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Who are Our Peers?
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Bcatbog Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Who is Our Peers?
1. One way to consider the question is to speculate what our record would be in a P5 conference with this team. 2. The other thing to speculate on would be how different our recruiting would be in a P5 conference. 3. How many P5 schools would hire Mick if he made himself available.

I suspect the answer to 1 is we may have had some thing like a 20 and 12 record. The answer to 2 is better. The answer to 3 is a lot.

I would say that if Gonzaga can be a top team every year - then it can be done outside of a P5 conference.

Gang, when the BE blew up on us our chance at the national stage was seriously lessened. It simply is what it is.
 
03-20-2017 10:10 AM
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Post: #22
RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 10:10 AM)Bcatbog Wrote:  1. One way to consider the question is to speculate what our record would be in a P5 conference with this team. 2. The other thing to speculate on would be how different our recruiting would be in a P5 conference. 3. How many P5 schools would hire Mick if he made himself available.

I suspect the answer to 1 is we may have had some thing like a 20 and 12 record. The answer to 2 is better. The answer to 3 is a lot.

I would say that if Gonzaga can be a top team every year - then it can be done outside of a P5 conference.

Gang, when the BE blew up on us our chance at the national stage was seriously lessened. It simply is what it is.

Let's just assume for a minute that the Big East never blew up like it did and we were still in a conference with Louisville, Syracuse, Pitt, etc. Let's also assume that the Pitt Chancellor accepted the $13M/year TV deal from ESPN. Under this scenario Mick would have likely gotten the axe at the end of last year. However, one could argue in that world, we would have had a better team than we did last year due to the ability to recruit at a higher level.
 
03-20-2017 10:24 AM
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 10:10 AM)Bcatbog Wrote:  I would say that if Gonzaga can be a top team every year - then it can be done outside of a P5 conference.

Everyone loves to point to Gonzaga as the beacon of hope for UC.

Mark Few has been the Bulldogs coach for 18 seasons. The program was already starting to win and made the NCAA tourney in '95. Since Few took over in '99 they have never missed the big dance. That certainly builds brand recognition over that many years.

For his first 15 years, Gonzaga never made an Elite Eight and was bounced out of the first weekend 11 times. During that same time Few's teams were just 24-41 against the Top 25. Not much different than Mick who has a better record against the Top 25 but not quite as successful in the tournament.

After 18 years of hard work, and a University that is solely committed to basketball, he has been able to bring some top talent into Spokane and had a nice three year run. What is interesting with Gonzaga is that they maintain a roster of 17 players including walk-ons.
 
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2017 10:44 AM by Ragpicker.)
03-20-2017 10:44 AM
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 10:44 AM)Ragpicker Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 10:10 AM)Bcatbog Wrote:  I would say that if Gonzaga can be a top team every year - then it can be done outside of a P5 conference.

Everyone loves to point to Gonzaga as the beacon of hope for UC.

Mark Few has been the Bulldogs coach for 18 seasons. The program was already starting to win and made the NCAA tourney in '95. Since Few took over in '99 they have never missed the big dance. That certainly builds brand recognition over that many years.

For his first 15 years, Gonzaga never made an Elite Eight and was bounced out of the first weekend 11 times. During that same time Few's teams were just 24-41 against the Top 25. Not much different than Mick who has a better record against the Top 25 but not quite as successful in the tournament.

After 18 years of hard work, and a University that is solely committed to basketball, he has been able to bring some top talent into Spokane and had a nice three year run. What is interesting with Gonzaga is that they maintain a roster of 17 players including walk-ons.

Yes. What's more, you really can't compare UC to Gonzaga because the later does not have a football program. They put all their eggs in one basket because that is all they have. UC does not have that luxury.
 
03-20-2017 10:52 AM
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BearcatsUC Offline
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-19-2017 11:54 PM)bearcat2020 Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 11:43 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  ...are...

well I am gonna blame that on the pain from the soul crushing defeat...

Only you have the ability to edit this...
 
