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Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
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Post: #21
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-24-2017 11:38 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-24-2017 11:28 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  That's nice. I don't know what Freeh's quoted statements have to do with law or a critique of law, but ok, you want to deflect I guess. What his statements indicate is that he understands the culture and problems endemic to State College all too well.

I know your talking points ---- "cult", "Joe-Bots", "problems endemic to State College", "care about nothing at all except football", et cetera ....

Carry on.

There was definitely a sick culture. I don't know that it was all really "football," per se. Similar cultures exist in a number of places where you don't even question those connected to certain people (Enron, Boston diocese). Janitors were afraid to report on someone connected to Paterno (even though Paterno apparently didn't really like him). McQueary went to Paterno, not the police. Nobody, including Paterno, asked why Sandusky was still hanging around campus. Curley had his dossier and still didn't insist on Sandusky being reported to the police for them to investigate again.
03-25-2017 08:24 AM
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ken d Online
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RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-24-2017 09:57 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-24-2017 09:51 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  Really, just what any non-brainwashed human being with a soul and and any idea about what happened, and is happening there, thinks about the situation.

Well, I'm a believer in the afterlife. The guilty don't escape justice in that world. As such, I'm not worried about people escaping justice as regards this case.

As for this world, the verdict is what it is. The Commonwealth proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt as regards 1 count, but did not as regards the other 2 counts. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard. That may not be perfect, but it's worked here in America for 240+ years.

Freeh's statement indicates he doesn't understand basic American law. Surprising given his background.

In what way do you believe that statement indicates Freeh doesn't understand basic American law? I am not a lawyer myself, as you seem to be, so please explain it to me.
03-25-2017 09:27 AM
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Post: #23
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-25-2017 09:27 AM)ken d Wrote:  In what way do you believe that statement indicates Freeh doesn't understand basic American law? I am not a lawyer myself, as you seem to be, so please explain it to me.

Graham Spanier does not get to thrown in prison on conspiracy charges just because Louis Freeh investigated things and came to that conclusion.

He only gets to get thrown in prison on conspiracy charges if he is found guilty in a court of law.

Freeh appears to prefer his OWN version of justice as regards Spanier.
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2017 10:03 AM by Nittany_Bearcat.)
03-25-2017 10:02 AM
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Post: #24
Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
Where is bison?, he always wants to defend these penn st people and baylor at all cost and now that we have real convictions at penn he is no where to be seen or is this nittany-bearcat= todge rodge= bison and a few others
I think this person just starts a new name and leaves the old when his arguments don't hold up to reality as this has happened a lot to this hack!
Ken Starr ex president at Baylor will be next to be convicted
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2017 10:11 AM by JHS55.)
03-25-2017 10:09 AM
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ken d Online
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Post: #25
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-25-2017 10:02 AM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-25-2017 09:27 AM)ken d Wrote:  In what way do you believe that statement indicates Freeh doesn't understand basic American law? I am not a lawyer myself, as you seem to be, so please explain it to me.

Graham Spanier does not get to thrown in prison on conspiracy charges just because Louis Freeh investigated things and came to that conclusion.

He only gets to get thrown in prison on conspiracy charges if he is found guilty in a court of law.

Freeh appears to prefer his OWN version of justice as regards Spanier.

I must be missing something in the quoted statement. I don't see your point anywhere in that statement. Can you point it out to me? BTW, are you, in fact, a lawyer?
03-25-2017 10:32 AM
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Post: #26
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-25-2017 10:09 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  defend these penn st people and baylor at all cost

I've never defended convicted criminals, or those accused of crimes, at all costs. 03-banghead
03-25-2017 01:52 PM
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RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
Individuals committed crimes. Evidence proving the crimes was investigated, compiled, and presented. The criminals were convicted or plead guilty.

The system worked exactly as it was supposed to.


And that's that. Nothing more can rightly be said about the situation.

And even going above and beyond, Penn St paid almost $50M (?? something like that) to support programs for abused kids.

Truly, the situation has been rectified, and justice has been served, to the fullest, highest possible extent that could ever be rendered.



Yet there are still some cowards on here who want blood from turnips.

