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Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-10-2017 11:43 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:32 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:22 AM)crex043 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 10:52 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 06:54 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  I agree.

In 1991 we were in a similar position. It looked like UC would be small-time forever, making it pointless to invest more money in Nippert.

But luckily they did expand Nippert in 1991. Without that decision, we never would have been invited to the Big East 13 years later. No Orange Bowl, no Sugar Bowl, and none of the huge increase in student quality/quantity that resulted from it.

Ugggh! The increases in student quality didn't have a damned thing to do with the BCS bowls. They had everything to do with moving away from open admissions and rejecting a quarter of the kids that would previously have been accepted. That it also happened during a favorable demographic bump in the number of high school graduates in Ohio only added to the effect. Those moves were put into place before the bowl games.

The Flutie Effect has been studied up and down, and the general consensus is that, at best, it provides a temporary bump in the number of applications that a school gets but no increase in the quality of the applicant pool.

So why do UC's recent class sizes and total enrollment continue to grow every year despite rejecting a quarter of the kids that apply? I'm not saying athletics has everything to do with it - UC is definitely growing in stature from a campus quality and academic standpoint - but you can't discount it.

I think you answered your own question: "not because of football" since increases in applications/enrollment continued despite UC's football teams falling off a clif.

As for increases in quality, as I posted in a different thread, they have begun to plateau. The easy part is lopping off that bottom quarter of the applicant pool (presto, your average ACT jumps from 22 to 25), and it has separated UC's selectivity from the Bowling Greens and Kent States and taken it up to the level of OU. That was the easy part. The higher you go up on the food chain though, the more you're competing with better universities with higher rankings and richer endowments. And the higher you go up that food chain, the less football is going to matter to the best students you're trying to attract. A cool football program might make the difference for a kid with a 24 ACT deciding between UC and Bowling Green and Akron. For a kid with a 30 ACT deciding between UC, Miami and OSU (and maybe some privates and out of state schools too), not so much. What matter most is the school's overall academic reputation, quality of the student body and the amount of merit aid available.

Tell that to Butler, which has continued to see an increase in student quality/quantity that started with their Final Four runs and has continued with their Big East membership.

Or look at Notre Dame. My friends who are Notre Dame alums repeatedly insist that if it weren't for football, Notre Dame would be equal/below Marquette academically.

Looking at Butler, which is a more apt comparison to UC, do you have any references on this? I tried to find historical common data sets, but Butler only puts the current class (13K apps/25-30 middle ACT range) on the website. If we could compare that to 2010, that might be something.

And you have to account for other variables in the mix. Almost every school has seen rising applications due to the demographic "baby boom echo" that's led to a rise in high school seniors as well as the fact that students today apply to several more colleges on average than they did a generation ago. Throw in the those schools on the common app, and it's a complex dynamic that's driving increased applications beyond having successful sports teams.

Let's take a look at Oregon, despite their success in football over the last decade and basketball more recently and Phil Knight's hundreds of millions, they still have an endowment (700M) smaller than UC's.

Comparing last year's common data set against that of 2005-2006, their applications have doubled from 10,012 to 21,281. Now is that being driven by a prominent athletic program that competes for football national championships, demographics, joining the common app, state population growth? As for the quality of their freshmen classes......uhhh, not so much. The middle 50% range for the SAT in the 2005 freshman class was 1001-1232. More than a decade later, it is 980-1220. In both years, only 25% of freshman graduated in the top tenth of their HS class. Utterly stagnant. So even if you want to ascribe the entire growth in apps to having a prominent athletic department, it's still not increasing the quality of their freshman classes or driving the school's academic reputation. And that's a school that is competing for national championships, has all the NIKE/Phil Knight publicity behind it AND is its state's flagship.
 
05-10-2017 12:31 PM
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-10-2017 12:00 PM)BigDawg Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:43 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:32 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:22 AM)crex043 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 10:52 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  Ugggh! The increases in student quality didn't have a damned thing to do with the BCS bowls. They had everything to do with moving away from open admissions and rejecting a quarter of the kids that would previously have been accepted. That it also happened during a favorable demographic bump in the number of high school graduates in Ohio only added to the effect. Those moves were put into place before the bowl games.

The Flutie Effect has been studied up and down, and the general consensus is that, at best, it provides a temporary bump in the number of applications that a school gets but no increase in the quality of the applicant pool.

So why do UC's recent class sizes and total enrollment continue to grow every year despite rejecting a quarter of the kids that apply? I'm not saying athletics has everything to do with it - UC is definitely growing in stature from a campus quality and academic standpoint - but you can't discount it.