03-20-2017 01:36 PM
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BearcatsUC Offline
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 10:10 AM)Bcatbog Wrote:  1. One way to consider the question is to speculate what our record would be in a P5 conference with this team. 2. The other thing to speculate on would be how different our recruiting would be in a P5 conference. 3. How many P5 schools would hire Mick if he made himself available.

I suspect the answer to 1 is we may have had some thing like a 20 and 12 record. The answer to 2 is better. The answer to 3 is a lot.

I would say that if Gonzaga can be a top team every year - then it can be done outside of a P5 conference.

Gang, when the BE blew up on us our chance at the national stage was seriously lessened. It simply is what it is.

UC can perform better. If XAVIER can regularly reach the Sweet 16, UC certainly can.
 
03-20-2017 01:37 PM
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bearcatmark Online
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 01:37 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 10:10 AM)Bcatbog Wrote:  1. One way to consider the question is to speculate what our record would be in a P5 conference with this team. 2. The other thing to speculate on would be how different our recruiting would be in a P5 conference. 3. How many P5 schools would hire Mick if he made himself available.

I suspect the answer to 1 is we may have had some thing like a 20 and 12 record. The answer to 2 is better. The answer to 3 is a lot.

I would say that if Gonzaga can be a top team every year - then it can be done outside of a P5 conference.

Gang, when the BE blew up on us our chance at the national stage was seriously lessened. It simply is what it is.

UC can perform better. If XAVIER can regularly reach the Sweet 16, UC certainly can.

Holy **** we agree.
 
03-20-2017 01:44 PM
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
Our peer programs are still what they were prior to our departure from the Big East. Louisville, WVU, Pittsburgh, Memphis, and to a lesser degree, Butler, Dayton and Xavier for basketball only. Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.
 
03-20-2017 02:13 PM
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Our peer programs are still what they were prior to our departure from the Big East. Louisville, WVU, Pittsburgh, Memphis, and to a lesser degree, Butler, Dayton and Xavier for basketball only. Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

In football we've had 18 matchups with these 3. We're a whopping 2-16 with those 2 Ws coming against Kentucky.

We're a fine institution with unfounded high expectations. Someone mentioned maybe earlier or in another thread that Sweet 16s aren't championships. To a program at our level that's exactly what they are.
 
03-20-2017 03:16 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Our peer programs are still what they were prior to our departure from the Big East. Louisville, WVU, Pittsburgh, Memphis, and to a lesser degree, Butler, Dayton and Xavier for basketball only. Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

In football we've had 18 matchups with these 3. We're a whopping 2-16 with those 2 Ws coming against Kentucky.

We're a fine institution with unfounded high expectations. Someone mentioned maybe earlier or in another thread that Sweet 16s aren't championships. To a program at our level that's exactly what they are.

UK, IU, OSU.

One of these is not like the other two. There have been entire decades when our program was better than OSU's.
 
03-20-2017 03:21 PM
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 03:21 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Our peer programs are still what they were prior to our departure from the Big East. Louisville, WVU, Pittsburgh, Memphis, and to a lesser degree, Butler, Dayton and Xavier for basketball only. Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

In football we've had 18 matchups with these 3. We're a whopping 2-16 with those 2 Ws coming against Kentucky.

We're a fine institution with unfounded high expectations. Someone mentioned maybe earlier or in another thread that Sweet 16s aren't championships. To a program at our level that's exactly what they are.

UK, IU, OSU.

One of these is not like the other two. There have been entire decades when our program was better than OSU's.

Catlett beat IU once.
 
03-20-2017 04:01 PM
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Billy_Bearcat Offline
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 04:01 PM)chatcat Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 03:21 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Our peer programs are still what they were prior to our departure from the Big East. Louisville, WVU, Pittsburgh, Memphis, and to a lesser degree, Butler, Dayton and Xavier for basketball only. Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

In football we've had 18 matchups with these 3. We're a whopping 2-16 with those 2 Ws coming against Kentucky.

We're a fine institution with unfounded high expectations. Someone mentioned maybe earlier or in another thread that Sweet 16s aren't championships. To a program at our level that's exactly what they are.

