(02-27-2017 07:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 07:10 PM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Simple solution. Women's/girls' competitions are open only to genetic females not taking any gender alteration drugs that would tend to be performance enhancing. Men's/boys' competitions are open competitions, open to all.

Nope..Not good enough for Tom. No compromise...period. The alphabets must get their way 100 percent.

Full equality. Nothing more, nothing less. And no, passing a bunch of rules in order to stop participation by Trans kids is targeting.
The issue with Owl's plan is that it makes M to F Trans kids compete in their incorrect gender. You want male wrestlers to compete against a kid with boobs?

Letting trans-boys compete with cis-boys is fine, but if you let trans-girls compete in the girls' categories then that's completely unfair against cis-girls. If your solution for equality for a tiny minority disproportionately impacts a majority of competing females then it is entirely unsatisfactory.

Tom doesn't give a rat's ass about the effect on anybody but the trans kids. The rest deserve zero consideration in his mind.

Maybe if there wasn't a concentrated and deliberate effort to marginalize, misgender, and outright discriminate against Trans kids, we could discuss a give and take. But you and I both know....there's no give on the anti-Trans side. No accommodation is too small for the GOP/Christians to not deny to Trans people. Even a friggin' pronoun. Even "stop using the word Tr(nny' as its really offensive and a demeaning pejorative.

There IS a concentrated effort going on here. Aimed directly at Trans persons.

If the minority is tiny then how can it impact so many women? And AGAIN, you guys (and the overwhelming majority of y'all are MEN) are trying to speak for women.

This is just another Trans scare.

We can't have Trans Fat or Trans AMs, but we get this. Satan suck a dick.

(02-27-2017 08:17 PM)gdunn Wrote:  We can't have Trans Fat or Trans AMs, but we get this. Satan suck a dick.

I'm sure there's still plenty of both of those in Hattiesburg.

(02-27-2017 08:01 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

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You can just look at it and see it had no business wrestled girls.

(02-27-2017 08:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 07:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 07:10 PM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Nope..Not good enough for Tom. No compromise...period. The alphabets must get their way 100 percent.

Full equality. Nothing more, nothing less. And no, passing a bunch of rules in order to stop participation by Trans kids is targeting.
The issue with Owl's plan is that it makes M to F Trans kids compete in their incorrect gender. You want male wrestlers to compete against a kid with boobs?

Letting trans-boys compete with cis-boys is fine, but if you let trans-girls compete in the girls' categories then that's completely unfair against cis-girls. If your solution for equality for a tiny minority disproportionately impacts a majority of competing females then it is entirely unsatisfactory.

Tom doesn't give a rat's ass about the effect on anybody but the trans kids. The rest deserve zero consideration in his mind.

Maybe if there wasn't a concentrated and deliberate effort to marginalize, misgender, and outright discriminate against Trans kids, we could discuss a give and take. But you and I both know....there's no give on the anti-Trans side. No accommodation is too small for the GOP/Christians to not deny to Trans people. Even a friggin' pronoun. Even "stop using the word Tr(nny' as its really offensive and a demeaning pejorative.

There IS a concentrated effort going on here. Aimed directly at Trans persons.

If the minority is tiny then how can it impact so many women? And AGAIN, you guys (and the overwhelming majority of y'all are MEN) are trying to speak for women.

This is just another Trans scare.

The minority can impact so many women because a single athlete has an effect on the whole field. I'm with you for a part of the argument, we all know the Texas legislature isn't exactly progressive, especially with LGBTTQQIAAP+ issues, but I was pointing out that your solution impacts females more than it does males, it is a sexist solution. I do not see a solution that is neither sexist nor transphobic, but that's what real world problems throw up.

As for men speaking for women, as I understand you are a cis-man who here is speaking for a trans-man. If you are a trans-man then I apologize but the cistriarchy constantly defines the world for trans-people from their cis-privileged position, it's quite offensive.

(02-27-2017 08:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 08:01 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

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You can just look at it and see it had no business wrestled girls.

