5 more money.

The B1G will say but will you pay us more if we add Kansas and Oklahoma? The networks say sure we pay some more for that. The same thing with the Texas schools to the PAC.

The the B12 reloads with some top G5 teams but the resultant value is only good for BE money 5-6 million per year. They lose the Sugar Bowl tie and the G5 becomes a G6.

There will be complaining for sure and the G6 will want a larger cut of CFP money than before which they'll get another slice of.

The G will get richer.

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04-28-2017 12:39 PM
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RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 12:10 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 10:51 AM)Wedge Wrote:  No, other media companies have more than enough money and have some interest in college sports, they just spend their money in other ways. CBS pays obscene amounts for March Madness and also has SEC football. Turner is also invested in March Madness. NBC has Notre Dame football and bid so much for Pac-12 rights that ESPN and Fox had to be persuaded to bid jointly in order to outbid NBC.

There's nothing stopping any of those three giant media companies from paying tons of money for non-P5 college sports, except the fact that they don't want to.

And one day you're going to see companies other than TV programmers bid for the main broadcasting rights to sports! (not just the side-show "internet streaming" rights)

Think: Google, Facebook, Amazon, AT&T, and so on ...

Well, as the bread dries up the need for circuses will only grow. So saying that the sports market (distraction from life) is going to go away is ludicrous.
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RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 11:24 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  Jrsec, really dude, all that for what? Not even on topic at all

It was on topic for the discussion of the previous page in this thread. All you guys are doing is lambasting the P5 and lamenting the G5 without even understanding the macro reasons for what has transpired.

My post was intended to inform you about the larger market forces that have led to this, rather than to let you rant in the dark and punch at shadows.

But whatever, the thread was derailed the moment it became another anti P5 poor G5 pity party. And that is why I showed up and posted. I mark a thread wherever I see potential problems and it helps me to monitor it and issue any warnings that may be necessary.
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2017 12:44 PM by JRsec.)
04-28-2017 12:43 PM
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RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 11:36 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 11:17 AM)JRsec Wrote:  It's a matter of perception based on the aspect in focus. When you look at it from a college sports perspective you are looking at a trailing aspect rather than a leading one. And the focus is too defined to see the impetus for this trailing trend.

The impetus is enrollment. It's contributing factors are the broader economy, the erosion of state sales tax bases due to that economy and deals they have cut to attract jobs, and the mechanization of the work force. There are many other contributing factors but these are among some of the most recognized.

Then factor in a birthrate among the middle class that is past peak and is waning.

State Flagship schools are dropping enrollment standards (not a lot but by increments) increasing enrollment through decreased tuition, or increased scholarships, or by the creation of zones beyond the state where out of state tuition will not be charged, and they are expanding available campus and off campus housing in preparation for what most states recognize as a necessity, cuts in higher education appropriations.

The total number of colleges and universities that we have were a direct beneficiary of the Baby Boom and the GI Bill. Single function colleges (teacher's colleges for the most part) blossomed into universities. Jr Colleges sprang up everywhere to make attending easier for applicants with either the inability to leave a smaller community for higher education or who had obligations to stay in a smaller community.

There was a retraction in this growth in between the education of returning WWII vets on the GI Bill, and the matriculation of the Boomers. There was a retraction after the Boomers and the matriculation of their children. Now we face a protracted retraction. The Boomers and their echo have passed. The echo of the Boomer's children's children (which will grow ever smaller) will have very little impact on the trends at hand. They will be less financially able to afford higher education partially because of inflation, partially because of the erosion of inheritances to end of life care and taxes, and mostly because most forms of labor (which is in abundant supply) are subject to supply and demand. Make jobs that cover the cost of a college education less available to the majority of graduates and the trend in higher education goes down, not up. So return on investment in a college education will mean fewer enroll out of fewer total applicants which means the higher education boom that was created when the GI's returned to a grateful nation pursued degrees that prior to the war would never have been pursued, and that they saw it as an obligation to their children to do the same, will no longer be the priority of a totally new generation.

The top 5% of students will still be the best paid professional class of citizens. But those who are craftsmen, or know trades, will be on the upswing. Skill sets, and more importantly the credentialing that says you have them, will become the new diploma to get a job. Those skills could be in communications, graphic arts, or plumbing. They will simply be what the current job market demands.