I think you answered your own question: "not because of football" since increases in applications/enrollment continued despite UC's football teams falling off a clif.

As for increases in quality, as I posted in a different thread, they have begun to plateau. The easy part is lopping off that bottom quarter of the applicant pool (presto, your average ACT jumps from 22 to 25), and it has separated UC's selectivity from the Bowling Greens and Kent States and taken it up to the level of OU. That was the easy part. The higher you go up on the food chain though, the more you're competing with better universities with higher rankings and richer endowments. And the higher you go up that food chain, the less football is going to matter to the best students you're trying to attract. A cool football program might make the difference for a kid with a 24 ACT deciding between UC and Bowling Green and Akron. For a kid with a 30 ACT deciding between UC, Miami and OSU (and maybe some privates and out of state schools too), not so much. What matter most is the school's overall academic reputation, quality of the student body and the amount of merit aid available.

Tell that to Butler, which has continued to see an increase in student quality/quantity that started with their Final Four runs and has continued with their Big East membership.

Or look at Notre Dame. My friends who are Notre Dame alums repeatedly insist that if it weren't for football, Notre Dame would be equal/below Marquette academically.

I remember Ono saying how the number and quality of our applicants kept increasing with each BCS appearance. Yes our requirements increased, but the better applicants that may not have even realized UC's existence certainly helped and was aided by the football success.

Well, Ono like to run his mouth about a lot of things. How is it though that the number and quality kept increasing after the football program slid into mediocrity? I'm not seeing the causality there, particularly when one considers the other factors at work, in particular an open-admission school making the jump to selective admissions at the same time.
 
05-10-2017 12:35 PM
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crex043 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-10-2017 12:35 PM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 12:00 PM)BigDawg Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:43 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:32 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:22 AM)crex043 Wrote:  So why do UC's recent class sizes and total enrollment continue to grow every year despite rejecting a quarter of the kids that apply? I'm not saying athletics has everything to do with it - UC is definitely growing in stature from a campus quality and academic standpoint - but you can't discount it.

I think you answered your own question: "not because of football" since increases in applications/enrollment continued despite UC's football teams falling off a clif.

As for increases in quality, as I posted in a different thread, they have begun to plateau. The easy part is lopping off that bottom quarter of the applicant pool (presto, your average ACT jumps from 22 to 25), and it has separated UC's selectivity from the Bowling Greens and Kent States and taken it up to the level of OU. That was the easy part. The higher you go up on the food chain though, the more you're competing with better universities with higher rankings and richer endowments. And the higher you go up that food chain, the less football is going to matter to the best students you're trying to attract. A cool football program might make the difference for a kid with a 24 ACT deciding between UC and Bowling Green and Akron. For a kid with a 30 ACT deciding between UC, Miami and OSU (and maybe some privates and out of state schools too), not so much. What matter most is the school's overall academic reputation, quality of the student body and the amount of merit aid available.

Tell that to Butler, which has continued to see an increase in student quality/quantity that started with their Final Four runs and has continued with their Big East membership.

Or look at Notre Dame. My friends who are Notre Dame alums repeatedly insist that if it weren't for football, Notre Dame would be equal/below Marquette academically.

I remember Ono saying how the number and quality of our applicants kept increasing with each BCS appearance. Yes our requirements increased, but the better applicants that may not have even realized UC's existence certainly helped and was aided by the football success.

Well, Ono like to run his mouth about a lot of things. How is it though that the number and quality kept increasing after the football program slid into mediocrity? I'm not seeing the causality there, particularly when one considers the other factors at work, in particular an open-admission school making the jump to selective admissions at the same time.

Even though many saw it coming, football only slid into true mediocrity for a two year period, and I believe Nippert will still sold out at points during each of those seasons. Also, don't forget basketball - our attendance has been pretty steady and growing throughout Cronin's tenure.

Just because we have one or two bad years doesn't mean it damages the overall brand.
 
05-10-2017 02:19 PM
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RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
As far as admission standards, quality of prospective students, etc. UC has become the 3 just trailing Miami for high performing students in the state now. As someone who attended the meeting of Admission Directors last week in Columbus due to professional obligations, that much has become incredibly clear. Truthfully, the demographics within the PUBLIC higher ed institutions in the state fall in this general ranking.

