(03-26-2017 06:37 PM)TubbyTime Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 06:35 PM)jgardne Wrote:  I don't care whether Cal wins or loses, but it was interesting to see he still has no idea what to do against a 2-3 zone. As soon as Carolina switched to that Kentucky didn't score for 5 minutes

I wonder how the Kentucky fans feel about Cal??

I am friends with four Kentucky fans, and not a single one likes Cal. All four have said they never wanted him in the first place and feel he has massively underachieved given the talent he has accumulated.

"Memphis can have him back and we'll take Gregg Marshall," one told me the other day.

His brother informed me that he's rooting for Vanderbilt now. He said Cal lost him after the potential 40-0 season when Cal claimed his main goal wasn't to win championships but to prepare young men for the future.

(03-27-2017 10:01 AM)HometownTiger Wrote:  Instead of blaming the refs, maybe Cal should've made sure his star players were in their rooms by curfew instead of at 152 until 2am the night before the game.

I think if that was true, it would be on every UK message board that exists.

(03-27-2017 10:35 AM)Johnny Betts Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 06:37 PM)TubbyTime Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 06:35 PM)jgardne Wrote:  I don't care whether Cal wins or loses, but it was interesting to see he still has no idea what to do against a 2-3 zone. As soon as Carolina switched to that Kentucky didn't score for 5 minutes

I wonder how the Kentucky fans feel about Cal??

I am friends with four Kentucky fans, and not a single one likes Cal. All four have said they never wanted him in the first place and feel he has massively underachieved given the talent he has accumulated.

"Memphis can have him back and we'll take Gregg Marshall," one told me the other day.

His brother informed me that he's rooting for Vanderbilt now. He said Cal lost him after the potential 40-0 season when Cal claimed his main goal wasn't to win championships but to prepare young men for the future.

KY fans expect a NC every year. Anything else is underachieving.

(03-27-2017 08:35 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 10:17 PM)Crazier Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 08:07 PM)Unionman76 Wrote:  Never in the field of basketball was so little done with so much talent

Pastner? Cal has a championship and goes on nice runs in the tournament every now and then.

Last 12 seasons:

Elite 8
Elite 8
National Runner Up
Sweet 16
Elite 8
Final Four
National Champions
NIT
National Runner Up
Final Four
Second Round
Elite 8

That is three national title games and nine Elite 8 or better in last 12 years.

(03-26-2017 10:17 PM)Crazier Wrote:  Granted any other coach would probably have 3 championships with the talent he gets.

In that same 12 years, Coach K has won two NC's. Also been knocked out in the 1st weekend 5 of last 12 years.

He's been to Elite 8 or beyond three of last 12 years. Duke hasn't "played to seed" eight of the last 12 years in the NCAA.

Cal has had some great success, no doubt.

That said, he's had the best team and #1 recruiting class numerous times. And, he has 1 title to show for it.

Give Coach K, Huggy Bear, Dana Altman, and about a dozen others his roster for the past 15 seasons and every one of them would have 3 or more titles.

They get a NC every 10 years. Hall, Pitino, Tubby, Cal - they all got their one right on pace. Gillespie and Sutton weren't there long enough. Haven't had a multiple NC coach since Rupp. Cal gets one within the next 2 years, he breaks the trend.

I suspect if he doesn't get one the next 2 years, the grumbling will increase.

(03-27-2017 11:03 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 08:35 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 10:17 PM)Crazier Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 08:07 PM)Unionman76 Wrote:  Never in the field of basketball was so little done with so much talent

Pastner? Cal has a championship and goes on nice runs in the tournament every now and then.

Last 12 seasons:

Elite 8
Elite 8
National Runner Up
Sweet 16
Elite 8
Final Four
National Champions
NIT
National Runner Up
Final Four
Second Round
Elite 8

That is three national title games and nine Elite 8 or better in last 12 years.

(03-26-2017 10:17 PM)Crazier Wrote:  Granted any other coach would probably have 3 championships with the talent he gets.

In that same 12 years, Coach K has won two NC's. Also been knocked out in the 1st weekend 5 of last 12 years.

He's been to Elite 8 or beyond three of last 12 years. Duke hasn't "played to seed" eight of the last 12 years in the NCAA.

Cal has had some great success, no doubt.