So with the reality of the current situation at hand States will protect their oldest institutions, combine or close their smallest ones, and redefine the missions their mid sized universities.

It's the natural human emotions over our institutions that lead to the angst. Really it is nothing more than the tide going out and taking with it the flotsam we thought was permanent because it was there for most of our lives.

Since the state focus will be on consolidation, state institutions cut with regard to state funding, and enrollment an issue, the leaders of those institutions who study trends constantly have already made the adjustments they deemed necessary to survive the present conditions.

If you need enrollment you do the things I've already mentioned they are doing including the building projects that seem to be counter productive. But they only seem that way because enrollment is trending down, not because we are considering that they are preparing for the downsizing of higher ed within their states. They are pursuing new revenue streams to make up for cuts in appropriations. FOX and ESPN see this as an opportunity to seized upon. Why? Because it gives them finally an opportunity to organize what had been the sleepy, regional, domain of the conferences. Now that the administrations of these schools are waking up to the need to cover lost funding the mega dollars of television are impossible for them to pass up. The cost is they've lost control over the form and function of their athletics and it has simply become big business and big business throws its weight around in this country.

Consolidation of branding in business lifts the brands involved. In other words place a highly sought product with another that is commonly needed and sales of both go up. The same principle applies to college sports programs. Place a brand with other brands and the demand for both goes up. This isn't a sinister plan of the P schools. It's the sinister plan of the networks and the P schools are the chosen product that has been hijacked from its rightful owners, the citizens of the states they represent.

Somehow we feel devalued when schools we attended or graduated from are demoted in the public perception, and we feel detached if they are closed. It is really an erroneous attachment as your diploma is not worth less, and it doesn't affect who you are. I only say this because more closures are coming. We are just at the beginning of this cycle.

Market forces and now technology are making many jobs obsolete and we aren't talking manual labor, we are talking white collar jobs. Many forms of management are going away. Work as we know it will be radically changed over the next few decades. And in the educated and industrialized world the birth rate proves this. The stress on the environment by overpopulation isn't coming from Europe and the United States. The mass migrations into Europe from Africa and the Middle East is a tell. Every major natural and man made catastrophe has been preceded by such migrations. Man made catastrophes are usually called war and they are almost always fought over resources.

So we will see a much tighter consolidation in Flagship schools, a broader elimination of smaller ones, and a more comprehensive change in the mission of the mid sized ones, before we see anything else. And since realignment is merely a side effect of these trends we will see more consolidation into top brands there as well. But it will be motivated by the pursuit of money and capitalized upon by the networks who will constantly looking for a smaller and better mix of schools and will be restrained only by the need to appease a larger market so eventually they will find the sweet spot in their models.

So if you blame a P school for your problems you are merely abusing a passenger on the Titanic lucky or fortunate enough to have found a lifeboat instead of directing your anger at the Captains who steered us into this iceberg, or the overall class system that had you locked below decks when lifeboats were available, and you are not seeing those schools in the P5 as victims who have nearly lost everything that endeared them to their alumni to an opportunist which places its stipulations on which cheers can be used, how the venues are to be used during games, what logos can go on the walls and where they will be placed, and what overhead they have to spend to get their venues ready for corporate connections for broadcast. It's like the Carpathia said to those in the lifeboats, give me control over your life and we'll pick you up. The ratio is about right too. 2200 went into the water and over 1500 perished. In other words a little less than 1/3rd survived the catastrophe. But the wreck that is realignment is merely the byproduct of forces that are radically altering a much much larger portion of our lives than just sports. And if that doesn't shake us and wake us, we're toast!

Wars are how we humans have always thinned our herds to deal with major changes like the ones you are describing. I may not live to see the next World War, but most of the posters on this forum will. The usual precursors of war have begun in earnest. The biggest of these is the trend toward ultra-nationalism, as evidenced by events like the Brexit vote, the election of Trump, and the collapse of the centrist parties in France. The EEU will be a casualty, and possibly NATO and the United Nations, as we devolve into every country for itself.

Twenty years from now, we will surely wonder why we wasted so much angst on conference realignment and playoffs, and silly labels like P5 and G5.