1. Ohio State (avg. profile: 3.8 UW GPA, 31.9 ACT)

2. Miami (3.6 UW GPA, 28.2 ACT)

3. Cincinnati (3.5 UW GPA, 26.1 ACT)

4. Ohio U (3.5 UW GPA, 25.2 ACT)

5A. Kent State (3.2 UW GPA, 24.0 ACT)
5B. BGSU (3.1 UW GPA, 23.9 ACT)
5C. Toledo (3.1 UW GPA, 23.5 ACT)

6. Akron (3.0 UW GPA, 20.9 ACT)

7A. Cleveland State (2.9 UW GPA, 19.5 ACT)
7B. Wright State (2.9 UW GPA, 19.3 ACT)
7C. Youngstown State (2.8 UW GPA, 18.9 ACT)

8A. Shawnee State (2.6 UW GPA, 17.9 ACT)
8B. Central State (2.4 UW GPA, 16.8 ACT)

Obviously these are unofficial until census day, but that's a pretty clear representation of this coming year.
 
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2017 04:29 PM by BearcatMan.)
05-10-2017 03:19 PM
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RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
put
(05-10-2017 03:19 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  As far as admission standards, quality of prospective students, etc. UC has become the 3 just trailing Miami for high performing students in the state now. As someone who attended the meeting of Admission Directors last week in Columbus due to professional obligations, that much has become incredibly clear. Truthfully, the demographics within the PUBLIC higher ed institutions in the state fall in this general ranking.

1. Ohio State (avg. profile: 3.8 UW GPA, 31.9 ACT)

2. Miami (3.6 UW GPA, 27.2 ACT)

3. Cincinnati (3.5 UW GPA, 26.1 ACT)

4. Ohio U (3.5 UW GPA, 25.2 ACT)

5A. Kent State (3.2 UW GPA, 24.0 ACT)
5B. BGSU (3.1 UW GPA, 23.9 ACT)
5C. Toledo (3.1 UW GPA, 23.5 ACT)

6. Akron (3.0 UW GPA, 20.9 ACT)

7A. Cleveland State (2.9 UW GPA, 19.5 ACT)
7B. Wright State (2.9 UW GPA, 19.3 ACT)
7C. Youngstown State (2.8 UW GPA, 18.9 ACT)

8A. Shawnee State (2.6 UW GPA, 17.9 ACT)
8B. Central State (2.4 UW GPA, 16.8 ACT)

Obviously these are unofficial until census day, but that's a pretty clear representation of this coming year.

So we've passed OU and are that close to Miami. Noissse! I knew there was a big gap between OSU and Miami, but I didn't think it was that big. Anyone see the movie Kingsman: The Secret Service? I'd have to imagine heads exploding like that in Oxford if UC passes them by.

On a serious note, what are your thoughts on my contention that the curve will flatten and gains will get harder a d harder as we go further into the deep end of the pool?
 
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2017 03:47 PM by Bearcat 1985.)
05-10-2017 03:45 PM
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BearcatMan Online
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RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-10-2017 03:45 PM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  put
(05-10-2017 03:19 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  As far as admission standards, quality of prospective students, etc. UC has become the 3 just trailing Miami for high performing students in the state now. As someone who attended the meeting of Admission Directors last week in Columbus due to professional obligations, that much has become incredibly clear. Truthfully, the demographics within the PUBLIC higher ed institutions in the state fall in this general ranking.

1. Ohio State (avg. profile: 3.8 UW GPA, 31.9 ACT)

2. Miami (3.6 UW GPA, 27.2 ACT)

3. Cincinnati (3.5 UW GPA, 26.1 ACT)

4. Ohio U (3.5 UW GPA, 25.2 ACT)

5A. Kent State (3.2 UW GPA, 24.0 ACT)
5B. BGSU (3.1 UW GPA, 23.9 ACT)
5C. Toledo (3.1 UW GPA, 23.5 ACT)

6. Akron (3.0 UW GPA, 20.9 ACT)

7A. Cleveland State (2.9 UW GPA, 19.5 ACT)
7B. Wright State (2.9 UW GPA, 19.3 ACT)
7C. Youngstown State (2.8 UW GPA, 18.9 ACT)

8A. Shawnee State (2.6 UW GPA, 17.9 ACT)
8B. Central State (2.4 UW GPA, 16.8 ACT)

Obviously these are unofficial until census day, but that's a pretty clear representation of this coming year.

So we've passed OU and are that close to Miami. Noissse! I knew there was a big gap between OSU and Miami, but I didn't think it was that big. Anyone see the movie Kingsman: The Secret Service? I'd have to imagine heads exploding like that in Oxford if UC passes them by.

On a serious note, what are your thoughts on my contention that the curve will flatten and gains will get harder a d harder as we go further into the deep end of the pool?

