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Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
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MinerInWisconsin Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
(04-08-2017 12:21 PM)CoachMaclid Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 12:12 PM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  I really don't think that Marshall, UAB, USM, LT, Rice or UTEP are in that situation. Those 5 along with at least 1 of the Florida schools and UNT, UTSA should stay and maybe eventually build to 10 from there.

Why 10? Why the extra 2 splits of revenue?

Wouldn't have to do that but 10 is max now due to cfp money. Don't need 12 anymore and I suppose 8 would be fine.
04-08-2017 12:23 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
The only workable ideal in the article was moving Olympic sports into a bus league conference to cut down on travel cost.

Western's travel cost has went down in CUSA over the SBC

Below are the part of the expenditures and budgets for Western's football and two basketball teams. The first picture is used to put the columns by the year. The fist year Western was in the SBC

[Image: fb1_zpscpg93doo.jpg]


Below are the travel

Men basketball

[Image: mbb3_zpsz0ieiz20.jpg]

LadyToppers

[Image: wbb3_zps2cnrcsiz.jpg]

football
[Image: fb4_zpswbjezq3d.jpg]


Here's a few other sports

baseball
[Image: mbb-3_zpsljwumemr.jpg]

softball
[Image: sb3_zpsdwg6ppy4.jpg]

track (men)
[Image: tr3_zpsdlhkb4tu.jpg]

track(lady's)
[Image: wtf3_zpso7bx6etf.jpg]

V-ball
[Image: voll3_zpslgvinzz6.jpg]
04-08-2017 12:24 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
I know CUSA took a lot of SBC teams as fill ins, but currently, as both stand, there isn't a financial benefit for anyone who is part of CUSA to move to the SBC. There could still be some reward for a team to move from the SBC to CUSA. The issue comes down to expansion fees vs revenue distribution.... no one makes money or even breaks even in any find of school swap.... basically, its not wise to move financially because of the costs associated in doing so.
04-08-2017 12:28 PM
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RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
(04-08-2017 12:12 PM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  Interesting that some school administrators reject the idea of minor sports regionalizing while leaving football and basketball alone. That alone would help the finances.

If it comes to reorganizing I would favor having the schools that need a tight geographic league to survive financially to go ahead and organize it, thus leaving the conference name and autobids to those that stay. I really don't think that Marshall, UAB, USM, LT, Rice or UTEP are in that situation. Those 5 along with at least 1 of the Florida schools and UNT, UTSA should stay and maybe eventually build to 10 from there.

Did you just pick some schools out of a hat? It's obvious you didn't put any real thought into it. If you did you would know that S. Miss and Tech are the two CUSA schools that are most budget challenged. Both do a great job, with their limited funds but I believe they have the 2 lowest budgets in CUSA. While Marshall has good fan support that are in the same boat as everyone else. And to top it off you added a school that just got a last second reprieve of their football program because of fiance.

Yeah, like I said...you put a ton of thought into that one.
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2017 12:38 PM by WKUYG.)
04-08-2017 12:35 PM
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OwlFamily Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
I doubt you'll ever find anyone willing to take just one of the Fla schools. Having both together is easier for travel and exposure for recruiting.
04-08-2017 12:43 PM
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wkufirst Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
My preference:

WKU
MTSU
UAB
USM
La Tech
FAU
FIU
Marshall
04-08-2017 01:08 PM
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RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
(04-08-2017 01:08 PM)wkufirst Wrote:  My preference:

WKU
MTSU
UAB
USM
La Tech
FAU
FIU
Marshall

Need 9 to play 8 conference football games and a 16 game conference basketball schedule.

I love the fla. schools for personal reasons but if I was picking a new conference on best shot of being good in football and basketball.

I would drop FAU and add in USA and ULL

Travel partners
Marshall/Western
Middle/UAB
S.Miss/USA
Tech/ULL
FIU (FAU if we went to 10)

If the two LA. schools wanted to stay west I would go east and add ODU and UNCC. I think 5 years from now that move would be a wash when UNCC recovers from basketball. I think ODU and UNCC will grow as football programs. ODU is setting in a very rich area of talent.

I actually think that would make a great 12 team conference
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2017 01:42 PM by WKUYG.)
04-08-2017 01:17 PM
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monarx Online
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Post: #28
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
Just hold out until the three big guns in the AAC leave and they renegotiate their
Media rights.Then they're in the same boat as us again and the redistribution would make much more sense and be more equal among the three of us.Until then I think we are all stuck here.
04-08-2017 01:33 PM
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TrueBlueDrew Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
(04-08-2017 11:45 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 11:36 AM)FriscoDawg Wrote:  More or Less Inevitable? My take is strongly LESS.