Ken D. we must be fairly close in age. 20 years could be a lifetime for me, or beyond. I'm not ready to call it nationalism just yet although the overtones are definitely there. Right now my descriptor would be more from the 20's, protectionism, which could easily become xenophobic.

Perhaps the biggest tell was the Pentagon's defense plan for the 21st century. It heavily emphasized the protection of potable water sources. Add the over fishing of the world's oceans and the severe depletion of breeding stocks of the more palatable species and I'd say World War is not far-fetched at all. Water, protein, and space will do it every time. It will really not even be divided along political boundaries when it happens, IMO. It will be industrialized nations (at least at first) against underdeveloped nations not governing their population. The objectives will be for birth control and of course for resources. If things continue to tighten for life essential commodities then it will be between groups of nations.

Those with power will go after the low hanging and easily obtained fruit first and if not with cooperation then at least with no resistance as long as everyone gets a cut. I doubt this kind of war is going to be too boots intensive. A show of force will be made in the name of stopping global pollution, or called a liberation of the impoverished. Both are great PC excuses for incursions armed or otherwise.

Then as the byproduct of the failure of the EU, when national rights do emerge and global trade is affected, the foundation for global conflagration will have been laid. Refusals to pay international debts, or the refusal to sell essential resources, or embargoes, will put us right back to where we were in the late 20's and early 30's with regard to the relation of nation states.
04-28-2017 01:02 PM
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RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 11:43 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 11:17 AM)JRsec Wrote:  It's a matter of perception based on the aspect in focus. When you look at it from a college sports perspective you are looking at a trailing aspect rather than a leading one. And the focus is too defined to see the impetus for this trailing trend.

The impetus is enrollment. It's contributing factors are the broader economy, the erosion of state sales tax bases due to that economy and deals they have cut to attract jobs, and the mechanization of the work force. There are many other contributing factors but these are among some of the most recognized.

Then factor in a birthrate among the middle class that is past peak and is waning.

State Flagship schools are dropping enrollment standards (not a lot but by increments) increasing enrollment through decreased tuition, or increased scholarships, or by the creation of zones beyond the state where out of state tuition will not be charged, and they are expanding available campus and off campus housing in preparation for what most states recognize as a necessity, cuts in higher education appropriations.

The total number of colleges and universities that we have were a direct beneficiary of the Baby Boom and the GI Bill. Single function colleges (teacher's colleges for the most part) blossomed into universities. Jr Colleges sprang up everywhere to make attending easier for applicants with either the inability to leave a smaller community for higher education or who had obligations to stay in a smaller community.

There was a retraction in this growth in between the education of returning WWII vets on the GI Bill, and the matriculation of the Boomers. There was a retraction after the Boomers and the matriculation of their children. Now we face a protracted retraction. The Boomers and their echo have passed. The echo of the Boomer's children's children (which will grow ever smaller) will have very little impact on the trends at hand. They will be less financially able to afford higher education partially because of inflation, partially because of the erosion of inheritances to end of life care and taxes, and mostly because most forms of labor (which is in abundant supply) are subject to supply and demand. Make jobs that cover the cost of a college education less available to the majority of graduates and the trend in higher education goes down, not up. So return on investment in a college education will mean fewer enroll out of fewer total applicants which means the higher education boom that was created when the GI's returned to a grateful nation pursued degrees that prior to the war would never have been pursued, and that they saw it as an obligation to their children to do the same, will no longer be the priority of a totally new generation.

The top 5% of students will still be the best paid professional class of citizens. But those who are craftsmen, or know trades, will be on the upswing. Skill sets, and more importantly the credentialing that says you have them, will become the new diploma to get a job. Those skills could be in communications, graphic arts, or plumbing. They will simply be what the current job market demands.

So with the reality of the current situation at hand States will protect their oldest institutions, combine or close their smallest ones, and redefine the missions their mid sized universities.

It's the natural human emotions over our institutions that lead to the angst. Really it is nothing more than the tide going out and taking with it the flotsam we thought was permanent because it was there for most of our lives.

Since the state focus will be on consolidation, state institutions cut with regard to state funding, and enrollment an issue, the leaders of those institutions who study trends constantly have already made the adjustments they deemed necessary to survive the present conditions.