You're definitely on the right track. There are only a certain amount of higher performing kids in any state, but luckily Ohio has a bit higher population than most. I mean, there are over 500 kids coming into UT's class this year with ACT's over 30...they're out there, it's more a competition between financial aid packages and UC is notoriously stingy with their scholarship money, mainly because their donor funding goes into capital funds for facilities/improvements and not into endowments for scholarships. Then again, they're out in front of the discount rate dilemma that BGSU, UT, Akron, and Kent are having at the moment...so it's a double edged sword.

I see UC plateauing at a 27 avg. ACT, which is very nice (roughly 85th percentile). I don't see them ever passing by Miami due in large part to historic perception and their high powered recruitment presence in the Chicago suburbs and the Northeast. Also, I mis-typed, theirs is a 28.2 not a 27.2.

The biggest issue with higher performers is the programs they're going into...Engineering, Nursing, Health Sciences, and Business...being available at most every school in the state. For instance, if you're looking at programs, Engineering at UC is extremely similar in outcome rates (placement and average earnings) to Toledo and UT costs quite a bit less. With the upcoming generation having a more attuned sense of the value of a dollar due to the recession most of them grew up in, that does mean a ton.

Medicine is another one...many students realize that WHERE you're getting your undergraduate degree doesn't mean much anymore in Med School Admissions, so they're going to the lower cost options and performing as well with half the debt.

The bigger discussion now is how much raising the entrance standards destroys the general spirit of public education. Ohio State, Kent State, Miami, OU, and BGSU have gotten around the issue with their branch campus landing areas, but schools like Akron, Cincinnati, and Toledo, who have very limited space and/or resources to develop branch campuses can't afford doing things like that to buffer the educational quality of their incoming student populations.

Of course, with the continued poor budget performance of many of the small private schools in the state (I sincerely believe at least 6 of the small private schools in the state of Ohio will be non-existent in the next decade), there will be an influx of the higher performing small school students into the admission market in the coming years.

Last point, but a lot of students are feeding off of OSU's wait list now. It has gotten to the point that if you're a white, middle class student from Ohio you genuinely need to be in the 31-33 ACT range to not be waitlisted at OSU-Main. There are A TON of people in the 28-30 range coming to the secondary and tertiary options because of the slight they feel from OSU...but that's what happens when you start getting into the science of "class-shaping"
 
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2017 04:32 PM by BearcatMan.)
05-10-2017 04:28 PM
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RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-10-2017 12:31 PM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:43 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:32 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 11:22 AM)crex043 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 10:52 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  Ugggh! The increases in student quality didn't have a damned thing to do with the BCS bowls. They had everything to do with moving away from open admissions and rejecting a quarter of the kids that would previously have been accepted. That it also happened during a favorable demographic bump in the number of high school graduates in Ohio only added to the effect. Those moves were put into place before the bowl games.

The Flutie Effect has been studied up and down, and the general consensus is that, at best, it provides a temporary bump in the number of applications that a school gets but no increase in the quality of the applicant pool.

So why do UC's recent class sizes and total enrollment continue to grow every year despite rejecting a quarter of the kids that apply? I'm not saying athletics has everything to do with it - UC is definitely growing in stature from a campus quality and academic standpoint - but you can't discount it.

I think you answered your own question: "not because of football" since increases in applications/enrollment continued despite UC's football teams falling off a clif.

As for increases in quality, as I posted in a different thread, they have begun to plateau. The easy part is lopping off that bottom quarter of the applicant pool (presto, your average ACT jumps from 22 to 25), and it has separated UC's selectivity from the Bowling Greens and Kent States and taken it up to the level of OU. That was the easy part. The higher you go up on the food chain though, the more you're competing with better universities with higher rankings and richer endowments. And the higher you go up that food chain, the less football is going to matter to the best students you're trying to attract. A cool football program might make the difference for a kid with a 24 ACT deciding between UC and Bowling Green and Akron. For a kid with a 30 ACT deciding between UC, Miami and OSU (and maybe some privates and out of state schools too), not so much. What matter most is the school's overall academic reputation, quality of the student body and the amount of merit aid available.

Tell that to Butler, which has continued to see an increase in student quality/quantity that started with their Final Four runs and has continued with their Big East membership.

Or look at Notre Dame. My friends who are Notre Dame alums repeatedly insist that if it weren't for football, Notre Dame would be equal/below Marquette academically.

Looking at Butler, which is a more apt comparison to UC, do you have any references on this? I tried to find historical common data sets, but Butler only puts the current class (13K apps/25-30 middle ACT range) on the website. If we could compare that to 2010, that might be something.