CCCP

I watched 50 year old Garbrielle Ludwig play JUCO BB against the COS EAgles women's basketball team. Judging by her massive size, you'd think her team, the Mission Saints, would have won every game, but no it takes more than a Big Center. The COS Eagles beat them every time...we were so much quicker and better shooters.

Here's the interesting thing: Gabrielle got one of the women's schollies that prolly should have gone to a 'young woman' who needed it. Anyhow, Gabrielle is now an assistant women's BB coach at Mission....and I swear to y'all, the first time I saw that team with her playing ( 2012) , I thought the Mission head coach had hots for her...lol

http://missionsaints.com/sports/wbkb/coaches/index

The following article excerpt was taken from one written in 2012.
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2012/12/15/...this-fair/


"This story will likely cause powerful, emotional reactions from several different directions. It involves a 50-year-old father and Desert Storm veteran who wants to play college basketball again.

Before you answer the question about a college allowing someone more than twice the age of the average player to compete, realize that this person has likely just become the first to play competitive collegiate sports as a man and a woman.

You read that correctly.

Robert Ludwig, now Gabrielle Ludwig, a 50-year-old recent sex change operation recipient played for the JUCO women’s basketball team of Mission College in Santa Clara, Calif. "

(02-27-2017 08:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 08:01 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

You can just look at it and see it had no business wrestled girls.

Would be relevant if anyone said she did not have a right to wrestle boys. But nobody said that.

(02-27-2017 03:57 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 01:14 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:21 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  in ANY sport or organization originally dedicated to biological sex individuals? For example...

should M to F be allowed to participate in the WNBA, WPGA, American Professional Women's Association, Sociey of Womens Engineers, etc?

Likewise should F to M trans people be allowed to do the inverse?

Seems like the identity politics wing of the left is on a collision course.

Sports: Yes, but it should be determined by what they were born w/. Additionally, hormones that enhance performance should DQ them.

Other Organizations: Sure. Why not? As long as the org's members are good w/ it, then there's no reason to stop it.

So basically spend 100 million a year to promote cisgendered kids while insulting the Trans kids

I don't see where you're getting a $100 mm per year number, and I fail to see what's insulting about acknowledging that artificially high levels of steroids and testosterone are an advantage in most athletic competitions.

(02-27-2017 07:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 07:10 PM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Simple solution. Women's/girls' competitions are open only to genetic females not taking any gender alteration drugs that would tend to be performance enhancing. Men's/boys' competitions are open competitions, open to all.

Nope..Not good enough for Tom. No compromise...period. The alphabets must get their way 100 percent.

Full equality. Nothing more, nothing less. And no, passing a bunch of rules in order to stop participation by Trans kids is targeting.
The issue with Owl's plan is that it makes M to F Trans kids compete in their incorrect gender. You want male wrestlers to compete against a kid with boobs?

Letting trans-boys compete with cis-boys is fine, but if you let trans-girls compete in the girls' categories then that's completely unfair against cis-girls. If your solution for equality for a tiny minority disproportionately impacts a majority of competing females then it is entirely unsatisfactory.

Tom doesn't give a rat's ass about the effect on anybody but the trans kids. The rest deserve zero consideration in his mind.

Absolutely. The feelings of the gender confused take precent over everything else.

(02-27-2017 08:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 07:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 07:10 PM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Nope..Not good enough for Tom. No compromise...period. The alphabets must get their way 100 percent.

Full equality. Nothing more, nothing less. And no, passing a bunch of rules in order to stop participation by Trans kids is targeting.
The issue with Owl's plan is that it makes M to F Trans kids compete in their incorrect gender. You want male wrestlers to compete against a kid with boobs?

Letting trans-boys compete with cis-boys is fine, but if you let trans-girls compete in the girls' categories then that's completely unfair against cis-girls. If your solution for equality for a tiny minority disproportionately impacts a majority of competing females then it is entirely unsatisfactory.

Tom doesn't give a rat's ass about the effect on anybody but the trans kids. The rest deserve zero consideration in his mind.

