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North Dakota Fighting Sioux
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TerryD Online
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Post: #21
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-27-2017 03:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 10:22 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 09:23 AM)72Tiger Wrote:  Fighting Irish is okay, but Fighting Sioux isn't.

First part, yep.

Second part, it is with me.


P.S. This comes up every time the "Fighting Sioux" issue is discussed.

Terry, I don't think anyone questions the legitimacy of the Fighting Irish. I think people who say "Fighting Irish is ok, but Fighting Sioux isn't" are those who support both names.

Personally I think that it is sad that Native Americans have practically disappeared from our cultural landscape. There are just as many Native Americans as there are Jewish Americans or Chinese Americans, and a lot more than Muslim Americans. But when did we last celebrate a Jim Thorpe or a Chief Bender? Where is the modern Indian equivalent of Jeremy Lin or Ryan Braun? They're just sort of ignored, and this drive to eliminate their mascots goes even further to making them invisible.

Agreed. I represented an Indian tribe for over five years and helped get them Federal Recognition.
03-27-2017 06:01 PM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #22
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-27-2017 02:57 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-25-2017 05:43 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(03-25-2017 01:34 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Sioux tops will be at UND events for decades to come. I don't blame them, I don't look down upon it, and yet I also don't support it.

UND has to sell some old time jerseys periodically, or else their trademark runs out and anybody can sell Fighting Sioux jerseys. Jerseys were a big time royalty maker, as they are ten times more expensive than t-shirts. A UND FS Jersey is the de facto clothing at UND games.

Illinois has the same "problem" with ownership of the trademark. My friend tells me that they solve it by only selling cheap things with the Chief Illiniwek logo (like stickers). Although I did find a T-shirt for $23 online:

https://www.fansedge.com/original-retro-.../p-2182444

Still one of the best logos in college sports IMO

Too bad it got sacrificed to PC culture
03-27-2017 09:56 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #23
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-27-2017 06:01 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 03:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 10:22 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 09:23 AM)72Tiger Wrote:  Fighting Irish is okay, but Fighting Sioux isn't.

First part, yep.

Second part, it is with me.


P.S. This comes up every time the "Fighting Sioux" issue is discussed.

Terry, I don't think anyone questions the legitimacy of the Fighting Irish. I think people who say "Fighting Irish is ok, but Fighting Sioux isn't" are those who support both names.

Personally I think that it is sad that Native Americans have practically disappeared from our cultural landscape. There are just as many Native Americans as there are Jewish Americans or Chinese Americans, and a lot more than Muslim Americans. But when did we last celebrate a Jim Thorpe or a Chief Bender? Where is the modern Indian equivalent of Jeremy Lin or Ryan Braun? They're just sort of ignored, and this drive to eliminate their mascots goes even further to making them invisible.

Agreed. I represented an Indian tribe for over five years and helped get them Federal Recognition.
The reservation system was the earliest form of blatant socialism. Natives on the Rez don't have housing ownership or personal land property rights for the most part. Banks are almost non existant there as are businesses and the concept of entrepreunership. And some how Native Americans are supposed to prosper based on government handouts? Karl Marx would be proud of that system.
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2017 10:52 PM by NoDak.)
03-27-2017 10:35 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #24
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-27-2017 10:35 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 06:01 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 03:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 10:22 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 09:23 AM)72Tiger Wrote:  Fighting Irish is okay, but Fighting Sioux isn't.

First part, yep.

Second part, it is with me.


P.S. This comes up every time the "Fighting Sioux" issue is discussed.

Terry, I don't think anyone questions the legitimacy of the Fighting Irish. I think people who say "Fighting Irish is ok, but Fighting Sioux isn't" are those who support both names.

Personally I think that it is sad that Native Americans have practically disappeared from our cultural landscape. There are just as many Native Americans as there are Jewish Americans or Chinese Americans, and a lot more than Muslim Americans. But when did we last celebrate a Jim Thorpe or a Chief Bender? Where is the modern Indian equivalent of Jeremy Lin or Ryan Braun? They're just sort of ignored, and this drive to eliminate their mascots goes even further to making them invisible.

Agreed. I represented an Indian tribe for over five years and helped get them Federal Recognition.
The reservation system was the earliest form of blatant socialism. Natives on the Rez don't have housing ownership or personal land property rights for the most part. Banks are almost non existant there as are businesses and the concept of entrepreunership. And some how Native Americans are supposed to prosper based on government handouts? Karl Marx would be proud of that system.

