(03-20-2017 04:38 PM)bearcat_df Wrote:  Our peers at this moment are the other teams in the ACC and high majors playing in mid major conferences - Gonzaga, Wichita State, Dayton. As long as we are in the AAC, U of L, Syracuse, Pitt are no longer our peers.

I'd like to think that Xavier and Butler are our peers, but I think their conference puts them one notch above us.

Some people want to minimize the impact of being in a mid-major conference, but I believe it puts a significant ceiling on our program. The primary limit is the level of talent that will be interested in coming to UC. Several people have commented that UConn and Memphis need to get back to a higher level. I think they are indicators of the impact the AAC is having on programs. I give credit to Cronin for getting the talent level that we do have.

Here is a sobering article about the talent required to get to the sweet 16.
http://www.scout.com/college/basketball/...e-sweet-16

Finally, I think Huggins lack of tournament success at the end of his tenure and Cronin's current lack of tournament success are both a function of how hard it is to recruit top level talent to a mid-major conference.

Outstanding post! The landscape of college athletics has changed so much that references to the Metro/C-USA/Great Midwest are out of touch with the huge revenue disparity.

(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

Half empty glass Billy [kidding] got me thinking. While we have struggled against these particular teams in the modern era, we have beaten some solid programs. Who you ask? I went back to 1983 during the first season of Tony Yates to the present season. Here's our winning records only against P5 programs including postseason...

7-1 Minnesota
4-2 Iowa St.
4-2 Oklahoma
3-1 North Carolina St.
3-1 Nebraska
3-0 Purdue
3-0 Vanderbilt
2-1 Alabama
2-1 Arkansas
2-1 Mississippi St.
2-0 Georgia Tech
2-0 Southern Cal
2-0 Tennessee
2-0 Washington
2-0 Oregon
1-0 Iowa
1-0 Kansas St.
1-0 Virginia
1-0 Texas
1-0 LSU
1-0 Missouri
1-0 Penn St.

25-27 Louisville

Included Louisville because we have a good history with them and they are closest geographically outside of Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio State. Of course, there are many P5 programs that we've beaten but we do not have winning records against including the former old Big East now P5 members.

(03-20-2017 10:00 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

Half empty glass Billy [kidding] got me thinking. While we have struggled against these particular teams in the modern era, we have beaten some solid programs. Who you ask? I went back to 1983 during the first season of Tony Yates to the present season. Here's our winning records only against P5 programs including postseason...

7-1 Minnesota
4-2 Iowa St.
4-2 Oklahoma
3-1 North Carolina St.
3-1 Nebraska
3-0 Purdue
3-0 Vanderbilt
2-1 Alabama
2-1 Arkansas
2-1 Mississippi St.
2-0 Georgia Tech
2-0 Southern Cal
2-0 Tennessee
2-0 Washington
2-0 Oregon
1-0 Iowa
1-0 Kansas St.
1-0 Virginia
1-0 Texas
1-0 LSU
1-0 Missouri
1-0 Penn St.

25-27 Louisville

Included Louisville because we have a good history with them and they are closest geographically outside of Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio State. Of course, there are many P5 programs that we've beaten but we do not have winning records against including the former old Big East now P5 members.

Love ya 92, but this means what? LSU, Penn ST etc. What does this mean for right now?

(03-20-2017 04:18 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 04:01 PM)chatcat Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 03:21 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Our peer programs are still what they were prior to our departure from the Big East. Louisville, WVU, Pittsburgh, Memphis, and to a lesser degree, Butler, Dayton and Xavier for basketball only. Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

In football we've had 18 matchups with these 3. We're a whopping 2-16 with those 2 Ws coming against Kentucky.

We're a fine institution with unfounded high expectations. Someone mentioned maybe earlier or in another thread that Sweet 16s aren't championships. To a program at our level that's exactly what they are.

UK, IU, OSU.

One of these is not like the other two. There have been entire decades when our program was better than OSU's.

Catlett beat IU once.

There is no record I can find of that.

This is correct. I believe it was called the Sugar Bowl Classic. IU had won the national championship the prior year and Catlett's team took them down in New Orleans. It even earned a pretty nice feature story that week in Sports Illustrated.

But the point overall is well taken--UC just doesn't get many opportunities to play the blue bloods. I'm guessing even a respected, rising program like Iowa State has no desire to return to 5th/3rd or risk a loss to G5 Cincy in their place again. So while I don't agree with Mick completely about UC's scheduling woes, it's really been a longstanding problem. It's not all about conference either. When UC was in the Big East we were rarely getting great games with other BCS schools; home, away or in tournaments.

