(02-25-2017 01:00 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:44 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:37 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 10:51 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  And Trans persons are to be exculded from sports....
And I'll bet if a male student has some medical condition requiring testosterone in levels equal to or lower than that naturally occuring in male students...that they'd be allowed to compete with a medical clearance.

Nobody here has said she can not compete with the men. What has been said is that she can not do so while taking what are performance enhancing drugs.

I fully say women and men should not compete against each other in combat sports. It is dangerous and destroys the integrity of the sport. No one should be allowed to compete using PEDs. That is MY stance.

I feel if a woman can compete at the highest level, which is mens sports, then she should be allowed. Quite honestly the number of women who could reach mens championships without the aid of hormone treatments is tiny.

There are plenty of sports in which women can compete on a level playing field with men..and some even better....shooting sports, gymnastics and ice skating and golf for examples. IMO combat sports are clearly different because of the natural physical differences between the sexes. The Joe Rogan podcast mentioned above went to great detail about the bone structure differences between men and women and why they simply should not grapple each other for safety reasons. Even women MMA fighters acknowledge these differences and while they routinely grapple(roll) with males during training it is under a very controlled paradigm to insure safety

You can damn well believe that if women and men can be equal in grappling? We would see it going on in MMA. We don't and the reason is clear. It is dangerous.

Football is dangerous and we still allow it. Its a cool sport. For cool kids.

To tell the Trans kids....you can't play is discriminatory and is done with the purpose of marginalizing them.

And the taxpayers pay to fund these sports and the benefits that come from participation in them. What many of you want is to make life IMPOSSIBLE for Trans persons.

And lets not pretend that those opposing their inclusion aren't also opposed to them EXISTING in public places. Many of y'all can't even use the correct gender when discussing them. Some of y'all use known pejoratives to describe them, even when you have been told, repeatedly that it is a severe pejorative. Some of you use terms like mutilators or freaks to describe them.

In short, no one really cares about safety because dangerous sports are allowed. The friggin' IOC allows Transmen to compete, even under some testosterone treatments. There are weight classes in wrestling. And many of y'all project your EXTREME bias against them in every way possible.

(02-25-2017 02:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  To tell the Trans kids....you can't play is discriminatory and is done with the purpose of marginalizing them.

FFS Tom, nobody has said that. They have said, if she did not juice up on PED's she would be fine.

Quote:And lets not pretend that those opposing their inclusion aren't also opposed to them EXISTING in public places. Many of y'all can't even use the correct gender when discussing them.

I'll not recognize their mental disorder as truth tom. I'd hire them, work with them, and be kind... But I'll not let them own my use of language.

(02-25-2017 04:20 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 02:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  To tell the Trans kids....you can't play is discriminatory and is done with the purpose of marginalizing them.

FFS Tom, nobody has said that. They have said, if she did not juice up on PED's she would be fine.

Quote:And lets not pretend that those opposing their inclusion aren't also opposed to them EXISTING in public places. Many of y'all can't even use the correct gender when discussing them.

I'll not recognize their mental disorder as truth tom. I'd hire them, work with them, and be kind... But I'll not let them own my use of language.

Misgendering, especially deliberately is highly insulting and is the opposite of kind.

Again, telling Trans kids that they can compete, but only if they stop being Trans isn't really allowing Trans kids to compete.

(02-25-2017 01:00 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  There are plenty of sports in which women can compete on a level playing field with men..and some even better....shooting sports, gymnastics and ice skating and golf for examples. IMO combat sports are clearly different because of the natural physical differences between the sexes.

Pretty much anything sport that relies on strength or dexterity is not an even playing field. Females have the advantage in dexterity, males have the advantage in strength.

An example of them not being the same would be that the US Womens Olympic Hockey Team which I believe won gold (so is the best in the world), lost to a male high school hockey team. Source: http://nesn.com/2014/01/u-s-womens-olymp...w-england/

Yes they won against two other high school hockey teams, but we are talking about games between professional female Olympic athletes to regular high school males...