I agree completely.

Here's the thing - 100 or even 50 years ago the outcome was the federal government's fault. I'm no expert but it seems that today, the reservation system is pretty much controlled by the Indian tribes themselves. If a tribe wanted a fully capitalist system (including private land ownership), they could probably set one up. They'd have better economic outcomes, but they fear they'd lose central control of their land to outside interests. In other words, there's tradeoffs involved.

Bottom line is that it's their democratic choice to have an inferior economic system, and it would be wrong for the rest of the country to impose a different system on them.
03-28-2017 01:59 PM
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mturn017 Online
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Post: #25
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-27-2017 10:35 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 06:01 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 03:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 10:22 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 09:23 AM)72Tiger Wrote:  Fighting Irish is okay, but Fighting Sioux isn't.

First part, yep.

Second part, it is with me.


P.S. This comes up every time the "Fighting Sioux" issue is discussed.

Terry, I don't think anyone questions the legitimacy of the Fighting Irish. I think people who say "Fighting Irish is ok, but Fighting Sioux isn't" are those who support both names.

Personally I think that it is sad that Native Americans have practically disappeared from our cultural landscape. There are just as many Native Americans as there are Jewish Americans or Chinese Americans, and a lot more than Muslim Americans. But when did we last celebrate a Jim Thorpe or a Chief Bender? Where is the modern Indian equivalent of Jeremy Lin or Ryan Braun? They're just sort of ignored, and this drive to eliminate their mascots goes even further to making them invisible.

Agreed. I represented an Indian tribe for over five years and helped get them Federal Recognition.
The reservation system was the earliest form of blatant socialism. Natives on the Rez don't have housing ownership or personal land property rights for the most part. Banks are almost non existant there as are businesses and the concept of entrepreunership. And some how Native Americans are supposed to prosper based on government handouts? Karl Marx would be proud of that system.


Pretty sure that's how they were living before Europeans arrived and got by just fine.
03-28-2017 02:28 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #26
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-28-2017 02:28 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 10:35 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 06:01 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 03:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 10:22 AM)TerryD Wrote:  First part, yep.

Second part, it is with me.


P.S. This comes up every time the "Fighting Sioux" issue is discussed.

Terry, I don't think anyone questions the legitimacy of the Fighting Irish. I think people who say "Fighting Irish is ok, but Fighting Sioux isn't" are those who support both names.

Personally I think that it is sad that Native Americans have practically disappeared from our cultural landscape. There are just as many Native Americans as there are Jewish Americans or Chinese Americans, and a lot more than Muslim Americans. But when did we last celebrate a Jim Thorpe or a Chief Bender? Where is the modern Indian equivalent of Jeremy Lin or Ryan Braun? They're just sort of ignored, and this drive to eliminate their mascots goes even further to making them invisible.

Agreed. I represented an Indian tribe for over five years and helped get them Federal Recognition.
The reservation system was the earliest form of blatant socialism. Natives on the Rez don't have housing ownership or personal land property rights for the most part. Banks are almost non existant there as are businesses and the concept of entrepreunership. And some how Native Americans are supposed to prosper based on government handouts? Karl Marx would be proud of that system.


Pretty sure that's how they were living before Europeans arrived and got by just fine.

As long as warring tribal groups is considered fine by you. Clearly some tribes were master traders, but not today..
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2017 03:18 PM by NoDak.)
03-28-2017 03:14 PM
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MinerInWisconsin Offline
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Post: #27
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-28-2017 02:28 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 10:35 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 06:01 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 03:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 10:22 AM)TerryD Wrote:  First part, yep.

Second part, it is with me.


P.S. This comes up every time the "Fighting Sioux" issue is discussed.

Terry, I don't think anyone questions the legitimacy of the Fighting Irish. I think people who say "Fighting Irish is ok, but Fighting Sioux isn't" are those who support both names.

Personally I think that it is sad that Native Americans have practically disappeared from our cultural landscape. There are just as many Native Americans as there are Jewish Americans or Chinese Americans, and a lot more than Muslim Americans. But when did we last celebrate a Jim Thorpe or a Chief Bender? Where is the modern Indian equivalent of Jeremy Lin or Ryan Braun? They're just sort of ignored, and this drive to eliminate their mascots goes even further to making them invisible.