TOO BAD!
(This post was last modified: 03-25-2017 01:54 PM by MplsBison.)
03-25-2017 01:54 PM
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RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-24-2017 09:47 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-24-2017 09:28 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  Louis Freeh released a 2-page statement today after the conviction with the following statements that he got EXACTLY right:


“Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz and Timothy Curley were the most powerful men who ran the Pennsylvania State University. Today, they are convicted criminals. And Joe Paterno’s once iconic legacy is forever marred by his own decision to do nothing when he had the chance to make a real difference.”

“[Current PSU President] Barron and a coterie of ‘Paterno denier’ board members, alumni, cult-like groups such as Penn Staters for Responsible Stewardship, a former professional football player, and certain elected state political hacks, have been nothing but apologists for Paterno, Spanier, Schultz and Curley, more concerned about bringing back a bronze statue than worrying about the multiple child victims who have forever been so grievously harmed on the PSU campus,” he wrote. “Barron can do one, last good act of service to PSU by resigning, and taking along with him board members like Anthony P. Lubrano and Albert L. Lord, who have no vision for PSU except a ‘rear-view’ one.”

Some nice juicy red meat for certain folk, no doubt.

Freeh's being sued by Spanier for defamation, of course. We'll see how that one goes ...


Truth is a defense to a defamation charge.
03-25-2017 02:33 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
Paterno knew. There's no way he didn't know. A sad situation from every angle.
03-25-2017 02:52 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-25-2017 01:54 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Individuals committed crimes. Evidence proving the crimes was investigated, compiled, and presented. The criminals were convicted or plead guilty.

The system worked exactly as it was supposed to.


And that's that. Nothing more can rightly be said about the situation.

And even going above and beyond, Penn St paid almost $50M (?? something like that) to support programs for abused kids.

Truly, the situation has been rectified, and justice has been served, to the fullest, highest possible extent that could ever be rendered.



Yet there are still some cowards on here who want blood from turnips.

TOO BAD!
Yep those raped kids have no problem now, it's been rectified. No worries at all, just throw money at the problem and boom it all goes away.
03-25-2017 02:55 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-25-2017 02:55 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  No worries at all, just throw money at the problem and boom it all goes away.

Didn't say that.

Actually, what I said was the rest of the sentence, which you ignored.
03-26-2017 09:56 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-26-2017 09:56 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-25-2017 02:55 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  No worries at all, just throw money at the problem and boom it all goes away.

Didn't say that.

Actually, what I said was the rest of the sentence, which you ignored.

I'll actually split the difference. Justice has been served to the fullest that it can be rendered. The people responsible are either dead, or they have gone through the judicial system. I agree w/ MplsBison to that extent.

However, I think that there is plenty of room to create a stronger incentive for the school to ensure that the proper precautions are in place to ensure that nothing like these events ever happens again. The NCAA was initially formed to promote safety in football. Individuals at PSU clearly prioritized avoiding bad football-related PR over safety, and the school lacked adequate safeguards to prevent something as serious as r*pe in that context. That's a major issue. I know players weren't harmed, but if these individuals were willing to let countless kids be harmed, or, in Sandusky's case, harm countless kids, what's stopping them from ensuring that players are protected? And, given the school's response to the situation, I have a very hard time believing that the school is capable of regulating itself. PSU needs a 3rd party to come in and help it. That is where the NCAA dropped the ball. The AD is the tail that wags the ball, and the NCAA is the governing body that's charged w/ keeping those situations in check. It failed.

Barring NCAA action, I think that my alma mater should have imposed a 4-5 year ban on the football program. Naturally, the school should have lobbied the NCAA to allow players to transfer w/o having to sit out a year (which the NCAA allowed anyway). Those actions would have minimized the harm to the current player, and it would have ensured that an entire class would have gone through PSU w/o being exposed to the football program. As such, the FB program would have been erased in the institutional memory of the students, and the school would have been forced to develop an identity that's separate from football. Given PSU's location, I don't think that it can excel at any main stream sport aside from FB (wresting isn't main stream), so I think that the new identity would have been academic in nature, which would be a drastic improvement for the school.

However, if you read the position statements of the various BoT members over the years since Joes forced retirement, I don't think that regaining control of the football program is possible in UP.
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2017 10:29 PM by nzmorange.)
03-26-2017 10:26 PM
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RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-26-2017 10:26 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  the school to ensure that the proper precautions are in place to ensure that nothing like these events ever happens again.

