I know we normally focus on Power schools and I think that's good. I'd like to take a moment though and focus on a few schools I think are worthy of moving up into the Power ranks.

One of the reasons I wanted to do that is precisely because of what Mike Slive said last week. I think these "very, very large conferences" could include a few G5s. My personal opinion is that the reason we may see this is due to the potential for maximizing market penetration. Obviously, a lot of schools wouldn't be worth the effort, but for a select few that have dedicated themselves to a better athletic department, the opportunity for investment might be worth it in the long run.

All in all, I think we'll have a hard time moving to giant leagues without one of two things happening...

1. Multiple Power leagues falling apart.
or
2. A few G5s getting the call up to make the numbers work.

Granting that there is only so much money to go around in a new era of cost cutting, I'm betting that certain new investments may be valued higher than a few long standing programs.

Anyway, let me argue for the candidacy of a few additions. In no particular order...

1. San Diego State: Large state school. Large market in Southern California that now has no NFL competition and will likely never have NFL competition again. Obviously, there's access to talent nearby and if the reported plans of partnering on a new stadium with an MLS franchise are true then SDSU should have a top notch facility. Decent football and good basketball also make the program attractive. The state of CA is the largest in the country. There are four major programs in the state and while the local culture prevents a great many more from ascending, it can still be argued that the market is under-tapped.

2. Colorado State: The state of CO has been growing by leaps and bounds the last few decades. CSU has a really nice academic profile and is finishing construction on a new stadium. The quality of competition has never been stellar, but this would be more about grabbing the other flagship school in the state of CO. Denver is a growing market thanks in part to so many people leaving CA. The interesting thing about CU is that they've always been in a Power league with the accompanying money and exposure. CSU has never had that advantage and is a roughly equal program aside from this past year's Buffaloes performance.

3. Houston: Located in one of the largest cities in the country that also happens to be in one of the largest and most football crazy states. They've picked up their commitment recently with a new stadium and new basketball arena. They used to be in the SWC and lost their status due to too many TX schools being in one league. They flirted with the SEC in the 80s though so does their loss of Power status mean they couldn't contribute to another major league? I don't think so.

4. Tulane: Academically excellent as an AAU school, they might have proved themselves not that smart when they bailed on the SEC back in the 60s. Nonetheless, they've made a greater commitment to athletics in recent years. They finally built their own football stadium and got themselves into the AAC, a best of the rest type conference. The New Orleans market and LA as a whole is a great market for college athletics. There's also the fact that LSU is the only true Power program in the state. In other words, there's room for another. The only problem is that the Tulane fan base is small. It's harder to argue for Tulane for most leagues, but there is potential for a program that can afford to fund itself for the long term as TU is an old school with an elite alumni base.

5. Cincinnati: It's the 2nd largest school in the large and football crazy state of OH. UC is a strong academic school with a growing alumni base. The football and basketball have always been pretty good, but like most of these schools they've never had the exposure and money of a Power league to help build themselves up on.

6. UConn: An elite program when it comes to basketball, the problem UConn has is that they never took football seriously until a few years back when they've finally moved up to FBS. Nonetheless, they are a flagship institution in a state with no pro franchises that also happens to have a decent fan base in nearby NYC. They also generate pretty good revenue for a school that doesn't really have a relevant football program at this time.

7. UCF/USF: I'm guessing only one of these schools makes it assuming either one does so I'm highlighting both. They both generate about the same amount of interest in largely populated regions of the growing state of FL. UCF has its own football stadium while USF is a better academic school. Both are huge schools as far as enrollment goes although neither have been around all that long...about 50 years or so. UCF began football in 1979, but is an elder statesman compared to USF who began the sport in 1997. Although, USF was admitted to a BCS league in 2003...the Big East. The USF Bulls haven't been around as long, but seem to have progressed further in a shorter period of time. They also play more sports overall. All in all, I think either school would be a good investment although I'd lean to USF if I were picking for a particular league.