Blue bloods rarely play true road games against decent programs anymore. A few, but its not often against the down-slate conferences.

Unless UC gets into some of the premier early season tournaments, the options to play a top program might be limited to selling ourselves off as a one off buy game to fill out another team's home schedule.

(03-21-2017 07:37 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Blue bloods rarely play true road games against decent programs anymore. A few, but its not often against the down-slate conferences.

Unless UC gets into some of the premier early season tournaments, the options to play a top program might be limited to selling ourselves off as a one off buy game to fill out another team's home schedule.

Agree about the Blue Bloods.

With respect to the premier early tournaments, it seems we have had an issue getting invited. Mick pointed out how we are not welcomed back to Hawaii because we did not bring any fans. Is the issue our fan base (or lackthereof) then or is it something else?

I have to think Memphis is #1 on the list.

(03-20-2017 04:38 PM)bearcat_df Wrote:  Our peers at this moment are the other teams in the ACC and high majors playing in mid major conferences - Gonzaga, Wichita State, Dayton. As long as we are in the AAC, U of L, Syracuse, Pitt are no longer our peers.

I'd like to think that Xavier and Butler are our peers, but I think their conference puts them one notch above us.

Some people want to minimize the impact of being in a mid-major conference, but I believe it puts a significant ceiling on our program. The primary limit is the level of talent that will be interested in coming to UC. Several people have commented that UConn and Memphis need to get back to a higher level. I think they are indicators of the impact the AAC is having on programs. I give credit to Cronin for getting the talent level that we do have.

Here is a sobering article about the talent required to get to the sweet 16.
http://www.scout.com/college/basketball/...e-sweet-16

Finally, I think Huggins lack of tournament success at the end of his tenure and Cronin's current lack of tournament success are both a function of how hard it is to recruit top level talent to a mid-major conference.

This post is ridiculous. You act like we are in the MEAC and can only hope of winning the MEAC tournament and getting a 15 seed. Enough with calling the conference mid-major. It isn't. Most everyone puts us in the umbrella of somewhere between the Big East and the A-10. We are not P5, but we ARE considered "major". By calling the AAC mid major you are putting UC in the same bag as Grambling or Delaware State. Do you think they are our peers? No of course not. Nobody would.

Do you consider Uconn Temple or Memphis mid-major? No. Nobody does.

The fact is, no one knows just what this league is yet. To the outsiders it looks like a few good teams at the top, under-performers in the middle, and trash at the bottom.

Uconn and Memphis have pulled in top 10 recruiting classes in this league. Oh, and one won a national title for the AAC.

Mick said it best. You recruit to the name of the school, not the name of the conference. The AAC hasn't reached its potential yet. Memphis, Temple, Houston are stuck in neutral. Once the figure it out, I think the league will be just fine and can be justified by the committee to have 3-5 bids per year. Being in a league that gives an at-large team a 6 seed isn't mid major. You think C-USA would ever do that? Come on.

I'd like to get this out now because people continually pretend that anyone is asking to get home and homes with the blue bloods. Is there anyone on this board that believes UC should/could be getting home and home series with UK, Duke, UNC, IU, or UCLA?

Maybe some posters will prove me wrong, but I don't think anyone is even suggesting going after those. I think what most people are saying is that home and homes with middle to bottom tier teams in P5 conferences would probably do it. There are tons of teams and I just don't see why it would be that difficult to accomplish and if the middle tier teams, the Miami Fl, Tennessee, Oklahoma, New Mexico, etc will only do a 2 for 1 then just flipping do it already. The only way UC is going to get respect nationally is to beat those types of teams with consistency and when you do get a shot at the blue bloods in the tournament win them occasionally.

(03-21-2017 08:20 AM)BeerCat Wrote:  I'd like to get this out now because people continually pretend that anyone is asking to get home and homes with the blue bloods. Is there anyone on this board that believes UC should/could be getting home and home series with UK, Duke, UNC, IU, or UCLA?

Maybe some posters will prove me wrong, but I don't think anyone is even suggesting going after those. I think what most people are saying is that home and homes with middle to bottom tier teams in P5 conferences would probably do it. There are tons of teams and I just don't see why it would be that difficult to accomplish and if the middle tier teams, the Miami Fl, Tennessee, Oklahoma, New Mexico, etc will only do a 2 for 1 then just flipping do it already. The only way UC is going to get respect nationally is to beat those types of teams with consistency and when you do get a shot at the blue bloods in the tournament win them occasionally.