UK, IU, OSU.

One of these is not like the other two. There have been entire decades when our program was better than OSU's.

Catlett beat IU once.

There is no record I can find of that.
 
03-20-2017 04:18 PM
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bearcat_df Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Who is Our Peers?
Our peers at this moment are the other teams in the ACC and high majors playing in mid major conferences - Gonzaga, Wichita State, Dayton. As long as we are in the AAC, U of L, Syracuse, Pitt are no longer our peers.

I'd like to think that Xavier and Butler are our peers, but I think their conference puts them one notch above us.

Some people want to minimize the impact of being in a mid-major conference, but I believe it puts a significant ceiling on our program. The primary limit is the level of talent that will be interested in coming to UC. Several people have commented that UConn and Memphis need to get back to a higher level. I think they are indicators of the impact the AAC is having on programs. I give credit to Cronin for getting the talent level that we do have.

Here is a sobering article about the talent required to get to the sweet 16.
http://www.scout.com/college/basketball/...e-sweet-16

Finally, I think Huggins lack of tournament success at the end of his tenure and Cronin's current lack of tournament success are both a function of how hard it is to recruit top level talent to a mid-major conference.
 
03-20-2017 04:38 PM
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cincybb51 Offline
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 04:18 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 04:01 PM)chatcat Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 03:21 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Our peer programs are still what they were prior to our departure from the Big East. Louisville, WVU, Pittsburgh, Memphis, and to a lesser degree, Butler, Dayton and Xavier for basketball only. Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

In football we've had 18 matchups with these 3. We're a whopping 2-16 with those 2 Ws coming against Kentucky.

We're a fine institution with unfounded high expectations. Someone mentioned maybe earlier or in another thread that Sweet 16s aren't championships. To a program at our level that's exactly what they are.

UK, IU, OSU.

One of these is not like the other two. There have been entire decades when our program was better than OSU's.

Catlett beat IU once.

There is no record I can find of that.

1976-77 season 52-43 The only time after our National Championships OSU, UK or Indiana played us in the sixties or seventies when we had strong teams. Heck those three in total have only played at Fifth Third a total of 2 times.
 
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2017 05:29 PM by cincybb51.)
03-20-2017 04:46 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 04:38 PM)bearcat_df Wrote:  Our peers at this moment are the other teams in the ACC and high majors playing in mid major conferences - Gonzaga, Wichita State, Dayton. As long as we are in the AAC, U of L, Syracuse, Pitt are no longer our peers.

I'd like to think that Xavier and Butler are our peers, but I think their conference puts them one notch above us.

Some people want to minimize the impact of being in a mid-major conference, but I believe it puts a significant ceiling on our program. The primary limit is the level of talent that will be interested in coming to UC. Several people have commented that UConn and Memphis need to get back to a higher level. I think they are indicators of the impact the AAC is having on programs. I give credit to Cronin for getting the talent level that we do have.

Here is a sobering article about the talent required to get to the sweet 16.
http://www.scout.com/college/basketball/...e-sweet-16

Finally, I think Huggins lack of tournament success at the end of his tenure and Cronin's current lack of tournament success are both a function of how hard it is to recruit top level talent to a mid-major conference.

Nah, you can recruit and maintain a very competitive program out of many conferences. Metro/Great Midwest/CUSA, Cincy, Ville, Memphis Marquette etc., a bunch of tourney appearances, Elite 8's, Final Fours, and National Champs (Ville).
It is hard to keep up with the Blue Bloods, but UC can compete with and beat anyone else. Huggs beat UNC and Duke when he was here. Mick almost has UC at .500 all time vs. UConn.

We had a tough draw this year going out to Cali and playing UCLA. A better draw and UC is in the S 16. If you have the reputation, facilities, all your games televised, and consistent coaching staff you can win every year.
 