Easy to write. Looks good on paper.

Impossible to implement.

Written another way, would be "the school should magically mind control every employee, to make sure no employee every does any bad action ever again".

You can't control people.

All you can do is react, if/when they do something wrong.



(03-26-2017 10:26 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I think that my alma mater should have imposed a 4-5 year ban on the football program.

I'll never sign off on that.

I will never allow people who had absolutely nothing to do with the tragedy be completely, unfairly harmed.

And that includes PSU researchers too! The reputation of the institution is damaged. Proof: SMU.
03-26-2017 10:42 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-26-2017 10:42 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-26-2017 10:26 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  the school to ensure that the proper precautions are in place to ensure that nothing like these events ever happens again.

Easy to write. Looks good on paper.

Impossible to implement.

Written another way, would be "the school should magically mind control every employee, to make sure no employee every does any bad action ever again".

You can't control people.

All you can do is react, if/when they do something wrong.



(03-26-2017 10:26 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I think that my alma mater should have imposed a 4-5 year ban on the football program.

I'll never sign off on that.

I will never allow people who had absolutely nothing to do with the tragedy be completely, unfairly harmed.

And that includes PSU researchers too! The reputation of the institution is damaged. Proof: SMU.

Change "never" to "exceedingly unlikely" if you want to be painfully literal.

And you don't have to sign off on it. You're not an alum. I am.

Regardless, there are plenty of great schools that don't play football at PSU's level. Look at Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Chicago, all the Ivy League schools, etc., and I have a trouble seeing the connection between research funding and football, even on an abstract level. I also have trouble caring about PSU research as an alum and when I was a student. It doesn't really affect me in either capacity. I probably affects state tax payers, but state appropriations are hurting, so the can't care that much (and before someone flips on me pointing out the state appropriations fund the in-state tuition discount and not any self-generated research budgets, I agree to an extent, but money is fungible, and building the institutional machinery to attract research dollars isn't cheap).
03-26-2017 10:48 PM
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RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
"But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here.  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal,  having no natural affection [such as an adult should have for a child], not open to any agreement [because they don't want to hear the truth], slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness,  betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures [such as watching football] rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away." - 2 Timothy 3:1-5
03-27-2017 06:14 AM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-24-2017 09:47 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-24-2017 09:28 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  Louis Freeh released a 2-page statement today after the conviction with the following statements that he got EXACTLY right:


“Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz and Timothy Curley were the most powerful men who ran the Pennsylvania State University. Today, they are convicted criminals. And Joe Paterno’s once iconic legacy is forever marred by his own decision to do nothing when he had the chance to make a real difference.”

“[Current PSU President] Barron and a coterie of ‘Paterno denier’ board members, alumni, cult-like groups such as Penn Staters for Responsible Stewardship, a former professional football player, and certain elected state political hacks, have been nothing but apologists for Paterno, Spanier, Schultz and Curley, more concerned about bringing back a bronze statue than worrying about the multiple child victims who have forever been so grievously harmed on the PSU campus,” he wrote. “Barron can do one, last good act of service to PSU by resigning, and taking along with him board members like Anthony P. Lubrano and Albert L. Lord, who have no vision for PSU except a ‘rear-view’ one.”

Some nice juicy red meat for certain folk, no doubt.

Freeh's being sued by Spanier for defamation, of course. We'll see how that one goes ...

Yeah, people tend to like it when pedophiles and their enablers are brought to justice. We are funny in that way.

As for the defamation suit, I eagerly look forward to that one as well. A lot of people are going to be deposed - which means more details are going to come out.

Alas, it is never going to happen. Spanier was just convicted of one of the three counts he was facing and, according to some reports, the jury came very close to convicting him on all three counts, so I'm guessing that suit is not going to go terribly well for him. Don't worry, I am sure that he will draw from the Art Briles playbook and will in short order withdraw his case so that everyone can "just move on with their lives"

To me, the biggest news to come out of this was that everyone clearly knew about the 1998 case and they discussed what to do about it. That is a big deal.

That was several years before the whole McQueary report and that clearly changes the narrative amongst even the most loyal Paterno/PSU sycophants.