Maybe if there wasn't a concentrated and deliberate effort to marginalize, misgender, and outright discriminate against Trans kids, we could discuss a give and take.

This is a defacto admission he understand this will hurt non trans kids and that he does not care about the harm.

Quote:But you and I both know....there's no give on the anti-Trans side.

I'm not sure if you know how a give/take works..

Quote:No accommodation is too small for the GOP/Christians to not deny to Trans people.

Many here, on this thread, have said that sand peds (or at least with peds whose concentration is below a give threshold) they are fine with this.

That's the give..

Quote:Even a friggin' pronoun. Even "stop using the word Tr(nny' as its really offensive and a demeaning pejorative.

And this is the problem with the left. You're more concerned with restricting the rights of others than finding a middle ground.

Quote:If the minority is tiny then how can it impact so many women? And AGAIN, you guys (and the overwhelming majority of y'all are MEN) are trying to speak for women.

And you are trying to speak for trans people. Funny that.

I have a wife and multiple daughters, so yea, women's issues matter to me.

(02-27-2017 08:19 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 08:17 PM)gdunn Wrote:  We can't have Trans Fat or Trans AMs, but we get this. Satan suck a dick.

I'm sure there's still plenty of both of those in Hattiesburg.

And Mobile is a center for enlightenment...

(02-27-2017 08:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Maybe if there wasn't a concentrated and deliberate effort to marginalize, misgender

Stopped reading here. Did you think about how absurd this sounds?

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

(02-28-2017 09:14 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 08:19 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 08:17 PM)gdunn Wrote:  We can't have Trans Fat or Trans AMs, but we get this. Satan suck a dick.

I'm sure there's still plenty of both of those in Hattiesburg.

And Mobile is a center for enlightenment...

Not anymore, this is true.

(02-27-2017 08:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Maybe if there wasn't a concentrated and deliberate effort to marginalize, misgender, and outright discriminate against Trans kids, we could discuss a give and take.

I have very specifically given you an opportunity for a give and take Tom... and I have not tried to marginalize, misgender or outright discriminate against anyone.

And you have completely failed in any way to engage in anything remotely resembling a discussion, much less a give and take.

So far your primary response to everything I've said is to ignore it and associate some opinion to 'everyone' who doesn't simply agree with you. You've not been rude to me personally and I appreciate that, but you've shown a complete inability to engage in rational discourse with people who are open to listening to you give rational response.

All you've got is:
that won't work...
they won't do it...
they're awful people...
I'm a victim....

Seriously... A Trans-young woman just won the Texas UIL State Championship and you're on here railing about how Texas and the UIL is 'out to get' Trans persons??

You're this way about EVERY issue.

(02-28-2017 11:40 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 08:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Maybe if there wasn't a concentrated and deliberate effort to marginalize, misgender, and outright discriminate against Trans kids, we could discuss a give and take.

I have very specifically given you an opportunity for a give and take Tom... and I have not tried to marginalize, misgender or outright discriminate against anyone.

And you have completely failed in any way to engage in anything remotely resembling a discussion, much less a give and take.

So far your primary response to everything I've said is to ignore it and associate some opinion to 'everyone' who doesn't simply agree with you. You've not been rude to me personally and I appreciate that, but you've shown a complete inability to engage in rational discourse with people who are open to listening to you give rational response.

All you've got is:
that won't work...
they won't do it...
they're awful people...
I'm a victim....

Seriously... A Trans-young woman just won the Texas UIL State Championship and you're on here railing about how Texas and the UIL is 'out to get' Trans persons??

You're this way about EVERY issue.

They thought that misgendering was going to be enough to ban them. Mack, to his credit, decided to put up with the misgendering. We all know that the UIL will get very creative with a 'bill of attainder' legislation to basically prevent every single Trans kid from participating in UIL team contact sports (probably all sports). They'll ensure that EVERY drug used in Transitioning, regardless of any enhancement, will be a banned substance.

They don't want him on the men's team (they voted to specifically exclude that). They don't want him on the women's team. They don't want him to EXIST.