That said, he's had the best team and #1 recruiting class numerous times. And, he has 1 title to show for it.

Give Coach K, Huggy Bear, Dana Altman, and about a dozen others his roster for the past 15 seasons and every one of them would have 3 or more titles.

I understand your logic, BUT the fact remains it sorta flies in the face of reality when you look and note that K has failed to get out of the 1st weekend in 5 of the last 12 seasons as a 6,2,2,3, and 2 seed.

The argument is "give K overwhelming talent and he will prevail." Certainly being a 2 or 3 seed in a game vs. a 14, 13, or 7 seed would be one where he had an overwhelming talent advantage, yet he still lost--several times.

K has failed to take Duke to seed expectations 8 of the last 12 years while Cal has MET/SURPASSED his seed expectation 7 of the last 11 NCAAt's.

Obviously, being the higher seed already implies one is the "better" team and the fact Duke is historically a top 5 recruiter, and the institutional and historical advantages are tremendous. Yet, 67% of the time K doesn't meet his seed expectation.

(03-27-2017 11:03 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 08:35 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 10:17 PM)Crazier Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 08:07 PM)Unionman76 Wrote:  Never in the field of basketball was so little done with so much talent

Pastner? Cal has a championship and goes on nice runs in the tournament every now and then.

Last 12 seasons:

Elite 8
Elite 8
National Runner Up
Sweet 16
Elite 8
Final Four
National Champions
NIT
National Runner Up
Final Four
Second Round
Elite 8

That is three national title games and nine Elite 8 or better in last 12 years.

(03-26-2017 10:17 PM)Crazier Wrote:  Granted any other coach would probably have 3 championships with the talent he gets.

In that same 12 years, Coach K has won two NC's. Also been knocked out in the 1st weekend 5 of last 12 years.

He's been to Elite 8 or beyond three of last 12 years. Duke hasn't "played to seed" eight of the last 12 years in the NCAA.

Cal has had some great success, no doubt.

That said, he's had the best team and #1 recruiting class numerous times. And, he has 1 title to show for it.

Give Coach K, Huggy Bear, Dana Altman, and about a dozen others his roster for the past 15 seasons and every one of them would have 3 or more titles.

They can't get those players though. So the point is moot. K gets those players and has 1 more title during this same period. Self and Roy get those same players and neither has a title during that period. I guess Roy and Self are just better coaches because they never "left" us.

(03-27-2017 11:10 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:03 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 08:35 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 10:17 PM)Crazier Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 08:07 PM)Unionman76 Wrote:  Never in the field of basketball was so little done with so much talent

Pastner? Cal has a championship and goes on nice runs in the tournament every now and then.

Last 12 seasons:

Elite 8
Elite 8
National Runner Up
Sweet 16
Elite 8
Final Four
National Champions
NIT
National Runner Up
Final Four
Second Round
Elite 8

That is three national title games and nine Elite 8 or better in last 12 years.

(03-26-2017 10:17 PM)Crazier Wrote:  Granted any other coach would probably have 3 championships with the talent he gets.

In that same 12 years, Coach K has won two NC's. Also been knocked out in the 1st weekend 5 of last 12 years.

He's been to Elite 8 or beyond three of last 12 years. Duke hasn't "played to seed" eight of the last 12 years in the NCAA.

Cal has had some great success, no doubt.

That said, he's had the best team and #1 recruiting class numerous times. And, he has 1 title to show for it.

Give Coach K, Huggy Bear, Dana Altman, and about a dozen others his roster for the past 15 seasons and every one of them would have 3 or more titles.

I understand your logic, BUT the fact remains it sorta flies in the face of reality when you look and note that K has failed to get out of the 1st weekend in 5 of the last 12 seasons as a 6,2,2,3, and 2 seed.

The argument is "give K overwhelming talent and he will prevail." Certainly being a 2 or 3 seed in a game vs. a 14, 13, or 7 seed would be one where he had an overwhelming talent advantage, yet he still lost--several times.

K has failed to take Duke to seed expectations 8 of the last 12 year. Obviously, being the higher seed already implies one is the "better" team and the fact Duke is historically a top 5 recruiter, and the institutional and historical advantages are tremendous. Yet, 67% of the time K doesn't meet his seed expectation.

Coach K - 5 titles.
Coach Cal - 1 title.