Basically, I think these are the schools that have a shot. There are a few honorable mentions such as East Carolina, Memphis, SMU, UNLV, New Mexico, Boise State, and Temple. Those are programs that have potential under certain circumstances, but don't seem to have as much going for them. So I didn't include them because I think the negatives outweigh the positives.

In light of the theory on G5s....what about this sort of alignment?

SEC takes Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Kansas State, and West Virginia

ACC takes Texas, Baylor, Cincinnati, and gets Notre Dame to go all in

B1G takes Kansas, Iowa State, Colorado State, and UConn

PAC takes Texas Tech, TCU, Houston, and Tulane

I forgot to mention this earlier, but I want to throw this out there as well.

Several years ago, Mr. SEC mentioned to me in a conversation that it was possible the SEC might look at Cincinnati under certain circumstances. While it's true that the market model was more relevant then, he was actually discussing this as a possibility within what was then the new "autonomous" framework.

The theory went something like this...as the Power leagues become autonomous it was more likely that they would seek out additional members not directly for revenue purposes, but to gain votes. The goal was this...if a league gains more votes under one roof then they're more likely to get their pet legislation passed despite protests of other leagues. Now, if I remember correctly I believe he was saying the Power leagues would be competing with each other for influence within the new autonomous framework. This is one of the reasons the Big 12 is in trouble among others. No one wants to join that mess and so the voting influence of a league like that will always be deficient.

With that said, it also makes sense to me that the Power leagues would want to make their voting blocs as large as they could in order to make a transition to a new division or a new association more smooth. The more schools involved, the fewer losses sustained by the other DI schools when things start picking up steam.

I think it's possible this was an aspect of Slive's speaking to the change in nature and substance of the new college athletics world. It may very well not be mega leagues as we have theorized, but a chance in who gets in and who doesn't based on a power grab rather than a revenue grab.

(03-12-2017 10:57 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  In light of the theory on G5s....what about this sort of alignment?
...
B1G takes Kansas, Iowa State, Colorado State, and UConn
...

Sounds good -- where do I send a kidney to make this happen? {chuckle}

Thanks for thinking of the G5s, Tide. Looking forward to CSU's return to Alabama this fall.

Houston also was considered for the sec back in the early 50s and had a sponsor with one of the Mississippi schools, not sure why it did not happen but it took the sec a year to say no
Iam not sure Houston would be a good fit in the sec, but there are a few schools that would seem natural to play, Arkansas, LSU, Texas A&M
It would be fun to watch the battle for tickets between Houston fans and A&M, LSU fans for home and away games

(03-14-2017 01:25 PM)JHS55 Wrote:  Houston also was considered for the sec back in the early 50s and had a sponsor with one of the Mississippi schools, not sure why it did not happen but it took the sec a year to say no
Iam not sure Houston would be a good fit in the sec, but there are a few schools that would seem natural to play, Arkansas, LSU, Texas A&M
It would be fun to watch the battle for tickets between Houston fans and A&M, LSU fans for home and away games

In the 50's everyone was still thinking in terms of close geography. Houston would have been a good rival for L.S.U. and Tulane at that time (both of which were SEC in the 50's), but not really close for anyone else.

You were in the discussion in the early 90's, but not in the primary plans, but as a possible back up position to get into the Texas market. A&M covered that for us the last time around.

Alltiedup it's interesting to note that you did not include an " elite G5
" in your own SEC expansion, your the OP, gotta bite the bullit with the rest, at least in this thread, come on, who would you pick from the elite G5 ?
Be careful who you pick, your opinion Carrys a lot of weight indeed, you might set off a fire storm of excitement from some hungery G5 fan base

(03-14-2017 02:43 PM)JHS55 Wrote:  Alltiedup it's interesting to note that you did not include an " elite G5
" in your own SEC expansion, your the OP, gotta bite the bullit with the rest, at least in this thread, come on, who would you pick from the elite G5 ?
Be careful who you pick, your opinion Carrys a lot of weight indeed, you might set off a fire storm of excitement from some hungery G5 fan base

Well, my opinion and a few bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks...lol

I think Houston probably has the most potential of any of these schools, but we've already got A&M so UH wouldn't really change the game for us. Personally, I think Cincinnati would probably be the most valuable to us. OH is a border state, a large market, and UC is a pretty good school. I also like Colorado State, but we'd really have to add a few to the West before that sort of move would be feasible.