Nobody can now reasonably say that Joe (or his underlings) did not know what was happening right under their noses. Now, everyone agrees that he knew and the debate then shifts to whether or not he/they did enough to protect all of the raped children they knew about?

That is a substantial development and it forevermore seals his/their legacy as people who at the very least did not do enough to protect children that they KNEW were endangered.

That is why Freeh unloaded as he did. He knows he has checkmated the Loony Lubrano's and Franco's of the world and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Now, even if Spanier wins on appeal, and he probably won't, it's over. Freeh has been vindicated and Paterno and his underlings have been damned by virtue of the other two guys pleading guilty.

Now, the jury decided that the prosecution did not prove that there was a conspiracy to allow all of the raping of children that was happening on and near Penn State's campus, but that was always a high bar to surpass. Honestly, I'm shocked they got as much done as they did in Central Pennsylvania, where the whole world has now seen the incredible scope of Penn State's incredible power.

This should at the very least shelve forever any talk resurrecting the Paterno statue. I can guarantee you this, if it ever does go back up, someone is going to tear it right back down. If it goes up again, someone is going to tear it down again.

Not everyone is insane and a lot of people are still very upset by this both inside and outside the Commonwealth.
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2017 11:54 AM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
03-27-2017 11:38 AM
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RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
Good. Hang the bastard.
03-27-2017 11:39 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-27-2017 11:38 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  
(03-24-2017 09:47 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-24-2017 09:28 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  Louis Freeh released a 2-page statement today after the conviction with the following statements that he got EXACTLY right:


“Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz and Timothy Curley were the most powerful men who ran the Pennsylvania State University. Today, they are convicted criminals. And Joe Paterno’s once iconic legacy is forever marred by his own decision to do nothing when he had the chance to make a real difference.”

“[Current PSU President] Barron and a coterie of ‘Paterno denier’ board members, alumni, cult-like groups such as Penn Staters for Responsible Stewardship, a former professional football player, and certain elected state political hacks, have been nothing but apologists for Paterno, Spanier, Schultz and Curley, more concerned about bringing back a bronze statue than worrying about the multiple child victims who have forever been so grievously harmed on the PSU campus,” he wrote. “Barron can do one, last good act of service to PSU by resigning, and taking along with him board members like Anthony P. Lubrano and Albert L. Lord, who have no vision for PSU except a ‘rear-view’ one.”

Some nice juicy red meat for certain folk, no doubt.

Freeh's being sued by Spanier for defamation, of course. We'll see how that one goes ...

Yeah, people tend to like it when pedophiles and their enablers are brought to justice. We are funny in that way.

As for the defamation suit, I eagerly look forward to that one as well. A lot of people are going to be deposed - which means more details are going to come out.

Alas, it is never going to happen. Spaniel was just convicted of one of the three counts he was facing and, according to some reports, the jury came very close to convicting him on all three counts, so I'm guessing that suit is not going to go terribly well for him. Don't worry, I am sure that he will draw from the Art Briles playbook and will in short order withdraw his case so that everyone can "just move on with their lives"

To me, the biggest news to come out of this was that everyone clearly knew about the 1998 case and they discussed what to do about it. That is a big deal.

That was several years before the whole McQueary report and that clearly changes the narrative amongst even the most loyal Paterno/PSU sycophants.

Nobody can now reasonably say that Joe (or his underlings) did not know what was happening right under their noses. Now, everyone agrees that he knew and the debate then shifts to whether or not he/they did enough to protect all of the raped children they knew about?

That is a substantial development and it forevermore seals his/their legacy as people who at the very least did not do enough to protect children that they new were endangered.

That is why Freeh unloaded as he did. He knows he has checkmated you and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Now, even if Spaniard wins on appeal, and he probably won't, it's over. Freeh has been vindicated and Paterno and his underlings have been damned.

Now, the jury decided that the prosecution did not prove that there was a conspiracy to allow all of the raping of children that was happening on and near Penn State's campus, but that was always a high bar to surpass. Honestly, I'm shocked they got this much done as they did in Central Pennsylvania, where the whole world has now seen the incredible scope of Penn State's incredible power.

This should at all he very least shelve forever any talk resurrecting the Paterno statue. I can guarantee you this, if it ever does go back up, someone is going to tear it right back down. If it goes up again, someone is going to tear it down again.