No viable proposal is mentioned in that article, and it wasn't worth the few minutes that I wasted reading it.

I think some sort of realignment between the two leagues is inevitable simply because I'm not sure either league can continue at it's current alignment for much longer.

I am not sure Geography is the answer. While it works well on paper for the former FCS schools in the East, it doesn't work particularly well for everyone else.

Give it to an ODU beat writer for proposing a model that is wonderful for ODU and terrible for everyone else. Our beat writer would probably propose a model that includes sending Arkansas State to FCS so he can attend more Razorback games.

I do not like the "by-geography" model of realignment. That would potentially put Georgia Southern and App in a conference with GAST, UAB, UNCC, FIU, and FAU and no offense to those schools but we don't have anything in common with them other than being in the same state as Ga State. That would not drive ticket sales because playing UNCC would absolutely not sell tickets the way playing Arkansas State would.

Let the city schools form a conference with other like-minded research schools and the college town football schools will do the same.

City School Conference: NMSU, UTEP, Rice, UNT, TXST, UTSA, South Alabama, UAB, Ga State, UNCC, FIU, FAU.

College Town Conference: La Tech, UL, Arkansas St, USM, Troy, Georgia Southern, WKU, MT, App, Marshall, ODU, JMU

(Apologies to ULM and Coastal)
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2017 01:37 PM by TrueBlueDrew.)
04-08-2017 01:34 PM
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Niner National Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
(04-08-2017 01:34 PM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 11:45 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 11:36 AM)FriscoDawg Wrote:  More or Less Inevitable? My take is strongly LESS.

No viable proposal is mentioned in that article, and it wasn't worth the few minutes that I wasted reading it.

I think some sort of realignment between the two leagues is inevitable simply because I'm not sure either league can continue at it's current alignment for much longer.

I am not sure Geography is the answer. While it works well on paper for the former FCS schools in the East, it doesn't work particularly well for everyone else.

Give it to an ODU beat writer for proposing a model that is wonderful for ODU and terrible for everyone else. Our beat writer would probably propose a model that includes sending Arkansas State to FCS so he can attend more Razorback games.

I do not like the "by-geography" model of realignment. That would potentially put Georgia Southern and App in a conference with GAST, UAB, UNCC, FIU, and FAU and no offense to those schools but we don't have anything in common with them other than being in the same state as Ga State. That would not drive ticket sales because playing UNCC would absolutely not sell tickets the way playing Arkansas State would.

Let the city schools form a conference with other like-minded research schools and the college town football schools will do the same.

City School Conference: NMSU, UTEP, Rice, UNT, TXST, UTSA, South Alabama, UAB, Ga State, UNCC, FIU, FAU.

College Town Conference: La Tech, UL, Arkansas St, USM, Troy, Georgia Southern, WKU, MT, App, Marshall, ODU, JMU

(Apologies to ULM and Coastal)
Norfolk is a college town? The greater metro area is well over a million people.
04-08-2017 02:21 PM
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Dawgxas Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
Bye Felicia
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2017 02:30 PM by Dawgxas.)
04-08-2017 02:30 PM
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TrueBlueDrew Offline
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RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
(04-08-2017 02:21 PM)Niner National Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 01:34 PM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 11:45 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 11:36 AM)FriscoDawg Wrote:  More or Less Inevitable? My take is strongly LESS.

No viable proposal is mentioned in that article, and it wasn't worth the few minutes that I wasted reading it.

I think some sort of realignment between the two leagues is inevitable simply because I'm not sure either league can continue at it's current alignment for much longer.

I am not sure Geography is the answer. While it works well on paper for the former FCS schools in the East, it doesn't work particularly well for everyone else.

Give it to an ODU beat writer for proposing a model that is wonderful for ODU and terrible for everyone else. Our beat writer would probably propose a model that includes sending Arkansas State to FCS so he can attend more Razorback games.

I do not like the "by-geography" model of realignment. That would potentially put Georgia Southern and App in a conference with GAST, UAB, UNCC, FIU, and FAU and no offense to those schools but we don't have anything in common with them other than being in the same state as Ga State. That would not drive ticket sales because playing UNCC would absolutely not sell tickets the way playing Arkansas State would.

Let the city schools form a conference with other like-minded research schools and the college town football schools will do the same.