(03-27-2017 11:12 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:10 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:03 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 08:35 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 10:17 PM)Crazier Wrote:  Pastner? Cal has a championship and goes on nice runs in the tournament every now and then.

Last 12 seasons:

Elite 8
Elite 8
National Runner Up
Sweet 16
Elite 8
Final Four
National Champions
NIT
National Runner Up
Final Four
Second Round
Elite 8

That is three national title games and nine Elite 8 or better in last 12 years.

(03-26-2017 10:17 PM)Crazier Wrote:  Granted any other coach would probably have 3 championships with the talent he gets.

In that same 12 years, Coach K has won two NC's. Also been knocked out in the 1st weekend 5 of last 12 years.

He's been to Elite 8 or beyond three of last 12 years. Duke hasn't "played to seed" eight of the last 12 years in the NCAA.

Cal has had some great success, no doubt.

That said, he's had the best team and #1 recruiting class numerous times. And, he has 1 title to show for it.

Give Coach K, Huggy Bear, Dana Altman, and about a dozen others his roster for the past 15 seasons and every one of them would have 3 or more titles.

I understand your logic, BUT the fact remains it sorta flies in the face of reality when you look and note that K has failed to get out of the 1st weekend in 5 of the last 12 seasons as a 6,2,2,3, and 2 seed.

The argument is "give K overwhelming talent and he will prevail." Certainly being a 2 or 3 seed in a game vs. a 14, 13, or 7 seed would be one where he had an overwhelming talent advantage, yet he still lost--several times.

K has failed to take Duke to seed expectations 8 of the last 12 year. Obviously, being the higher seed already implies one is the "better" team and the fact Duke is historically a top 5 recruiter, and the institutional and historical advantages are tremendous. Yet, 67% of the time K doesn't meet his seed expectation.

Coach K - 5 titles.
Coach Cal - 1 title.

Coach K has been at a blue blood just a little bit longer. How many titles did he win in his first 8 years?

(03-27-2017 11:14 AM)VinnieVegas Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:12 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:10 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:03 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 08:35 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  Last 12 seasons:

Elite 8
Elite 8
National Runner Up
Sweet 16
Elite 8
Final Four
National Champions
NIT
National Runner Up
Final Four
Second Round
Elite 8

That is three national title games and nine Elite 8 or better in last 12 years.


In that same 12 years, Coach K has won two NC's. Also been knocked out in the 1st weekend 5 of last 12 years.

He's been to Elite 8 or beyond three of last 12 years. Duke hasn't "played to seed" eight of the last 12 years in the NCAA.

Cal has had some great success, no doubt.

That said, he's had the best team and #1 recruiting class numerous times. And, he has 1 title to show for it.

Give Coach K, Huggy Bear, Dana Altman, and about a dozen others his roster for the past 15 seasons and every one of them would have 3 or more titles.

I understand your logic, BUT the fact remains it sorta flies in the face of reality when you look and note that K has failed to get out of the 1st weekend in 5 of the last 12 seasons as a 6,2,2,3, and 2 seed.

The argument is "give K overwhelming talent and he will prevail." Certainly being a 2 or 3 seed in a game vs. a 14, 13, or 7 seed would be one where he had an overwhelming talent advantage, yet he still lost--several times.

K has failed to take Duke to seed expectations 8 of the last 12 year. Obviously, being the higher seed already implies one is the "better" team and the fact Duke is historically a top 5 recruiter, and the institutional and historical advantages are tremendous. Yet, 67% of the time K doesn't meet his seed expectation.

Coach K - 5 titles.
Coach Cal - 1 title.

Coach K has been at a blue blood just a little bit longer. How many titles did he win in his first 8 years?

Coach Cal is a GREAT salesman and recruiter. I totally agree with you.

But, if you're trying to tell me he's ANYWHERE near a Coach K (or even Huggins), there's no point in a discussion.

38

(03-27-2017 11:12 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:10 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:03 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 08:35 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-26-2017 10:17 PM)Crazier Wrote:  Pastner? Cal has a championship and goes on nice runs in the tournament every now and then.

Last 12 seasons:

Elite 8
Elite 8
National Runner Up
Sweet 16
Elite 8
Final Four
National Champions
NIT
National Runner Up
Final Four
Second Round
Elite 8

That is three national title games and nine Elite 8 or better in last 12 years.