Oh I fully expect they'll try to ban Trans persons. The UIL head has already said they're running to legislature to ban Trans persons from the millions of dollars in taxpayer funded sports at public schools. Of course, they'll phrase it as a drug ban, but one that will completely exclude Trans persons from competing, so long as they are Trans. Expect some big fat equal protection lawsuits on that. Maybe we don't argue the drug route, but rather sue to get all the funding removed, seeing as they claim there's no way that a Trans person can compete. Why should the state pay for billions in high school stadiums so that they can only be used for the benefit of cisgendered kids? And I'm sure we can find ample evidence of bias against Trans kids from those proposing those laws.

And if its safe enough to create a non-UIL association for Trans kids, its safe enough for the kids to compete in UIL. Trying to create some 'special Olympics' for Trans kids is the same as admitting that its perfectly safe for them compete, but that the UIL just doesn't want to allow them to compete. That's a horrendous "solution" and one that will further marginalize and exclude Trans kids from the benefits of team sports participation with their classmates. Which is, of course, the entire point. To remove Trans kids from inclusion.

We're learning. People don't care about the economy. People don't care about schools. People don't care about anything but sports. Mess with that, and get attention.

---

This was a one off, and everyone knows it. Mack will be barred from competing on any UIL high school team at his school next year. Count on it. Unless the courts intervene. I'm glad he made the most of it.

I'm sure there are medical conditions where people can't produce hormones themselves and take supplements for that. I really don't see how anti-doping is going to discriminate against trans people. they are incorruptible institutions who are above petty politics and as I said I'm sure they have had to deal with these types of medication before.

(02-28-2017 03:06 PM)john01992 Wrote:  I'm sure there are medical conditions where people can't produce hormones themselves and take supplements for that. I really don't see how anti-doping is going to discriminate against trans people. they are incorruptible institutions who are above petty politics and as I said I'm sure they have had to deal with these types of medication before.

LOL. You're being sarcastic, right?

Currently the UIL allows for athletes to compete, even on certain meds, if a doctor says it is 'medically necessary'. They'll change those rules and put every transitioning drug on the list. Specifically to ban Trans kids.

Its Texas. Its the UIL, where rural and unwelcoming school boards get extra proportional representation. A school with 100 kids gets the same vote as a school district with 1,000,000 kids.

Perhpas the solution is to get HISD and the other big school districts to remove themselves from the UIL. Let the high school in Devine play the high school in Iraan in the UIL. Dallas and Houston schools will be competing elsewhere...That would be awesome.

(02-28-2017 03:06 PM)john01992 Wrote:  I'm sure there are medical conditions where people can't produce hormones themselves and take supplements for that. I really don't see how anti-doping is going to discriminate against trans people. they are incorruptible institutions who are above petty politics and as I said I'm sure they have had to deal with these types of medication before.

The do, and there are guidelines to what is medical usage that is not PEDs abuse and what usage *is* peds abuse.

What I find really troubling here is tom's attitude that a 15 year old trans kid not taking hormones is "not really trans".

(02-28-2017 03:17 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-28-2017 03:06 PM)john01992 Wrote:  I'm sure there are medical conditions where people can't produce hormones themselves and take supplements for that. I really don't see how anti-doping is going to discriminate against trans people. they are incorruptible institutions who are above petty politics and as I said I'm sure they have had to deal with these types of medication before.

The do, and there are guidelines to what is medical usage that is not PEDs abuse and what usage *is* peds abuse.

What I find really troubling here is tom's attitude that a 15 year old trans kid not taking hormones is "not really trans".

Just curious....do you misgender Trans kids? Is he mentally ill? Is he mutilating himself? Is he even a he? Just curious as to whether you think that Trans kids are even Trans. Answer that and I'll address your concern. But if you don't accept Trans people for who they are (plenty here don't - I'll let you answer for yourself), then please spare me your concern for them.

If the kid wished to Transition, and his parents and their doctors think it is a good idea, then its THEIR decision.

And lets not pretend that discrimination and marginalization against Trans persons, ESPECIALLY in educational settings, isn't a real thing.