And you have to account for other variables in the mix. Almost every school has seen rising applications due to the demographic "baby boom echo" that's led to a rise in high school seniors as well as the fact that students today apply to several more colleges on average than they did a generation ago. Throw in the those schools on the common app, and it's a complex dynamic that's driving increased applications beyond having successful sports teams.

Let's take a look at Oregon, despite their success in football over the last decade and basketball more recently and Phil Knight's hundreds of millions, they still have an endowment (700M) smaller than UC's.

Comparing last year's common data set against that of 2005-2006, their applications have doubled from 10,012 to 21,281. Now is that being driven by a prominent athletic program that competes for football national championships, demographics, joining the common app, state population growth? As for the quality of their freshmen classes......uhhh, not so much. The middle 50% range for the SAT in the 2005 freshman class was 1001-1232. More than a decade later, it is 980-1220. In both years, only 25% of freshman graduated in the top tenth of their HS class. Utterly stagnant. So even if you want to ascribe the entire growth in apps to having a prominent athletic department, it's still not increasing the quality of their freshman classes or driving the school's academic reputation. And that's a school that is competing for national championships, has all the NIKE/Phil Knight publicity behind it AND is its state's flagship.

This article says that before the Final Four runs, Butler had about 6,200 applications. And you're saying they're now at 13,000.

As for Oregon - as you say, "their applications have doubled from 10,012 to 21,281." According to IPEDS their percent of out-of-state students has increased from 30% to 49%. That's pretty good evidence of their increased appeal.

As for quality, their total undergraduate enrollment has increased from 16,473 to 20,559. So they chose to get bigger rather than more selective. If they had chosen to get bigger without football, they would have had to lower the quality.

Oregon only has 231,000 living alumni (20% smaller than UC), and it's in a state that is smaller and poorer (after cost-of-living is accounted for) than Kentucky. So it's not surprising that they have a lower endowment than UC.
 
05-10-2017 04:49 PM
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RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-10-2017 04:28 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Last point, but a lot of students are feeding off of OSU's wait list now. It has gotten to the point that if you're a white, middle class student from Ohio you genuinely need to be in the 31-33 ACT range to not be waitlisted at OSU-Main. There are A TON of people in the 28-30 range coming to the secondary and tertiary options because of the slight they feel from OSU...but that's what happens when you start getting into the science of "class-shaping"

Wait, really? When I graduated in '13, I had a 28 ACT score (31 in science, 29 in math) and ~3.7 GPA, and was able to get in.

Does Ohio State have a ~top % rule or something like other states have that guarantee you a spot if you were in the top (10)% of your high school?

That seems like a extremely large jump in less then 4 years.
 
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RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-10-2017 07:01 PM)MercerCo_BearCat Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 04:28 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Last point, but a lot of students are feeding off of OSU's wait list now. It has gotten to the point that if you're a white, middle class student from Ohio you genuinely need to be in the 31-33 ACT range to not be waitlisted at OSU-Main. There are A TON of people in the 28-30 range coming to the secondary and tertiary options because of the slight they feel from OSU...but that's what happens when you start getting into the science of "class-shaping"

Wait, really? When I graduated in '13, I had a 28 ACT score (31 in science, 29 in math) and ~3.7 GPA, and was able to get in.

Does Ohio State have a ~top % rule or something like other states have that guarantee you a spot if you were in the top (10)% of your high school?

That seems like a extremely large jump in less then 4 years.

The 31.9 ACT is higher than I what I have heard discussed internally but I'm not associated with admissions at all. I do know the past few cycles it has jumped ~1 point per year.

What you need for main campus acceptance is also dependant on your selected major. Some are just more competitive to get into. If you want to major in French language studies the bar is lower (besides knowing French obviously).
 
05-11-2017 07:18 AM
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RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-10-2017 07:01 PM)MercerCo_BearCat Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 04:28 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Last point, but a lot of students are feeding off of OSU's wait list now. It has gotten to the point that if you're a white, middle class student from Ohio you genuinely need to be in the 31-33 ACT range to not be waitlisted at OSU-Main. There are A TON of people in the 28-30 range coming to the secondary and tertiary options because of the slight they feel from OSU...but that's what happens when you start getting into the science of "class-shaping"

Wait, really? When I graduated in '13, I had a 28 ACT score (31 in science, 29 in math) and ~3.7 GPA, and was able to get in.

Does Ohio State have a ~top % rule or something like other states have that guarantee you a spot if you were in the top (10)% of your high school?

That seems like a extremely large jump in less then 4 years.