I think this is where we're at, and I agree. If we're going to be completely inflexible with our stance on that, then don't get hung up on the P5 designation and look for the best 1v1 deals. Gonzaga, SDST, Witchita St, Dayton, St Marys, VCU..... There are ways to build a tough OOC schedule.

Of course, none of those ways are as easy as just saying "we tried, nobody will play us".

(03-21-2017 08:25 AM)uccheese Wrote:  

(03-21-2017 08:20 AM)BeerCat Wrote:  I'd like to get this out now because people continually pretend that anyone is asking to get home and homes with the blue bloods. Is there anyone on this board that believes UC should/could be getting home and home series with UK, Duke, UNC, IU, or UCLA?

Maybe some posters will prove me wrong, but I don't think anyone is even suggesting going after those. I think what most people are saying is that home and homes with middle to bottom tier teams in P5 conferences would probably do it. There are tons of teams and I just don't see why it would be that difficult to accomplish and if the middle tier teams, the Miami Fl, Tennessee, Oklahoma, New Mexico, etc will only do a 2 for 1 then just flipping do it already. The only way UC is going to get respect nationally is to beat those types of teams with consistency and when you do get a shot at the blue bloods in the tournament win them occasionally.

I think this is where we're at, and I agree. If we're going to be completely inflexible with our stance on that, then don't get hung up on the P5 designation and look for the best 1v1 deals. Gonzaga, SDST, Witchita St, Dayton, St Marys, VCU..... There are ways to build a tough OOC schedule.

Of course, none of those ways are as easy as just saying "we tried, nobody will play us".

Not to mention how valuable a true road win against those teams would be to the RPI, hell doesn't losing on the road even help our RPI?

(03-21-2017 12:35 AM)rtaylor Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 10:00 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

Half empty glass Billy [kidding] got me thinking. While we have struggled against these particular teams in the modern era, we have beaten some solid programs. Who you ask? I went back to 1983 during the first season of Tony Yates to the present season. Here's our winning records only against P5 programs including postseason...

7-1 Minnesota
4-2 Iowa St.
4-2 Oklahoma
3-1 North Carolina St.
3-1 Nebraska
3-0 Purdue
3-0 Vanderbilt
2-1 Alabama
2-1 Arkansas
2-1 Mississippi St.
2-0 Georgia Tech
2-0 Southern Cal
2-0 Tennessee
2-0 Washington
2-0 Oregon
1-0 Iowa
1-0 Kansas St.
1-0 Virginia
1-0 Texas
1-0 LSU
1-0 Missouri
1-0 Penn St.

25-27 Louisville

Included Louisville because we have a good history with them and they are closest geographically outside of Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio State. Of course, there are many P5 programs that we've beaten but we do not have winning records against including the former old Big East now P5 members.

Love ya 92, but this means what? LSU, Penn ST etc. What does this mean for right now?

While we aren't considered a "blue blood" program I believe we've established ourselves as a solid second tier program that has shown the ability to beat other P5 teams. Yes, Penn St., LSU, Washington, etc. are not consistently competitive programs but if you look at that list we've had success against some good NCAA tournament and P5 conference quality teams. I was just making the point that if you're going to say we don't beat Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio State (a lot of schools don't have success against those programs either) then you need to mention who we do beat when we've had the opportunity to go out and play. I didn't even mention non-P5 programs like Dayton, Memphis, Xavier, UConn, Miami OH, Marquette, Temple, UNLV, Houston, Kent. St., Saint Louis, Ohio U., that we've had recent success playing against.

(03-21-2017 08:25 AM)uccheese Wrote:  

(03-21-2017 08:20 AM)BeerCat Wrote:  I'd like to get this out now because people continually pretend that anyone is asking to get home and homes with the blue bloods. Is there anyone on this board that believes UC should/could be getting home and home series with UK, Duke, UNC, IU, or UCLA?

Maybe some posters will prove me wrong, but I don't think anyone is even suggesting going after those. I think what most people are saying is that home and homes with middle to bottom tier teams in P5 conferences would probably do it. There are tons of teams and I just don't see why it would be that difficult to accomplish and if the middle tier teams, the Miami Fl, Tennessee, Oklahoma, New Mexico, etc will only do a 2 for 1 then just flipping do it already. The only way UC is going to get respect nationally is to beat those types of teams with consistency and when you do get a shot at the blue bloods in the tournament win them occasionally.