If you think Tulane has more potential than Temple, ECU and Memphis (and really SMU too because they're so exceedingly wealthy and in Texas), you are on drugs.

From 2011-2016 we are 41-35 (.539) with back-to-back 10 win seasons, 2 conference championship appearances, and 1 conference championship. We're nowhere near where we can be as a program either, and that's with potentially two first round picks this year.

From 2011-2016 Tulane is 21-53 (.284) and nothing to show for it.

We're also 3-0 against them in the AAC with a 90-13 points for/points against.

Louisiana football is great and all, but so is Pennsylvania and New Jersey football.

If we can get this on-campus stadium built, we will really be cookin.

(03-15-2017 01:24 AM)JHG722 Wrote:  If you think Tulane has more potential than Temple, ECU and Memphis (and really SMU too because they're so exceedingly wealthy and in Texas), you are on drugs.

From 2011-2016 we are 41-35 (.539) with back-to-back 10 win seasons, 2 conference championship appearances, and 1 conference championship. We're nowhere near where we can be as a program either, and that's with potentially two first round picks this year.

From 2011-2016 Tulane is 21-53 (.284) and nothing to show for it.

We're also 3-0 against them in the AAC with a 90-13 points for/points against.

Louisiana football is great and all, but so is Pennsylvania and New Jersey football.

If we can get this on-campus stadium built, we will really be cookin.

Better football the last few years? Sure. Boise State has had some really fine football the last decade or so, but that doesn't mean they're getting in. Point is, it's about far more than a football record.

Anyway, Temple does have potential, but they haven't really committed to the athletic department yet. They don't have an on campus stadium and that region of the country is notoriously pro sports heavy which is an automatic knock against any upstart program.

But the main reason I didn't include them is because the leagues that occupy that portion of the country...the B1G and ACC...already have tapped those markets. Temple's small fan base is a strike against any league that would be interested in doubling down.

(03-15-2017 01:43 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  Anyway, Temple does have potential, but they haven't really committed to the athletic department yet.

But the main reason I didn't include them is because the leagues that occupy that portion of the country...the B1G and ACC...already have tapped those markets. Temple's small fan base is a strike against any league that would be interested in doubling down.

lolwhat?

$13M in renovations to our football practice facility in the last 6 years.
Several hundred thousand to repurpose an old indoor campus rec facility into an indoor football facility. Much more will definitely be coming in the next few years.

$60M renovation of our main campus rec facility to turn it into men's and women's basketball practice facilities, coaches offices, NBA level workout facilities, etc. Also includes our old basketball arena which is used by our women's team for some games, and received a bit of a renovation. Finished in 2012.

$4M renovation of our basketball arena adding a new roof, a new scoreboard and video ribbons encircling the arena. Finished in 2012.

$22M Olympic sports complex housing soccer, lacrosse, field hockey and track. Opened last year.

$6M renovation of our boathouse. Opened last week.

That's $105M in the last 6 years, but we're not committed to athletics? Okay.

Small fanbase? Yeah, and Tulane, which has under 2,000 more undergrads than our business school has students is really working with a big fanbase.

Well I guess The bearcats will enjoy that cup of coffee then proceed to get mauled a lot ! ...

(03-15-2017 02:07 AM)JHG722 Wrote:  

(03-15-2017 01:43 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  Anyway, Temple does have potential, but they haven't really committed to the athletic department yet.