A 10% rule inevitably drives down test score profiles since a school is locked into accepting students from low-achieving schools just because they made the top 10%. Texas has been hit pretty hard by that dynamic. Berkeley and UCLA are immune to it because California residents in the top 12.5% are only guaranteed admission into "a University of California campus" not their choice of campuses.

I also thought OSU's average ACT was right around 30. 31.9 would put it at or very close to Michigan.
 
05-11-2017 10:57 AM
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RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-11-2017 10:57 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 07:01 PM)MercerCo_BearCat Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 04:28 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Last point, but a lot of students are feeding off of OSU's wait list now. It has gotten to the point that if you're a white, middle class student from Ohio you genuinely need to be in the 31-33 ACT range to not be waitlisted at OSU-Main. There are A TON of people in the 28-30 range coming to the secondary and tertiary options because of the slight they feel from OSU...but that's what happens when you start getting into the science of "class-shaping"

Wait, really? When I graduated in '13, I had a 28 ACT score (31 in science, 29 in math) and ~3.7 GPA, and was able to get in.

Does Ohio State have a ~top % rule or something like other states have that guarantee you a spot if you were in the top (10)% of your high school?

That seems like a extremely large jump in less then 4 years.

A 10% rule inevitably drives down test score profiles since a school is locked into accepting students from low-achieving schools just because they made the top 10%. Texas has been hit pretty hard by that dynamic. Berkeley and UCLA are immune to it because California residents in the top 12.5% are only guaranteed admission into "a University of California campus" not their choice of campuses.

I also thought OSU's average ACT was right around 30. 31.9 would put it at or very close to Michigan.

They're doing some mean class shaping this year. They had over 50,000 applications and are only going to bring in a class of around 6,100 to main campus. I had a student work with me who was wait listed to main campus engineering with a 4.4 WGPA and a 29 ACT. They're shoveling even more students to branch campuses to help drive up their yearly retention rates at main campus to increase state funding. Smart move, but very much against the spirit of a Land-Grant institution.

A lot can happen in 4 years, you would've been in their breadbasket in the F13 class (they were right around a 3.6 UWGPA and 29 ACT then), but they're really starting to play the game...but I guess that's what happens when you're the ones who write the rules :lmfao:
 
(This post was last modified: 05-11-2017 01:33 PM by BearcatMan.)
05-11-2017 01:32 PM
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-11-2017 01:32 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 10:57 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 07:01 PM)MercerCo_BearCat Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 04:28 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Last point, but a lot of students are feeding off of OSU's wait list now. It has gotten to the point that if you're a white, middle class student from Ohio you genuinely need to be in the 31-33 ACT range to not be waitlisted at OSU-Main. There are A TON of people in the 28-30 range coming to the secondary and tertiary options because of the slight they feel from OSU...but that's what happens when you start getting into the science of "class-shaping"

Wait, really? When I graduated in '13, I had a 28 ACT score (31 in science, 29 in math) and ~3.7 GPA, and was able to get in.

Does Ohio State have a ~top % rule or something like other states have that guarantee you a spot if you were in the top (10)% of your high school?

That seems like a extremely large jump in less then 4 years.

A 10% rule inevitably drives down test score profiles since a school is locked into accepting students from low-achieving schools just because they made the top 10%. Texas has been hit pretty hard by that dynamic. Berkeley and UCLA are immune to it because California residents in the top 12.5% are only guaranteed admission into "a University of California campus" not their choice of campuses.

I also thought OSU's average ACT was right around 30. 31.9 would put it at or very close to Michigan.

They're doing some mean class shaping this year. They had over 50,000 applications and are only going to bring in a class of around 6,100 to main campus. I had a student work with me who was wait listed to main campus engineering with a 4.4 WGPA and a 29 ACT. They're shoveling even more students to branch campuses to help drive up their yearly retention rates at main campus to increase state funding. Smart move, but very much against the spirit of a Land-Grant institution.

A lot can happen in 4 years, you would've been in their breadbasket in the F13 class (they were right around a 3.6 UWGPA and 29 ACT then), but they're really starting to play the game...but I guess that's what happens when you're the ones who write the rules 03-lmfao

I don't really have a problem with the state's only AAU school being as selective as it a can be, nor do I necessarily find it incompatible with being the land-grant school. After all, Berekeley, Wisconsin and Illinois are all land-grant schools. As long as the state offers a mix of community colleges and lesser selective 4-year campuses to give access, I'm fine with it. As mentioned above, it provides UC a window of opportunity to be 1st choice (or perhaps co-first choice along with Miami) for those 27-29 ACT students who aren't threading the needle in Columbus. The greater threat is in the old Jim Rhodes approach to higher education.where all schools were viewed as the same and the perception was that it didn't make any difference whether you ended up at UC or UT. Again, why I support working with Ohio State where possible to lock ourselves into that second slot in a state hierarchy.
 