If you need enrollment you do the things I've already mentioned they are doing including the building projects that seem to be counter productive. But they only seem that way because enrollment is trending down, not because we are considering that they are preparing for the downsizing of higher ed within their states. They are pursuing new revenue streams to make up for cuts in appropriations. FOX and ESPN see this as an opportunity to seized upon. Why? Because it gives them finally an opportunity to organize what had been the sleepy, regional, domain of the conferences. Now that the administrations of these schools are waking up to the need to cover lost funding the mega dollars of television are impossible for them to pass up. The cost is they've lost control over the form and function of their athletics and it has simply become big business and big business throws its weight around in this country.

Consolidation of branding in business lifts the brands involved. In other words place a highly sought product with another that is commonly needed and sales of both go up. The same principle applies to college sports programs. Place a brand with other brands and the demand for both goes up. This isn't a sinister plan of the P schools. It's the sinister plan of the networks and the P schools are the chosen product that has been hijacked from its rightful owners, the citizens of the states they represent.

Somehow we feel devalued when schools we attended or graduated from are demoted in the public perception, and we feel detached if they are closed. It is really an erroneous attachment as your diploma is not worth less, and it doesn't affect who you are. I only say this because more closures are coming. We are just at the beginning of this cycle.

Market forces and now technology are making many jobs obsolete and we aren't talking manual labor, we are talking white collar jobs. Many forms of management are going away. Work as we know it will be radically changed over the next few decades. And in the educated and industrialized world the birth rate proves this. The stress on the environment by overpopulation isn't coming from Europe and the United States. The mass migrations into Europe from Africa and the Middle East is a tell. Every major natural and man made catastrophe has been preceded by such migrations. Man made catastrophes are usually called war and they are almost always fought over resources.

So we will see a much tighter consolidation in Flagship schools, a broader elimination of smaller ones, and a more comprehensive change in the mission of the mid sized ones, before we see anything else. And since realignment is merely a side effect of these trends we will see more consolidation into top brands there as well. But it will be motivated by the pursuit of money and capitalized upon by the networks who will constantly looking for a smaller and better mix of schools and will be restrained only by the need to appease a larger market so eventually they will find the sweet spot in their models.

So if you blame a P school for your problems you are merely abusing a passenger on the Titanic lucky or fortunate enough to have found a lifeboat instead of directing your anger at the Captains who steered us into this iceberg, or the overall class system that had you locked below decks when lifeboats were available, and you are not seeing those schools in the P5 as victims who have nearly lost everything that endeared them to their alumni to an opportunist which places its stipulations on which cheers can be used, how the venues are to be used during games, what logos can go on the walls and where they will be placed, and what overhead they have to spend to get their venues ready for corporate connections for broadcast. It's like the Carpathia said to those in the lifeboats, give me control over your life and we'll pick you up. The ratio is about right too. 2200 went into the water and over 1500 perished. In other words a little less than 1/3rd survived the catastrophe. But the wreck that is realignment is merely the byproduct of forces that are radically altering a much much larger portion of our lives than just sports. And if that doesn't shake us and wake us, we're toast!


I take the longer, historical view. Mass migrations of peoples and major changes and upheavals of the established order are the rule, not the exception, thoughout history.

This will still be the case long after the United States of America is as dead as Assyria, Babylon, the Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire.

After the Roman Empire fell in the West in the Fifth Century AD, it was replaced by the barbarian tribes that eventually became the French, Germans and other Western European nations.

So, too, the USA may well collapse and be replaced by something else, maybe even something better. Who knows?

There is no sense in overly worrying and fretting about macro world events that one cannot control.

Life will go on, even after some upheaval and the overthrow of the established order. It is the way of the world.

I don't fret. I don't worry. And I don't bury my head in the sand. I merely try to understand the forces at work during my lifetime because that way all of my decisions are better informed.

And quite frankly Terry D. while parts of life are a roller coaster ride to be enjoyed, other parts of it require some foresight if possible and planning. And since we live in an age where the fall of empires is not covered up with dirt and a new society built upon the tel of the old, and where there really are WMD's, I'm not as overtly optimistic that life will go on. But I do hope humanity has not become so irrational that it destroys itself just to make a point to an unfriendly neighbor.