But the main reason I didn't include them is because the leagues that occupy that portion of the country...the B1G and ACC...already have tapped those markets. Temple's small fan base is a strike against any league that would be interested in doubling down.

lolwhat?

$13M in renovations to our football practice facility in the last 6 years.
Several hundred thousand to repurpose an old indoor campus rec facility into an indoor football facility. Much more will definitely be coming in the next few years.

$60M renovation of our main campus rec facility to turn it into men's and women's basketball practice facilities, coaches offices, NBA level workout facilities, etc. Also includes our old basketball arena which is used by our women's team for some games, and received a bit of a renovation. Finished in 2012.

$4M renovation of our basketball arena adding a new roof, a new scoreboard and video ribbons encircling the arena. Finished in 2012.

$22M Olympic sports complex housing soccer, lacrosse, field hockey and track. Opened last year.

$6M renovation of our boathouse. Opened last week.

That's $105M in the last 6 years, but we're not committed to athletics? Okay.

Small fanbase? Yeah, and Tulane, which has under 2,000 more undergrads than our business school has students is really working with a big fanbase.

Don't be so sensitive. I'm not knocking Temple.

You're not really that committed to athletics unless you've got an on-campus football stadium. Football is where most of the money is made and, yes, it's about money. As soon as you make that leap and consistently fill up the stadium then we'll talk.

Yes, Tulane has a small fan base. I never said they didn't. At best, you're making an argument for Tulane's exclusion, not Temple's inclusion. Are you saying Temple has a huge fan base? They don't. Sorry.

What Tulane has is an elite academic reputation and presence in a market that has a dearth of major college programs while not also having such a deep love affair with pro sports franchises. That makes a difference. There's a reason the Northeast has a huge population and yet very few major college programs.

Gr8 job backtracking, as if you had any clue what we've done in terms of facilities. You're obviously not aware of what it takes to build a stadium in a major city like Philly. You can't just plop one up overnight like you can in Alabama and Texas. That doesn't make us less dedicated to athletics, especially since building an on-campus stadium is one of our administration's top university priorities.

You know why there are very few major programs in the Northeast? Because there are very few universities with FBS football located in major cities.

UCLA and USC in LA
Washington in Seattle
Texas in Austin
Ohio State in Columbus
TCU in Fort Worth
Vandy in Nashville

That's it for P5 programs in the top 25 largest cities.

For G5 programs:

Houston in Houston
Temple in Philly
UTSA in San Antonio
San Diego State in San Diego
SMU in Dallas
San Jose State in San Jose
UNC Charlotte in Charlotte
UTEP in El Paso
Memphis in Memphis

NYC- Nothing (Rutgers is an hour away, Syracuse is really freakin far away)
Chicago- Nothing (Northwestern 30 minutes away, Notre Dame 2 hours away, Illinois 2 hours away)
Phoenix- Nothing (ASU 20 minutes away, UofA 2 hours away)
Jacksonville- Nothing (UF 1.5 hours away, UCF 2 hours away, FSU 2.5 hours away)
SF- Nothing (Cal 25 minutes, Stanford 40 minutes)
Indianapolis- Nothing (IU is an hour away)
Denver- Nothing (CU is 35 minutes away)
Detroit- Nothing (Michigan is 50 minutes away, MSU is 1.5 hours away)
DC- Nothing (Maryland is 30 minutes away)
Boston- Nothing (BC is about 12 minutes away)

Look at where most of the larger universities are. They're mostly in college towns outside of large metro areas. Penn State is in the absolute middle of nowhere. They can do whatever they want because no one lives there and nothing they do impacts anything other than cows. It's the 19th largest place in Pennsylvania with 42,xxx people. By comparison, the township I grew up in has nearly 60,000 people.

We're at a severe disadvantage compared to schools in middle of nowhere college towns, but we're still making the best of it. To say we're not dedicated to athletics is completely asinine.