(03-26-2017 10:17 PM)Crazier Wrote:  Granted any other coach would probably have 3 championships with the talent he gets.

In that same 12 years, Coach K has won two NC's. Also been knocked out in the 1st weekend 5 of last 12 years.

He's been to Elite 8 or beyond three of last 12 years. Duke hasn't "played to seed" eight of the last 12 years in the NCAA.

Cal has had some great success, no doubt.

That said, he's had the best team and #1 recruiting class numerous times. And, he has 1 title to show for it.

Give Coach K, Huggy Bear, Dana Altman, and about a dozen others his roster for the past 15 seasons and every one of them would have 3 or more titles.

I understand your logic, BUT the fact remains it sorta flies in the face of reality when you look and note that K has failed to get out of the 1st weekend in 5 of the last 12 seasons as a 6,2,2,3, and 2 seed.

The argument is "give K overwhelming talent and he will prevail." Certainly being a 2 or 3 seed in a game vs. a 14, 13, or 7 seed would be one where he had an overwhelming talent advantage, yet he still lost--several times.

K has failed to take Duke to seed expectations 8 of the last 12 year. Obviously, being the higher seed already implies one is the "better" team and the fact Duke is historically a top 5 recruiter, and the institutional and historical advantages are tremendous. Yet, 67% of the time K doesn't meet his seed expectation.

Coach K - 5 titles.
Coach Cal - 1 title.

True. He's also been at it a lot longer. In the last 10-12 years, Cal has been much more consistent in the tourney. K is a risk/reward bet. Odd to say that, but the results bear that out.

Since 2006:
Cal
Average seed: 2.27
Average wins in tourney: 3.55
Final Four+: 5
1st weekend exits: 1

Since 2006:
K
Average seed: 2.25
Average wins in tourney: 2.08
Final Four+: 2
1st weekend exits: 5

somewhat related: cal speaks out against grad transfers:

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/spo.../99618196/

(03-27-2017 09:11 AM)shere khan Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 09:09 AM)VinnieVegas Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 09:05 AM)tiger2000 Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 09:02 AM)VinnieVegas Wrote:  I just love how a few posters here complain about the NCAA and then in turn use the "vacated" excuse just to trash Cal. Keep up the good work lol

Visting here is like going to the county fair. Virtual people watching at its finest.

Lol

The infamous "Surrender Cobra"!

(03-27-2017 11:27 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:12 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:10 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:03 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 08:35 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  Last 12 seasons:

Elite 8
Elite 8
National Runner Up
Sweet 16
Elite 8
Final Four
National Champions
NIT
National Runner Up
Final Four
Second Round
Elite 8

That is three national title games and nine Elite 8 or better in last 12 years.


In that same 12 years, Coach K has won two NC's. Also been knocked out in the 1st weekend 5 of last 12 years.

He's been to Elite 8 or beyond three of last 12 years. Duke hasn't "played to seed" eight of the last 12 years in the NCAA.

Cal has had some great success, no doubt.

That said, he's had the best team and #1 recruiting class numerous times. And, he has 1 title to show for it.

Give Coach K, Huggy Bear, Dana Altman, and about a dozen others his roster for the past 15 seasons and every one of them would have 3 or more titles.

I understand your logic, BUT the fact remains it sorta flies in the face of reality when you look and note that K has failed to get out of the 1st weekend in 5 of the last 12 seasons as a 6,2,2,3, and 2 seed.

The argument is "give K overwhelming talent and he will prevail." Certainly being a 2 or 3 seed in a game vs. a 14, 13, or 7 seed would be one where he had an overwhelming talent advantage, yet he still lost--several times.

K has failed to take Duke to seed expectations 8 of the last 12 year. Obviously, being the higher seed already implies one is the "better" team and the fact Duke is historically a top 5 recruiter, and the institutional and historical advantages are tremendous. Yet, 67% of the time K doesn't meet his seed expectation.

Coach K - 5 titles.
Coach Cal - 1 title.

True. He's also been at it a lot longer. In the last 10-12 years, Cal has been much more consistent in the tourney. K is a risk/reward bet. Odd to say that, but the results bear that out.