City School Conference: NMSU, UTEP, Rice, UNT, TXST, UTSA, South Alabama, UAB, Ga State, UNCC, FIU, FAU.

College Town Conference: La Tech, UL, Arkansas St, USM, Troy, Georgia Southern, WKU, MT, App, Marshall, ODU, JMU

(Apologies to ULM and Coastal)
Norfolk is a college town? The greater metro area is well over a million people.

There's a few schools that might not fit the definition but would belong because of established rivalries. USA and ODU are pretty much interchangeable
04-08-2017 02:30 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
(04-08-2017 11:23 AM)EigenEagle Wrote:  If you're the Sun Belt, why do you entertain the idea of the merger or geographic reorganization? It's not the SBC that is scrambling to figure out what we're going to do because of lost TV money.

The value of the SBC TV contract is supposed to go up when it's renegotiatedbut even if we lose every penny of what the TV contract is worth we will have lost pocket change instead of close to a million dollars like CUSA.

I don't want any part of this merger, but I wouldn't be opposed to trying to entice, say, ODU or WKU to come over by the member schools pitching in for the exit fee.

03-lmfao Says who? The tooth fairy
04-08-2017 02:35 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
(04-08-2017 02:35 PM)Dawgxas Wrote:  03-lmfao Says who? The tooth fairy

Says people in a position to actually know.
04-08-2017 02:50 PM
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RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
Regionality has to be some part of this equation. However, what Harry proposed is preposterous. A number of the schools referenced are not fully committed to an all-sports paradigm.

The truth of the matter is this. Some schools already in C-USA and the Sun Belt are not fully committed. I'm not going to get into school naming but this is simply a fact.

There needs to be separation between a core group of schools that are fully committed to fielding winning football and basketball programs. Everyone talks commitment but actions often demonstrate otherwise. And this isn't necessarily about budget, because budgets are calculated different from school to school. I will make note of a few schools in this equation. UTEP should not be in a conference that has several teams in the eastern time zone and frankly is better situated as a MWC school. I believe there is rationale for the schools east of the Mississippi to be in a different league than those west of the river. The lone exception is La Tech. That's a school that would be pulled both ways. It is the one school west of the Mississippi that I believe the eastern schools could agree would likely be part of the core group of institutions. And I believe Tech might be willing to forego its Texas alliances if it meant it was in a stronger more vibrant league.

Just splitting schools between C-USA and Sun Belt is not a recipe for success. I'm sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings but because the NCAA and the CFP has turned this into a capitalist venture, a simple split is a non-starter in my opinion. Some schools may need to be left out of this shift like Idaho and NMSU, because they simply don't bring enough to the table to warrant being part of the solution. Otherwise, if all we do is reorganize two conferences, Middle Tennessee is almost assuredly in no better of a situation than we are in now but most likely worse. The sole benefit would only be that we no longer have to go to Texas but that, in and of itself, is not a reason to move. Travel is not a preponderance of our budget or most of our budgets. Could we save some money in a more regional conference? Yes, but at what cost? What are the other variables that when taking all aspects of this into account potentially make that type of change not amenable? A simple split could place us in an even weaker conference affiliation. If you only consider that one variable in the decision process all of our administration's leaders would make irreparable choices. It's paramount to simply rearranging the chairs of the Titanic.
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2017 03:21 PM by ThreeifbyLightning.)
04-08-2017 03:12 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
(04-08-2017 02:50 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 02:35 PM)Dawgxas Wrote:  03-lmfao Says who? The tooth fairy

Says people in a position to actually know.

So the Easter Bunny told you this?
04-08-2017 03:30 PM
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Artifice Offline
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RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
(04-08-2017 09:16 AM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  I'm not going to address the idea but rather the last line in the article that the financial model is broken. The financial model is broken because so called non profit educational institutions that control the power operate more like a cartel than a non profit. We are in these far flung leagues because we have chased money to stay competitive. We have chased money because of a flawed system that allows power and resources to be consolidated among only a handful of conferences. Not even the NFL and MLB operate this way and they actually are for profit entities. It's absurd that pro sports operates more like a non profit and collegiate sports operate more like an illegal transnational criminal organization.

I'm all for letting the market set some paremeters here. The SEC should get more than C-USA for a TV package because more people watch them but there should be caps and some shared revenue across all D1 for the TV money. But with that said the P5 leagues should not be getting 85% of all other revenues while the other five leagues scrape by with the remaining 15%. As usual no one is willing to step up and address the underlying problem instead focusing on a symptom of the bigger problem. And the media buys it hook, line and sinker every time.