I think this is where we're at, and I agree. If we're going to be completely inflexible with our stance on that, then don't get hung up on the P5 designation and look for the best 1v1 deals. Gonzaga, SDST, Witchita St, Dayton, St Marys, VCU..... There are ways to build a tough OOC schedule.

Of course, none of those ways are as easy as just saying "we tried, nobody will play us".

I would love to see the have nots band together and decide to boycott and not take games with the P5 for a year or two. The P5 does need games to fill out their seasons. They don't want to only play each other.

it is the only power the have nots have and we should try and exercise it. But it takes balls and I don't think most ADs have any.

(03-21-2017 10:20 AM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(03-21-2017 08:25 AM)uccheese Wrote:  

(03-21-2017 08:20 AM)BeerCat Wrote:  I'd like to get this out now because people continually pretend that anyone is asking to get home and homes with the blue bloods. Is there anyone on this board that believes UC should/could be getting home and home series with UK, Duke, UNC, IU, or UCLA?

Maybe some posters will prove me wrong, but I don't think anyone is even suggesting going after those. I think what most people are saying is that home and homes with middle to bottom tier teams in P5 conferences would probably do it. There are tons of teams and I just don't see why it would be that difficult to accomplish and if the middle tier teams, the Miami Fl, Tennessee, Oklahoma, New Mexico, etc will only do a 2 for 1 then just flipping do it already. The only way UC is going to get respect nationally is to beat those types of teams with consistency and when you do get a shot at the blue bloods in the tournament win them occasionally.

I think this is where we're at, and I agree. If we're going to be completely inflexible with our stance on that, then don't get hung up on the P5 designation and look for the best 1v1 deals. Gonzaga, SDST, Witchita St, Dayton, St Marys, VCU..... There are ways to build a tough OOC schedule.

Of course, none of those ways are as easy as just saying "we tried, nobody will play us".

I would love to see the have nots band together and decide to boycott and not take games with the P5 for a year or two. The P5 does need games to fill out their seasons. They don't want to only play each other.

it is the only power the have nots have and we should try and exercise it. But it takes balls and I don't think most ADs have any.

I think this has happened somewhat organically. Apparently, buy games with fair to good mid-majors have become much more expensive. So to save money, November and December home dates for UC and many P5 programs, get filled with multi-directionals (Southeast x university) or privates you can't find with a road map. I suppose the trade-off for UC (and others) is this. Your season ticket holders are a fixed revenue source regardless and the incremental cost to bring in a better buy opponent doesn't move the needle on attendance enough to justify the added expense.

To one other point in this thread, I don't think a road game at Dayton this particular season would have been costly to RPI, win or lose. But I haven't analyzed the data. I've changed my thinking somewhat on UD. We would fill 5th/3rd playing them before January 1. And UC would get a stiff road test up there with strong regional interest. So I'm not suggesting a forever series with them. But a home and home and then look at our options year three might we worth the risk.

(03-20-2017 04:18 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 04:01 PM)chatcat Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 03:21 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Our peer programs are still what they were prior to our departure from the Big East. Louisville, WVU, Pittsburgh, Memphis, and to a lesser degree, Butler, Dayton and Xavier for basketball only. Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

In football we've had 18 matchups with these 3. We're a whopping 2-16 with those 2 Ws coming against Kentucky.

We're a fine institution with unfounded high expectations. Someone mentioned maybe earlier or in another thread that Sweet 16s aren't championships. To a program at our level that's exactly what they are.

UK, IU, OSU.

One of these is not like the other two. There have been entire decades when our program was better than OSU's.

Catlett beat IU once.

There is no record I can find of that.

January 1977, Sugar Bowl Tournament Final.

Our peers by 2016 attendance: (bold = peer)
37 Wichita St. 10805
38 Minnesota 10706
39 West Virginia 10583
40 UConn 10413
41 Xavier 10281
42 California 10182
43 Oklahoma 10000
44 Providence 9703
45 Florida 9686
46 Wake Forest 9520
47 Cincinnati 9415
48 Duke 9314
49 Pittsburgh 9079
50 Texas A&M 8955
51 Georgetown 8879
52 Utah St. 8874
53 Clemson 8703
54 Colorado 8540
55 Notre Dame 8517
56 Texas Tech 8284
57 Auburn 8216
58 Butler 8164
59 Villanova 8119
60 UCLA 8073

Of these, take out Duke and UCLA - they have much better tradition and fanbases than us. Utah State, Auburn, Texas Tech, Colorado, and Clemson don't have anywhere near our level of history even in recent years.