(02-25-2017 04:43 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Misgendering, especially deliberately is highly insulting and is the opposite of kind.

They are misgendering themselves, Tom. I am just stating a fact.

Quote:Again, telling Trans kids that they can compete, but only if they stop being Trans isn't really allowing Trans kids to compete.

They can compete against the biological sex to which they belong, or if they are female they can step up and compete against boys.

Giving young people strong hormones at that age is child abuse. Many level thinking trans people agree.

Honest questions:

- Can a minor (17 yr old and younger) force their parents to allow them to take hormones?

- if a parent refuses their minor child from taking hormones are they legally at risk?

- can you be transgender without manipulating hormones?

- despite my fear of adding another letter to the alphabet....what is a pretransgender child called?

- if Katlyn Jenner wants to be scored like a man in golf is that fair?

- if Katlyn Jenner wants to be Scored like a women in the Decathalon right now is that fair?

- however Katlyn Jenner wants to score does not need to be shoved in my face?

(02-25-2017 01:00 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:44 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:37 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 10:51 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  And Trans persons are to be exculded from sports....
And I'll bet if a male student has some medical condition requiring testosterone in levels equal to or lower than that naturally occuring in male students...that they'd be allowed to compete with a medical clearance.

Nobody here has said she can not compete with the men. What has been said is that she can not do so while taking what are performance enhancing drugs.

I fully say women and men should not compete against each other in combat sports. It is dangerous and destroys the integrity of the sport. No one should be allowed to compete using PEDs. That is MY stance.

I feel if a woman can compete at the highest level, which is mens sports, then she should be allowed. Quite honestly the number of women who could reach mens championships without the aid of hormone treatments is tiny.

There are plenty of sports in which women can compete on a level playing field with men..and some even better....shooting sports, gymnastics and ice skating and golf for examples. IMO combat sports are clearly different because of the natural physical differences between the sexes. The Joe Rogan podcast mentioned above went to great detail about the bone structure differences between men and women and why they simply should not grapple each other for safety reasons. Even women MMA fighters acknowledge these differences and while they routinely grapple(roll) with males during training it is under a very controlled paradigm to insure safety

You can damn well believe that if women and men can be equal in grappling? We would see it going on in MMA. We don't and the reason is clear. It is dangerous.

It's not really the same grappling as MMA. You aren't going for the submission, you're going for points by takedowns, falls. Throws happen, but it doesn't win you a match like in freestyle so they're a waste of energy.

Do you think it would be unsafe for a blind boy (or boy missing limb(s)) to wrestle a boy with none of those issues? It happens everywhere.

It's funny that you mention MMA because one of the biggest disciplines in it is BJJ. That's a sport that makes a point of emphasis out of giving a weaker, smaller opponent the ability to beat someone bigger and stronger. It's the skill that counts and--in my experience at least--it's the same reason a girl can handle her own against boys in scholastic wrestling (not freestyle though).

(02-25-2017 11:37 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 01:00 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:44 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:37 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  Nobody here has said she can not compete with the men. What has been said is that she can not do so while taking what are performance enhancing drugs.

I fully say women and men should not compete against each other in combat sports. It is dangerous and destroys the integrity of the sport. No one should be allowed to compete using PEDs. That is MY stance.

I feel if a woman can compete at the highest level, which is mens sports, then she should be allowed. Quite honestly the number of women who could reach mens championships without the aid of hormone treatments is tiny.

There are plenty of sports in which women can compete on a level playing field with men..and some even better....shooting sports, gymnastics and ice skating and golf for examples. IMO combat sports are clearly different because of the natural physical differences between the sexes. The Joe Rogan podcast mentioned above went to great detail about the bone structure differences between men and women and why they simply should not grapple each other for safety reasons. Even women MMA fighters acknowledge these differences and while they routinely grapple(roll) with males during training it is under a very controlled paradigm to insure safety

You can damn well believe that if women and men can be equal in grappling? We would see it going on in MMA. We don't and the reason is clear. It is dangerous.

It's not really the same grappling as MMA. You aren't going for the submission, you're going for points by takedowns, falls. Throws happen, but it doesn't win you a match like in freestyle so they're a waste of energy.