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2017 05:01 PM by SuperFlyBCat.)
03-20-2017 05:00 PM
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Our peer programs are still what they were prior to our departure from the Big East. Louisville, WVU, Pittsburgh, Memphis, and to a lesser degree, Butler, Dayton and Xavier for basketball only. Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

In football we've had 18 matchups with these 3. We're a whopping 2-16 with those 2 Ws coming against Kentucky.

We're a fine institution with unfounded high expectations. Someone mentioned maybe earlier or in another thread that Sweet 16s aren't championships. To a program at our level that's exactly what they are.

I am leaning toward agreeing with Billy in his assessment here....tough to argue against it.
 
03-20-2017 05:49 PM
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 05:49 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Our peer programs are still what they were prior to our departure from the Big East. Louisville, WVU, Pittsburgh, Memphis, and to a lesser degree, Butler, Dayton and Xavier for basketball only. Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

In football we've had 18 matchups with these 3. We're a whopping 2-16 with those 2 Ws coming against Kentucky.

We're a fine institution with unfounded high expectations. Someone mentioned maybe earlier or in another thread that Sweet 16s aren't championships. To a program at our level that's exactly what they are.

I am leaning toward agreeing with Billy in his assessment here....tough to argue against it.

Do you also agree that the big three generally have cherry-picked when they want to schedule us. After Huggins final four season none of them have set foot in Cincinnati against us.
 
03-20-2017 05:56 PM
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Billy_Bearcat Offline
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RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 05:56 PM)cincybb51 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 05:49 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Our peer programs are still what they were prior to our departure from the Big East. Louisville, WVU, Pittsburgh, Memphis, and to a lesser degree, Butler, Dayton and Xavier for basketball only. Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

In football we've had 18 matchups with these 3. We're a whopping 2-16 with those 2 Ws coming against Kentucky.

We're a fine institution with unfounded high expectations. Someone mentioned maybe earlier or in another thread that Sweet 16s aren't championships. To a program at our level that's exactly what they are.

I am leaning toward agreeing with Billy in his assessment here....tough to argue against it.

Do you also agree that the big three generally have cherry-picked when they want to schedule us. After Huggins final four season none of them have set foot in Cincinnati against us.

Certainly that's part of it. Makes it all the more disappointing that we haven't taken the opportunity when it does actually present itself.
 
03-20-2017 06:59 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Who is Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 01:36 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 11:54 PM)bearcat2020 Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 11:43 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  ...are...

well I am gonna blame that on the pain from the soul crushing defeat...

Only you have the ability to edit this...

The mods do too, but there is no profanity or otherwise offensive language in his post or title (unless you are an English Nazi). So, I'm letting it go.
 
03-20-2017 07:33 PM
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RE: Who are Our Peers?
(03-20-2017 05:56 PM)cincybb51 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 05:49 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 03:16 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 02:13 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Our peer programs are still what they were prior to our departure from the Big East. Louisville, WVU, Pittsburgh, Memphis, and to a lesser degree, Butler, Dayton and Xavier for basketball only. Having said that, we still need to compete with UK, IU and yes, OSU.

As a diehard UC fan I think we need to stop this charade. We cannot compete with these schools in the modern era. Never have. Never will. Since our National Championship in 1962 we've had a crack at all these guys a total of 10 times in basketball. Wanna guess how many we've won?

In football we've had 18 matchups with these 3. We're a whopping 2-16 with those 2 Ws coming against Kentucky.

We're a fine institution with unfounded high expectations. Someone mentioned maybe earlier or in another thread that Sweet 16s aren't championships. To a program at our level that's exactly what they are.

I am leaning toward agreeing with Billy in his assessment here....tough to argue against it.

Do you also agree that the big three generally have cherry-picked when they want to schedule us. After Huggins final four season none of them have set foot in Cincinnati against us.

This is a really great point. How many chances did we get with the Van Exel teams? How many chances did we get with the Fortson teams? Did Kmart's senior team get to play any of them? How about Logan's Senior year?

UC was a more successful program than Indiana and OSU in the 90s / Early 2000s. It's no surprise we didn't get games with them at that time.
 
03-20-2017 07:58 PM
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