(03-16-2017 01:39 AM)JHG722 Wrote:  Gr8 job backtracking, as if you had any clue what we've done in terms of facilities. You're obviously not aware of what it takes to build a stadium in a major city like Philly. You can't just plop one up overnight like you can in Alabama and Texas. That doesn't make us less dedicated to athletics, especially since building an on-campus stadium is one of our administration's top university priorities.

You know why there are very few major programs in the Northeast? Because there are very few universities with FBS football located in major cities.

UCLA and USC in LA
Washington in Seattle
Texas in Austin
Ohio State in Columbus
TCU in Fort Worth
Vandy in Nashville

That's it for P5 programs in the top 25 largest cities.

For G5 programs:

Houston in Houston
Temple in Philly
UTSA in San Antonio
San Diego State in San Diego
SMU in Dallas
San Jose State in San Jose
UNC Charlotte in Charlotte
UTEP in El Paso
Memphis in Memphis

NYC- Nothing (Rutgers is an hour away, Syracuse is really freakin far away)
Chicago- Nothing (Northwestern 30 minutes away, Notre Dame 2 hours away, Illinois 2 hours away)
Phoenix- Nothing (ASU 20 minutes away, UofA 2 hours away)
Jacksonville- Nothing (UF 1.5 hours away, UCF 2 hours away, FSU 2.5 hours away)
SF- Nothing (Cal 25 minutes, Stanford 40 minutes)
Indianapolis- Nothing (IU is an hour away)
Denver- Nothing (CU is 35 minutes away)
Detroit- Nothing (Michigan is 50 minutes away, MSU is 1.5 hours away)
DC- Nothing (Maryland is 30 minutes away)
Boston- Nothing (BC is about 12 minutes away)

Look at where most of the larger universities are. They're mostly in college towns outside of large metro areas. Penn State is in the absolute middle of nowhere. They can do whatever they want because no one lives there and nothing they do impacts anything other than cows. It's the 19th largest place in Pennsylvania with 42,xxx people. By comparison, the township I grew up in has nearly 60,000 people.

We're at a severe disadvantage compared to schools in middle of nowhere college towns, but we're still making the best of it. To say we're not dedicated to athletics is completely asinine.

Georgia Tech / Atlanta?

(03-16-2017 01:39 AM)JHG722 Wrote:  Gr8 job backtracking, as if you had any clue what we've done in terms of facilities. You're obviously not aware of what it takes to build a stadium in a major city like Philly. You can't just plop one up overnight like you can in Alabama and Texas. That doesn't make us less dedicated to athletics, especially since building an on-campus stadium is one of our administration's top university priorities.

You know why there are very few major programs in the Northeast? Because there are very few universities with FBS football located in major cities.

UCLA and USC in LA
Washington in Seattle
Texas in Austin
Ohio State in Columbus
TCU in Fort Worth
Vandy in Nashville

That's it for P5 programs in the top 25 largest cities.

For G5 programs:

Houston in Houston
Temple in Philly
UTSA in San Antonio
San Diego State in San Diego
SMU in Dallas
San Jose State in San Jose
UNC Charlotte in Charlotte
UTEP in El Paso
Memphis in Memphis

NYC- Nothing (Rutgers is an hour away, Syracuse is really freakin far away)
Chicago- Nothing (Northwestern 30 minutes away, Notre Dame 2 hours away, Illinois 2 hours away)
Phoenix- Nothing (ASU 20 minutes away, UofA 2 hours away)
Jacksonville- Nothing (UF 1.5 hours away, UCF 2 hours away, FSU 2.5 hours away)
SF- Nothing (Cal 25 minutes, Stanford 40 minutes)
Indianapolis- Nothing (IU is an hour away)
Denver- Nothing (CU is 35 minutes away)
Detroit- Nothing (Michigan is 50 minutes away, MSU is 1.5 hours away)
DC- Nothing (Maryland is 30 minutes away)
Boston- Nothing (BC is about 12 minutes away)

Look at where most of the larger universities are. They're mostly in college towns outside of large metro areas. Penn State is in the absolute middle of nowhere. They can do whatever they want because no one lives there and nothing they do impacts anything other than cows. It's the 19th largest place in Pennsylvania with 42,xxx people. By comparison, the township I grew up in has nearly 60,000 people.