05-11-2017 02:17 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-11-2017 01:32 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 10:57 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 07:01 PM)MercerCo_BearCat Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 04:28 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Last point, but a lot of students are feeding off of OSU's wait list now. It has gotten to the point that if you're a white, middle class student from Ohio you genuinely need to be in the 31-33 ACT range to not be waitlisted at OSU-Main. There are A TON of people in the 28-30 range coming to the secondary and tertiary options because of the slight they feel from OSU...but that's what happens when you start getting into the science of "class-shaping"

Wait, really? When I graduated in '13, I had a 28 ACT score (31 in science, 29 in math) and ~3.7 GPA, and was able to get in.

Does Ohio State have a ~top % rule or something like other states have that guarantee you a spot if you were in the top (10)% of your high school?

That seems like a extremely large jump in less then 4 years.

A 10% rule inevitably drives down test score profiles since a school is locked into accepting students from low-achieving schools just because they made the top 10%. Texas has been hit pretty hard by that dynamic. Berkeley and UCLA are immune to it because California residents in the top 12.5% are only guaranteed admission into "a University of California campus" not their choice of campuses.

I also thought OSU's average ACT was right around 30. 31.9 would put it at or very close to Michigan.

They're doing some mean class shaping this year. They had over 50,000 applications and are only going to bring in a class of around 6,100 to main campus. I had a student work with me who was wait listed to main campus engineering with a 4.4 WGPA and a 29 ACT. They're shoveling even more students to branch campuses to help drive up their yearly retention rates at main campus to increase state funding. Smart move, but very much against the spirit of a Land-Grant institution.

A lot can happen in 4 years, you would've been in their breadbasket in the F13 class (they were right around a 3.6 UWGPA and 29 ACT then), but they're really starting to play the game...but I guess that's what happens when you're the ones who write the rules 03-lmfao

How is HS GPA viewed in college admissions now? Does it matter or is it just a tiny part of the "holistic" approach? Holistic seems to be code for BS.

From what I hear in meetings if you want main campus CoE scores start in the 31-32 range. The drive is to increase CoE enrolment by 50% in 5 years. The solution is to send in-state kids in the 28-30 ACT range to Newark. They are alienating a large number of students in the drive to raise their profile. As a result there were not many from our massive suburban HS headed to OSU. Probably <10 main campus while they could have used a bus to get kids to UC (~50 to UC).
 
05-11-2017 02:18 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-11-2017 02:18 PM)Bearcat1010 Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 01:32 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 10:57 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 07:01 PM)MercerCo_BearCat Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 04:28 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Last point, but a lot of students are feeding off of OSU's wait list now. It has gotten to the point that if you're a white, middle class student from Ohio you genuinely need to be in the 31-33 ACT range to not be waitlisted at OSU-Main. There are A TON of people in the 28-30 range coming to the secondary and tertiary options because of the slight they feel from OSU...but that's what happens when you start getting into the science of "class-shaping"

Wait, really? When I graduated in '13, I had a 28 ACT score (31 in science, 29 in math) and ~3.7 GPA, and was able to get in.

Does Ohio State have a ~top % rule or something like other states have that guarantee you a spot if you were in the top (10)% of your high school?

That seems like a extremely large jump in less then 4 years.

A 10% rule inevitably drives down test score profiles since a school is locked into accepting students from low-achieving schools just because they made the top 10%. Texas has been hit pretty hard by that dynamic. Berkeley and UCLA are immune to it because California residents in the top 12.5% are only guaranteed admission into "a University of California campus" not their choice of campuses.

I also thought OSU's average ACT was right around 30. 31.9 would put it at or very close to Michigan.

They're doing some mean class shaping this year. They had over 50,000 applications and are only going to bring in a class of around 6,100 to main campus. I had a student work with me who was wait listed to main campus engineering with a 4.4 WGPA and a 29 ACT. They're shoveling even more students to branch campuses to help drive up their yearly retention rates at main campus to increase state funding. Smart move, but very much against the spirit of a Land-Grant institution.

A lot can happen in 4 years, you would've been in their breadbasket in the F13 class (they were right around a 3.6 UWGPA and 29 ACT then), but they're really starting to play the game...but I guess that's what happens when you're the ones who write the rules 03-lmfao

How is HS GPA viewed in college admissions now? Does it matter or is it just a tiny part of the "holistic" approach? Holistic seems to be code for BS.