Since 2006:
Cal
Average seed: 2.27
Average wins in tourney: 3.55
Final Four+: 5
1st weekend exits: 1

Since 2006:
K
Average seed: 2.25
Average wins in tourney: 2.08
Final Four+: 2
1st weekend exits: 5

I'll be interested on how Cal adapts to a much tougher SEC in the future. He's not going to keep getting #1 seeds with a couple of conference losses a year.

We might have seen peak Cal.

(03-27-2017 11:17 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  Coach Cal is a GREAT salesman and recruiter. I totally agree with you.

But, if you're trying to tell me he's ANYWHERE near a Coach K (or even Huggins), there's no point in a discussion.

It just depends on how you value that?

Should a great coach be able to meet seed expectations? Should a great coach be able to get a 2 or 3 seed out of the 1st weekend.

In the last 10 times Coach K has been a 2 or 3 seed, he has failed to get out of the 1st weekend SIX of those times. That is an abysmal failure rate (60%) for a 2 or 3 seed.

Cal has been a 2 or 3 seed 11 times in his career. He's gotten out of the first weekend NINE of those time for a success rate of 82%).

(03-27-2017 11:32 AM)Memphomaniac Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 09:11 AM)shere khan Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 09:09 AM)VinnieVegas Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 09:05 AM)tiger2000 Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 09:02 AM)VinnieVegas Wrote:  I just love how a few posters here complain about the NCAA and then in turn use the "vacated" excuse just to trash Cal. Keep up the good work lol

Visting here is like going to the county fair. Virtual people watching at its finest.

Lol

The infamous "Surrender Cobra"!

At least he had his boyfriends jersey

(03-27-2017 11:35 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:17 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  Coach Cal is a GREAT salesman and recruiter. I totally agree with you.

But, if you're trying to tell me he's ANYWHERE near a Coach K (or even Huggins), there's no point in a discussion.

It just depends on how you value that?

Should a great coach be able to meet seed expectations? Should a great coach be able to get a 2 or 3 seed out of the 1st weekend.

In the last 10 times Coach K has been a 2 or 3 seed, he has failed to get out of the 1st weekend SIX of those times. That is an abysmal failure rate (60%) for a 2 or 3 seed.

Cal has been a 2 or 3 seed 11 times in his career. He's gotten out of the first weekend NINE of those time for a success rate of 82%).

OK. You win.

Cal is the best.

(03-27-2017 11:31 AM)tiger2000 Wrote:  somewhat related: cal speaks out against grad transfers:

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/spo.../99618196/

Parenting is a *****

(03-27-2017 11:34 AM)FlyingTiger2016 Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:27 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:12 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:10 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(03-27-2017 11:03 AM)oruvoice Wrote:  Cal has had some great success, no doubt.

That said, he's had the best team and #1 recruiting class numerous times. And, he has 1 title to show for it.

Give Coach K, Huggy Bear, Dana Altman, and about a dozen others his roster for the past 15 seasons and every one of them would have 3 or more titles.

I understand your logic, BUT the fact remains it sorta flies in the face of reality when you look and note that K has failed to get out of the 1st weekend in 5 of the last 12 seasons as a 6,2,2,3, and 2 seed.

The argument is "give K overwhelming talent and he will prevail." Certainly being a 2 or 3 seed in a game vs. a 14, 13, or 7 seed would be one where he had an overwhelming talent advantage, yet he still lost--several times.

K has failed to take Duke to seed expectations 8 of the last 12 year. Obviously, being the higher seed already implies one is the "better" team and the fact Duke is historically a top 5 recruiter, and the institutional and historical advantages are tremendous. Yet, 67% of the time K doesn't meet his seed expectation.

Coach K - 5 titles.
Coach Cal - 1 title.

True. He's also been at it a lot longer. In the last 10-12 years, Cal has been much more consistent in the tourney. K is a risk/reward bet. Odd to say that, but the results bear that out.

Since 2006:
Cal
Average seed: 2.27
Average wins in tourney: 3.55
Final Four+: 5
1st weekend exits: 1

Since 2006:
K
Average seed: 2.25
Average wins in tourney: 2.08
Final Four+: 2
1st weekend exits: 5

I'll be interested on how Cal adapts to a much tougher SEC in the future. He's not going to keep getting #1 seeds with a couple of conference losses a year.

We might have seen peak Cal.

He will still dominate. The sec had a good tournament. One good tournament don't make a conference