We're at a severe disadvantage compared to schools in middle of nowhere college towns, but we're still making the best of it. To say we're not dedicated to athletics is completely asinine.

This is the reason I don't bother posting over on the main board. There are far too many G5ers like you who can't handle even the slightest hint of non-partisanship towards your program. In hindsight, it was probably foolish of me to even both highlighting certain G5 programs because there was bound to be some jerk who couldn't handle the idea of his own program not being worshipped.

Look, your program has potential. I clearly stated that multiple times or did you not bother to read that? The point of this thread was to highlight programs I thought had a shot at moving up into the Power ranks in the not too distant future. It was not an exhaustive list of every conceivable program that has spent a little money over the years upping their game. The expenditures you're highlighting are not that unusual, but you seem to think they're indicative of a program on the cusp. They aren't. Having you been paying attention to the money Georgia State just dropped on Turner Field to renovate the stadium and develop the property? No, you probably haven't because you don't take the time to see past your own nose. Anyway, Georgia State made a great decision AND will have an on-campus stadium very soon. Guess what! I didn't put them on the list either! You know why? Because they don't add value to any current Power league as it is currently constituted. It's really not that controversial of a concept.

As another example of your program not really being committed to athletics, you don't play baseball or softball which are close to being revenue sports these days. You don't play hockey either which is a strange thing for a major program in that part of the country. There are probably other things I could find if I cared enough to take the time to dig through the financials of a program that the vast majority of people in its own city probably don't care about. When you're program starts entering the bottom third of revenue for POWER programs then we'll talk about how committed you are. Right now, you're comparing yourself to Villanova or someone on that level. Are you more committed to athletics than Villanova? Certainly, but that won't get you into the P5.

In addition, it's not my problem that your program is based in a crowded city. It's not anyone else's problem either. The reason there are very few Power programs in the Northeast is because there are very few schools interested in making the investment. And probably because the fan interest is low and always has been low. We're not talking about programs based in major cities...that's another discussion unto itself. I said there's a reason there are very few major programs in the Northeast which includes both major cities and rural towns. What...we've got BC, UConn, Syracuse, Rutgers, Penn State, and Pittsburgh? That's it. Half of those aren't even located in major cities either. Most of the major institutions in that part of the country are not interested because the fan support is minimal. That's the bottom line.

For the record, I didn't backtrack on anything. I was being diplomatic. Lastly, why you're so worried about the opinion of one guy on the internet, I don't know, but you're clearly too thin-skinned to have a decent and mature conversation so I won't bother with you any further. Have fun defending the honor of your program against the nameless, faceless hoards of internet posters who have nothing better to do than diss Temple. You're definitely going to go down as a hero...

I understand why you would not want to post this on the main board but I wish you would, it's a good topic and would get a lot of clicks
Just the words " elite G5 " is like eye candy, if you were to make say a dollar for each click mybe you might ?

(03-16-2017 12:16 PM)JHS55 Wrote:  I understand why you would not want to post this on the main board but I wish you would, it's a good topic and would get a lot of clicks
Just the words " elite G5 " is like eye candy, if you were to make say a dollar for each click mybe you might ?

Can I get a guaranteed contract up front?

(03-16-2017 08:36 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(03-16-2017 12:16 PM)JHS55 Wrote:  I understand why you would not want to post this on the main board but I wish you would, it's a good topic and would get a lot of clicks
Just the words " elite G5 " is like eye candy, if you were to make say a dollar for each click mybe you might ?

Can I get a guaranteed contract up front?

You'll be guaranteed to get a lot of butt hurt fans.