From what I hear in meetings if you want main campus CoE scores start in the 31-32 range. The drive is to increase CoE enrolment by 50% in 5 years. The solution is to send in-state kids in the 28-30 ACT range to Newark. They are alienating a large number of students in the drive to raise their profile. As a result there were not many from our massive suburban HS headed to OSU. Probably <10 main campus while they could have used a bus to get kids to UC (~50 to UC).

My 2 cents is that "holisticallly" means that GPA isn't heavily weighted by itself and is viewed strongly through the context of test scores and class rank. A pretty good idea in this age of grade inflation and parents in affluent districts who threaten lawyer up if precious gets a b-
 
05-11-2017 02:31 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Cincinnati ranked as #14 best football-basketball combination school by SportingNews
(05-11-2017 02:31 PM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 02:18 PM)Bearcat1010 Wrote:  How is HS GPA viewed in college admissions now? Does it matter or is it just a tiny part of the "holistic" approach? Holistic seems to be code for BS.

From what I hear in meetings if you want main campus CoE scores start in the 31-32 range. The drive is to increase CoE enrolment by 50% in 5 years. The solution is to send in-state kids in the 28-30 ACT range to Newark. They are alienating a large number of students in the drive to raise their profile. As a result there were not many from our massive suburban HS headed to OSU. Probably <10 main campus while they could have used a bus to get kids to UC (~50 to UC).

My 2 cents is that "holisticallly" means that GPA isn't heavily weighted by itself and is viewed strongly through the context of test scores and class rank. A pretty good idea in this age of grade inflation and parents in affluent districts who threaten lawyer up if precious gets a b-

GPA is still a cross-category standard in admissions for the low and mid-tier institutions since it does a fairly good job of separating good students from average and below average counterparts, but only when comparing with ACT/SAT data.

To put things in perspective, there is a school district in NW Ohio with 340 graduating seniors, 113 of whom have above a 4.0 due in no small part to parental interference and students masterfully playing the grade game, so in situations like that we all tend to put more emphasis on test scores and additional information/recommendations/involvement of the specific student. Conversely, the same is done with students from lower performing public schools as charter schools, as the GPAs there (3.5-4.0) tend to not correlate with avg test scores (16.1 for TPS students this past year), so we have to dig deeper. The truth of the matter is that schools have become so efficient at preparing students for a single test rather than for college, we have to start digging deeper to see if they are truly ready for the next step. The sad thing is, there are schools who do the right thing, who challenge their students with next level standards of quality, and end up penalizing them because they don't get GPAs that compare to other schools who just throw 5.0's at half their course catalog. Ottawa Hills in Toledo, Walnut Hills and Indian Hill in Cincinnati, CVCA and U School in Cleveland, Harvest and Upper Arlington in Columbus, etc. who have avg ACT's in the stratosphere but avg. GPA is down around 3.0 where it really should be in every suburban school districts.

The other issue is the percentage grading that many private schools get into using. St. X for instance has an aggregated average of all grades accumulated over 4 years for their students, so you'll typically see students with a 90%, 94%, etc. Now those students are getting all A's by other schools' standards (so a 4.0), but colleges are required to convert their GPA to the 4.0 scale based on that percentage (90% of 4.0 is 3.6 for example), which penalizes every student unnecessarily. The fact that we don't at least have a common grade scale in the state penalizes students in many cases when scholarships come down. There are some schools in OH where below a 94 is a B, below an 85 is a C, below a 76 is a D and below a 68 is an F...think about that for a second.

Now you see why more schools are looking at things outside of the GPA/ACT score.
Holistic admissions is not as much of a BS policy as is currently thought specifically because it is used by the schools who actually NEED another way of determining candidate quality across varying lines. You tend to only see that in higher level institutions (Ivy's, Michigan, Northwestern, etc.) for admission because the average candidate profile is so high to begin with, however, scholarships pretty much on the whole have moved to Holistic evaluation practices everywhere since you tend to have to find more information to make an informed decision. I always tell students looking at the high-level institutions who I speak with early in the process that it isn't just about being a good student anymore, it's about being a well-rounded student who has shown they can and will make a difference in their world. I had a student just this year who was denied by UM with a 4.3 GPA and a 35 (!) on the ACT this year because that was ALL he did, no club or sport involvement, no community involvement, no leadership experience, nothing...that was the kind of kid Michigan dreamed of getting a decade and a half ago, and now they're showing him the door.

Can we get a split, I've always seen a lot of interest in discussions about these topics, but it ends up getting hidden in other threads and derailing the point of the initial post (as in this case lol)
 
05-12-2017 08:01 AM
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