Do you think it would be unsafe for a blind boy (or boy missing limb(s)) to wrestle a boy with none of those issues? It happens everywhere.

It's funny that you mention MMA because one of the biggest disciplines in it is BJJ. That's a sport that makes a point of emphasis out of giving a weaker, smaller opponent the ability to beat someone bigger and stronger. It's the skill that counts and--in my experience at least--it's the same reason a girl can handle her own against boys in scholastic wrestling (not freestyle though).

Im going to again point out...that this entire topic revolves around 17 year olds..not children...not boys and girls. We are talking about young adults. When I was 17? I weighed about 160 and was dead lifting around 260. Today someone of my size is pushing over 350 with the technology available to them as athletes. We need to keep the age here in perspective.

(02-26-2017 12:25 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 11:37 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 01:00 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:44 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I fully say women and men should not compete against each other in combat sports. It is dangerous and destroys the integrity of the sport. No one should be allowed to compete using PEDs. That is MY stance.

I feel if a woman can compete at the highest level, which is mens sports, then she should be allowed. Quite honestly the number of women who could reach mens championships without the aid of hormone treatments is tiny.

There are plenty of sports in which women can compete on a level playing field with men..and some even better....shooting sports, gymnastics and ice skating and golf for examples. IMO combat sports are clearly different because of the natural physical differences between the sexes. The Joe Rogan podcast mentioned above went to great detail about the bone structure differences between men and women and why they simply should not grapple each other for safety reasons. Even women MMA fighters acknowledge these differences and while they routinely grapple(roll) with males during training it is under a very controlled paradigm to insure safety

You can damn well believe that if women and men can be equal in grappling? We would see it going on in MMA. We don't and the reason is clear. It is dangerous.

It's not really the same grappling as MMA. You aren't going for the submission, you're going for points by takedowns, falls. Throws happen, but it doesn't win you a match like in freestyle so they're a waste of energy.

Do you think it would be unsafe for a blind boy (or boy missing limb(s)) to wrestle a boy with none of those issues? It happens everywhere.

It's funny that you mention MMA because one of the biggest disciplines in it is BJJ. That's a sport that makes a point of emphasis out of giving a weaker, smaller opponent the ability to beat someone bigger and stronger. It's the skill that counts and--in my experience at least--it's the same reason a girl can handle her own against boys in scholastic wrestling (not freestyle though).

Im going to again point out...that this entire topic revolves around 17 year olds..not children...not boys and girls. We are talking about young adults. When I was 17? I weighed about 160 and was dead lifting around 260. Today someone of my size is pushing over 350 with the technology available to them as athletes. We need to keep the age here in perspective.

17 is still considered boys and girls for the purpose of high school sports. We're talking the same here. Also, being strong does not necessarily equal being a good wrestler.

When a 17 year old girl at 105 goes against a 17 year old boy at 105, she'll wrestle him at that level. She may not win, but like I said, it happens everywhere. She stands a fighter's chance if the boy doesn't have the skills and she takes a pragmatic approach. In my day as a 14 or 15 year old (120-ish), I could beat a guy at 17 with 30 pounds on me and a lot of strength if I was more skilled. I think any former wrestler here would tell you that. We've all been against someone just coming off the football field, who thinks wrestling is just grappling.

Remember, there are people out there who can deadlift 0 pounds because they have no legs that get out there and win. They're more disadvantaged than she is.

(02-25-2017 07:03 PM)Dasville Wrote:  Honest questions:

- Can a minor (17 yr old and younger) force their parents to allow them to take hormones?

- if a parent refuses their minor child from taking hormones are they legally at risk?

- can you be transgender without manipulating hormones?

- despite my fear of adding another letter to the alphabet....what is a pretransgender child called?

- if Katlyn Jenner wants to be scored like a man in golf is that fair?

- if Katlyn Jenner wants to be Scored like a women in the Decathalon right now is that fair?

- however Katlyn Jenner wants to score does not need to be shoved in my face?