Well, we've now had 3 of the 4 pages of the thread about other than whether ESPN's problems will lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff. Let's see if we can get back to rehashing another iteration of "how can we get more teams and non P5 teams into the CFP. I think it's hard to call any of the conversation thus far off topic because it all falls into the realm of things not likely to happen right now, or in the near term. But I find the 8 team playoff to be the most fictional of the off topic discussions.
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2017 01:13 PM by JRsec.)
04-28-2017 01:07 PM
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Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 12:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 11:24 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  Jrsec, really dude, all that for what? Not even on topic at all

It was on topic for the discussion of the previous page in this thread. All you guys are doing is lambasting the P5 and lamenting the G5 without even understanding the macro reasons for what has transpired.

My post was intended to inform you about the larger market forces that have led to this, rather than to let you rant in the dark and punch at shadows.

But whatever, the thread was derailed the moment it became another anti P5 poor G5 pity party. And that is why I showed up and posted. I mark a thread wherever I see potential problems and it helps me to monitor it and issue any warnings that may be necessary.

Well firstly thanks for responding to me a g5er, we g5ers are not ranting in the dark, this is suggesting we are somehow stupid because we are not p5ers, is it a pity party, yes somewhat but it's way more than that! Do you not expect real push back from us, I think it's increasing the G5 fan base if anything
Ken d said it best, in 20 years we will look back and wonder why?
04-28-2017 01:08 PM
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RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 12:39 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Well, as the bread dries up the need for circuses will only grow. So saying that the sports market (distraction from life) is going to go away is ludicrous.

I've always maintained that the prime mover in the value of sports competition broadcasts is the desire of people to view the game itself. That isn't going away, and it's not declining either.

And therefore, conferences must uphold their product as being immune to the (self imposed) financial pitfalls of TV programmers. If they refuse to pay up, then no one gets the rights. Let's see who buckles first, in that scenario!! I'm willing to bet it won't be the schools. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2017 01:19 PM by MplsBison.)
04-28-2017 01:17 PM
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RE: Will ESPN's problems lead to an 8 team College Football Playoff?
(04-28-2017 01:08 PM)JHS55 Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 12:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 11:24 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  Jrsec, really dude, all that for what? Not even on topic at all

It was on topic for the discussion of the previous page in this thread. All you guys are doing is lambasting the P5 and lamenting the G5 without even understanding the macro reasons for what has transpired.

My post was intended to inform you about the larger market forces that have led to this, rather than to let you rant in the dark and punch at shadows.

But whatever, the thread was derailed the moment it became another anti P5 poor G5 pity party. And that is why I showed up and posted. I mark a thread wherever I see potential problems and it helps me to monitor it and issue any warnings that may be necessary.

Well firstly thanks for responding to me a g5er, we g5ers are not ranting in the dark, this is suggesting we are somehow stupid because we are not p5ers, is it a pity party, yes somewhat but it's way more than that! Do you not expect real push back from us, I think it's increasing the G5 fan base if anything
Ken d said it best, in 20 years we will look back and wonder why?

This is exactly my point. The P5 didn't cause your problems. The market did. The P5 is not trying to exclude or pay you less. The networks are. I don't find P5 grads to be superior in intelligence to G5 grads or anyone. But I am sick and damned tired of G5 posters who think they have struck a blow for the disadvantage by hammering, harassing, or turning every discussion on this board into a P5 / G5 issue. Your anger is misdirected! There's not one P5 poster on this site that had anything to do with what has happened thus far in realignment or in the contracts that the networks offer. If you are pissed boycott them. If you are pissed call their offices and write them notes, but leave the discussion on this open forum for all people out of it because none of them, not one has done anything to your school.

Got it! I hope so, because this board is going to go back to normal discussion and all of this misplaced hostility and woe is me crap is going to stop!!! Nobody here deserves push back and Ken D. was reemphasizing something I had said in my post.

This thread ends here. If you have more to say PM me.

Apologies to the OP. You may have raised an often discussed old topic, but you did so with a fresh angle. If you want to restart that discussion in another thread please do. If someone derails your intent hit the report icon and we'll deal with it. JR
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2017 01:26 PM by JRsec.)
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