Best post in this thread gets ignored.
04-08-2017 03:58 PM
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Artifice Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
(04-08-2017 10:56 AM)CoachMaclid Wrote:  Let's talk about the financial model being broken - and why his proposal at the bottom RE-CREATES the exact same broken financial model.

In the late 1990s and early 2000s, there were numerous incentives for conferences to move to 12 members. The rules at the time called for 12 members to be able to have a football championship game. For the BCS conferences this added significant money (and for the MAC at the time, it added another million to the deal) and it created a prime exclusive window on national television back in a time when there were only two major distributers and availability and exposure were more exclusive that now. Conferences had options to ether consolidate the footprint or expand into new markets and increase revenues during a time of exploding sponsorship and television deals.

That's not the market today. Conference football championship games have been deregulated, so long as you play a round robin you can have a title game. The market has changed that availability is everywhere and assumed, and ESPN has learned it doesn't need to overbid for rights. If you keep an autobid to the NCAA tournament, then the objective there is to keep the numbers as low as reasonable to decrease the number of ways to split the distribution. The travel expenses is not a primary reason to regionalize (replace La Tech with Ga Southern? guess what, my program is still flying to both destinations), but rather regionalization allows for development of Tier 3 deals, sponsorships, and the ability to generate attended basketball tournaments and finding people that want to bid on attracting regional teams.

Taking the C-USA and Sun Belt members into a bucket and simply splitting them out east vs west without regard to organic revenue or ability to generate dollars to justify a conference distribution split IS the financial model breakdown in this new environment of non-growth in television and sponsorship dollars. Any conference proposal larger than 8 or 9 schools is recreating the reason C-USA is struggling now.

The 5 northeast members of C-USA (Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, WKU, MTSU) need to get Southern Miss, UAB, and La Tech to play along with an 8 team league that finds some way to keep its share of the Access Bowl payout revenue. If you can't get everyone to play along, the next largest G5 revenue generators are Arkansas State and Louisiana-Layafette. Get 8 schools, get some decent OOC games to add to a package and have a conference football title game... that's the way forward. Getting back to 12 in any configuration is not an improvement over what we have today.

This would work, but the coaches want the FLA outpost; at least 1, but two lets each team play a road game in state every year. I like your general thought process though.
04-08-2017 04:10 PM
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MinerInWisconsin Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
(04-08-2017 12:35 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 12:12 PM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  Interesting that some school administrators reject the idea of minor sports regionalizing while leaving football and basketball alone. That alone would help the finances.

If it comes to reorganizing I would favor having the schools that need a tight geographic league to survive financially to go ahead and organize it, thus leaving the conference name and autobids to those that stay. I really don't think that Marshall, UAB, USM, LT, Rice or UTEP are in that situation. Those 5 along with at least 1 of the Florida schools and UNT, UTSA should stay and maybe eventually build to 10 from there.

Did you just pick some schools out of a hat? It's obvious you didn't put any real thought into it. If you did you would know that S. Miss and Tech are the two CUSA schools that are most budget challenged. Both do a great job, with their limited funds but I believe they have the 2 lowest budgets in CUSA. While Marshall has good fan support that are in the same boat as everyone else. And to top it off you added a school that just got a last second reprieve of their football program because of fiance.

Yeah, like I said...you put a ton of thought into that one.

I assume Snarky is your middle name, right?

The 5 schools in the conference the longest all have enough athletic revenue prior to adding in subsidies such as student fees, etc. to afford the travel necessary in C-USA. La Tech and USM included, even though their budgets are a bit smaller, their actual revenue is a higher proportion of it. I never hear complaints from those schools about travel or the other Texas or Florida schools. That's why I included them. So if there are schools that feel they need a much tighter conference, they should start one and best of luck to them.

All the schools that have joined this conference knew when they joined that it was spread out. If losing 1 million from the tv income means they can't afford it anymore, which I don't understand because that is only 1/30th of most budgets, then I guess they will need to form that tighter conference they want.
04-08-2017 04:32 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Harry Minium Suggests CUSA / Sunbelt Merger More or Less Inevitable
if I had my preference it would be

ODU
UNCC

WKU
MTSU

UAB
GA ST

USM
USA

FIU
FAU

Each member has a nearby conference foe. All schools are located on major interstates and for the most part near major airports. The Florida schools have made the investment in football and will improve.
04-08-2017 05:41 PM
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