Agreed. I represented an Indian tribe for over five years and helped get them Federal Recognition.
The reservation system was the earliest form of blatant socialism. Natives on the Rez don't have housing ownership or personal land property rights for the most part. Banks are almost non existant there as are businesses and the concept of entrepreunership. And some how Native Americans are supposed to prosper based on government handouts? Karl Marx would be proud of that system.


Pretty sure that's how they were living before Europeans arrived and got by just fine.

May have been communal or collective but not given anything. The tribes had to earn everything they had and they had the dignity that goes with that. Totally different environment now.
03-28-2017 03:16 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #28
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-28-2017 03:14 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(03-28-2017 02:28 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 10:35 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 06:01 PM)TerryD Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 03:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Terry, I don't think anyone questions the legitimacy of the Fighting Irish. I think people who say "Fighting Irish is ok, but Fighting Sioux isn't" are those who support both names.

Personally I think that it is sad that Native Americans have practically disappeared from our cultural landscape. There are just as many Native Americans as there are Jewish Americans or Chinese Americans, and a lot more than Muslim Americans. But when did we last celebrate a Jim Thorpe or a Chief Bender? Where is the modern Indian equivalent of Jeremy Lin or Ryan Braun? They're just sort of ignored, and this drive to eliminate their mascots goes even further to making them invisible.

Agreed. I represented an Indian tribe for over five years and helped get them Federal Recognition.
The reservation system was the earliest form of blatant socialism. Natives on the Rez don't have housing ownership or personal land property rights for the most part. Banks are almost non existant there as are businesses and the concept of entrepreunership. And some how Native Americans are supposed to prosper based on government handouts? Karl Marx would be proud of that system.


Pretty sure that's how they were living before Europeans arrived and got by just fine.

As long as warring tribal groups is considered fine by you. Clearly some tribes were master traders, but not today..

There's zero record of the economic system among the people who lived north of Central Mexico until at least 1600. By that time the society was completely changed by European diseases (mostly spread from de Soto's pigs during his disastrous expedition in the 1540s) that repeatedly ravaged the population. Even oral histories are viewed as almost completely unreliable because there were so many waves of disease that would kill half of the parents.

Even after 1620 that the only real record keepers for many decades were Jesuits who were more interested in conversion than in documenting the way of life.

So we really have no idea what Indian governments or economics were like, other than basic knowledge about which goods were traded over long distances.
03-28-2017 04:56 PM
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westwolf Offline
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Post: #29
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
This PC business has gotten out of hand.
03-28-2017 05:19 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #30
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
(03-28-2017 04:56 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-28-2017 03:14 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(03-28-2017 02:28 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 10:35 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(03-27-2017 06:01 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Agreed. I represented an Indian tribe for over five years and helped get them Federal Recognition.
The reservation system was the earliest form of blatant socialism. Natives on the Rez don't have housing ownership or personal land property rights for the most part. Banks are almost non existant there as are businesses and the concept of entrepreunership. And some how Native Americans are supposed to prosper based on government handouts? Karl Marx would be proud of that system.


Pretty sure that's how they were living before Europeans arrived and got by just fine.

As long as warring tribal groups is considered fine by you. Clearly some tribes were master traders, but not today..

There's zero record of the economic system among the people who lived north of Central Mexico until at least 1600. By that time the society was completely changed by European diseases (mostly spread from de Soto's pigs during his disastrous expedition in the 1540s) that repeatedly ravaged the population. Even oral histories are viewed as almost completely unreliable because there were so many waves of disease that would kill half of the parents.

Even after 1620 that the only real record keepers for many decades were Jesuits who were more interested in conversion than in documenting the way of life.

So we really have no idea what Indian governments or economics were like, other than basic knowledge about which goods were traded over long distances.

Agree that de Soto's journey in the Mississippi Valley caused innumerable Indian deaths by diseases from pigs. One of the agrarian tribes in North Dakota supposedly left Cahokia, Illinois as a result of widespread disease, as pigs wouldn't survive the winter there. The popuation declined immensely with no northern European settlements. Horses introduced by the Spanish also had a major impact on Indian cultures, both good and bad.

But as the book Guns, Germs, and Steel documents, developed agrarian states with domesticated animals often wiped out other people's unintentionally.
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2017 08:07 PM by NoDak.)
03-28-2017 08:03 PM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #31
RE: North Dakota Fighting Sioux
This is true. People forget the basic fact the agrarian societies have adapted to a host of diseases due to living with and raising live stock for hundreds of generations but that immunity (and even the concept of "germs" was not at all understood at the time
03-28-2017 09:23 PM
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