Not everyone is insane and a lot of people are still very upset by this both inside and outside the Commonwealth.

I don't think Freeh has been vindicated at all. It was a sloppy report. It looks like the board told him to put all the blame on Paterno and Spanier and leave the board clean.

I may be interpreting you wrong, but I didn't hear anything coming out during the trial about Spanier discussing 1998 when figuring out what to do in 2001. He wasn't president in 1998. Now earlier it did come out that Paterno and Curley knew about 1998 and that Curley had his locked unofficial personnel file on Sandusky, indicating he knew there was a problem.
03-27-2017 11:48 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-27-2017 11:48 AM)bullet Wrote:  I don't think Freeh has been vindicated at all. It was a sloppy report. It looks like the board told him to put all the blame on Paterno and Spanier and leave the board clean.

I may be interpreting you wrong, but I didn't hear anything coming out during the trial about Spanier discussing 1998 when figuring out what to do in 2001. He wasn't president in 1998. Now earlier it did come out that Paterno and Curley knew about 1998 and that Curley had his locked unofficial personnel file on Sandusky, indicating he knew there was a problem.

Spanier definitely was PSU president in 1998.

I do agree with you --- Friday's ruling doesn't vindicate Freeh. If it did vindicate Freeh, we wouldn't have seen Freeh's statement worded as it was.

Freeh basically spent several paragraphs re-iterating HIS conclusions. He felt he had to defend his findings that a conspiracy occurred, defending those findings against the "not guilty of conspiracy" verdict that the jury returned.
03-27-2017 11:54 AM
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RE: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier convicted of child endangerment
(03-27-2017 11:38 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Yeah, people tend to like it when pedophiles and their enablers are brought to justice. We are funny in that way.

As for the defamation suit, I eagerly look forward to that one as well. A lot of people are going to be deposed - which means more details are going to come out.

Alas, it is never going to happen. Spanier was just convicted of one of the three counts he was facing and, according to some reports, the jury came very close to convicting him on all three counts, so I'm guessing that suit is not going to go terribly well for him. Don't worry, I am sure that he will draw from the Art Briles playbook and will in short order withdraw his case so that everyone can "just move on with their lives"

To me, the biggest news to come out of this was that everyone clearly knew about the 1998 case and they discussed what to do about it. That is a big deal.

That was several years before the whole McQueary report and that clearly changes the narrative amongst even the most loyal Paterno/PSU sycophants.

Nobody can now reasonably say that Joe (or his underlings) did not know what was happening right under their noses. Now, everyone agrees that he knew and the debate then shifts to whether or not he/they did enough to protect all of the raped children they knew about?

That is a substantial development and it forevermore seals his/their legacy as people who at the very least did not do enough to protect children that they KNEW were endangered.

That is why Freeh unloaded as he did. He knows he has checkmated the Loony Lubrano's and Franco's of the world and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Now, even if Spanier wins on appeal, and he probably won't, it's over. Freeh has been vindicated and Paterno and his underlings have been damned by virtue of the other two guys pleading guilty.

Now, the jury decided that the prosecution did not prove that there was a conspiracy to allow all of the raping of children that was happening on and near Penn State's campus, but that was always a high bar to surpass. Honestly, I'm shocked they got as much done as they did in Central Pennsylvania, where the whole world has now seen the incredible scope of Penn State's incredible power.

This should at the very least shelve forever any talk resurrecting the Paterno statue. I can guarantee you this, if it ever does go back up, someone is going to tear it right back down. If it goes up again, someone is going to tear it down again.

Not everyone is insane and a lot of people are still very upset by this both inside and outside the Commonwealth.

Hmmm ... Friday's rulings were a strange "vindication" of Freeh's results.

Freeh concluded that Spanier et al were guilty of a conspiracy. The jury didn't believe that (at least to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold).

As for some of your other comments:

(1) Can you source your information that "the jury came close to convicting him on all three counts"? Where does your information as to that come from?

(2) I'll bet that Spanier doesn't drop his suit against Freeh. In fact, I'd bet the odds on such are pretty close to 0%. If you want to bet, let me know.
(This post was last modified: 03-27-2017 12:02 PM by Nittany_Bearcat.)
03-27-2017 11:56 AM
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