The rest is a decent approximation of our peer group. I'd also add the non-Power Conference schools with higher attendance than us (BYU, New Mexico, Dayton, SDSU, Memphis, UNLV).

Fun fact - 5 of the last 11 NCAA champions are in this group.

(03-21-2017 10:16 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(03-21-2017 12:35 AM)rtaylor Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 10:00 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

Half empty glass Billy [kidding] got me thinking. While we have struggled against these particular teams in the modern era, we have beaten some solid programs. Who you ask? I went back to 1983 during the first season of Tony Yates to the present season. Here's our winning records only against P5 programs including postseason...

7-1 Minnesota
4-2 Iowa St.
4-2 Oklahoma
3-1 North Carolina St.
3-1 Nebraska
3-0 Purdue
3-0 Vanderbilt
2-1 Alabama
2-1 Arkansas
2-1 Mississippi St.
2-0 Georgia Tech
2-0 Southern Cal
2-0 Tennessee
2-0 Washington
2-0 Oregon
1-0 Iowa
1-0 Kansas St.
1-0 Virginia
1-0 Texas
1-0 LSU
1-0 Missouri
1-0 Penn St.

25-27 Louisville

Included Louisville because we have a good history with them and they are closest geographically outside of Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio State. Of course, there are many P5 programs that we've beaten but we do not have winning records against including the former old Big East now P5 members.

Love ya 92, but this means what? LSU, Penn ST etc. What does this mean for right now?

While we aren't considered a "blue blood" program I believe we've established ourselves as a solid second tier program that has shown the ability to beat other P5 teams. Yes, Penn St., LSU, Washington, etc. are not consistently competitive programs but if you look at that list we've had success against some good NCAA tournament and P5 conference quality teams. I was just making the point that if you're going to say we don't beat Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio State (a lot of schools don't have success against those programs either) then you need to mention who we do beat when we've had the opportunity to go out and play. I didn't even mention non-P5 programs like Dayton, Memphis, Xavier, UConn, Miami OH, Marquette, Temple, UNLV, Houston, Kent. St., Saint Louis, Ohio U., that we've had recent success playing against.

Gotcha. A pox on you for bringing up Yates though.

(03-20-2017 10:00 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Included Louisville because we have a good history with them and they are closest geographically outside of Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio State. Of course, there are many P5 programs that we've beaten but we do not have winning records against including the former old Big East now P5 members.

Unfortunately I think Louisville has passed us by. Ever since they opened the Yum Center and won their 3rd national title, they're way above us.

Louisville isn't even a peer of OSU anymore - they're in the elite group with Indiana, Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke, and UCLA.

(03-21-2017 01:35 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-20-2017 10:00 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Included Louisville because we have a good history with them and they are closest geographically outside of Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio State. Of course, there are many P5 programs that we've beaten but we do not have winning records against including the former old Big East now P5 members.

Unfortunately I think Louisville has passed us by. Ever since they opened the Yum Center and won their 3rd national title, they're way above us.

Louisville isn't even a peer of OSU anymore - they're in the elite group with Indiana, Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke, and UCLA.

I would say that Louisville has taken IU's place in that group. IU really hasn't been IU since they fired Knight, and they're about to move onto their 4th coach since then.

(03-21-2017 01:34 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  

(03-21-2017 10:16 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(03-21-2017 12:35 AM)rtaylor Wrote:  Love ya 92, but this means what? LSU, Penn ST etc. What does this mean for right now?

While we aren't considered a "blue blood" program I believe we've established ourselves as a solid second tier program that has shown the ability to beat other P5 teams. Yes, Penn St., LSU, Washington, etc. are not consistently competitive programs but if you look at that list we've had success against some good NCAA tournament and P5 conference quality teams. I was just making the point that if you're going to say we don't beat Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio State (a lot of schools don't have success against those programs either) then you need to mention who we do beat when we've had the opportunity to go out and play. I didn't even mention non-P5 programs like Dayton, Memphis, Xavier, UConn, Miami OH, Marquette, Temple, UNLV, Houston, Kent. St., Saint Louis, Ohio U., that we've had recent success playing against.

Gotcha. A pox on you for bringing up Yates though.

LOL. What, you don't like his 70-100 record coaching UC? Again, I was trying to be objective and fair including UC's success in the modern era (since 1980's).