The Child/Parent question is interesting. If I was to hazard a guess, you've got a mixed bag. Some parents who respect their kids wishes and pay for the treatments, and other parents who choose to have their kid sexually reassigned for one reason or another.

Now, admittedly a girl will have a ton of trouble going against state level wrestlers, but she will hold her own the rest of the season. There was a legally blind 17 year old girl in Raleigh, who was 4-6 near the end of the 2015-2016 season. That's not a fantastic record, but she had way more of a disadvantage than a 17 year old undefeated on PEDs.

She should be getting the mental health care she desperately needs and NOT hormones and body mutilation.

(02-25-2017 02:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 01:00 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:44 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:37 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  Nobody here has said she can not compete with the men. What has been said is that she can not do so while taking what are performance enhancing drugs.

I fully say women and men should not compete against each other in combat sports. It is dangerous and destroys the integrity of the sport. No one should be allowed to compete using PEDs. That is MY stance.

I feel if a woman can compete at the highest level, which is mens sports, then she should be allowed. Quite honestly the number of women who could reach mens championships without the aid of hormone treatments is tiny.

There are plenty of sports in which women can compete on a level playing field with men..and some even better....shooting sports, gymnastics and ice skating and golf for examples. IMO combat sports are clearly different because of the natural physical differences between the sexes. The Joe Rogan podcast mentioned above went to great detail about the bone structure differences between men and women and why they simply should not grapple each other for safety reasons. Even women MMA fighters acknowledge these differences and while they routinely grapple(roll) with males during training it is under a very controlled paradigm to insure safety

You can damn well believe that if women and men can be equal in grappling? We would see it going on in MMA. We don't and the reason is clear. It is dangerous.

Football is dangerous and we still allow it. Its a cool sport. For cool kids.

To tell the Trans kids....you can't play is discriminatory and is done with the purpose of marginalizing them.

And the taxpayers pay to fund these sports and the benefits that come from participation in them. What many of you want is to make life IMPOSSIBLE for Trans persons.

And lets not pretend that those opposing their inclusion aren't also opposed to them EXISTING in public places. Many of y'all can't even use the correct gender when discussing them. Some of y'all use known pejoratives to describe them, even when you have been told, repeatedly that it is a severe pejorative. Some of you use terms like mutilators or freaks to describe them.

In short, no one really cares about safety because dangerous sports are allowed. The friggin' IOC allows Transmen to compete, even under some testosterone treatments. There are weight classes in wrestling. And many of y'all project your EXTREME bias against them in every way possible.

For Tom Title IX should be rewritten. There should be no men's and women's sports. There should be one basketball team, one football team, one gymnastic team etc. LBGT activist want a gender-less society. Lets do it. Rewrite Title IX.

(02-26-2017 09:57 AM)ODU BLUE Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 02:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 01:00 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:44 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I fully say women and men should not compete against each other in combat sports. It is dangerous and destroys the integrity of the sport. No one should be allowed to compete using PEDs. That is MY stance.

I feel if a woman can compete at the highest level, which is mens sports, then she should be allowed. Quite honestly the number of women who could reach mens championships without the aid of hormone treatments is tiny.

There are plenty of sports in which women can compete on a level playing field with men..and some even better....shooting sports, gymnastics and ice skating and golf for examples. IMO combat sports are clearly different because of the natural physical differences between the sexes. The Joe Rogan podcast mentioned above went to great detail about the bone structure differences between men and women and why they simply should not grapple each other for safety reasons. Even women MMA fighters acknowledge these differences and while they routinely grapple(roll) with males during training it is under a very controlled paradigm to insure safety

You can damn well believe that if women and men can be equal in grappling? We would see it going on in MMA. We don't and the reason is clear. It is dangerous.

Football is dangerous and we still allow it. Its a cool sport. For cool kids.

To tell the Trans kids....you can't play is discriminatory and is done with the purpose of marginalizing them.

And the taxpayers pay to fund these sports and the benefits that come from participation in them. What many of you want is to make life IMPOSSIBLE for Trans persons.

And lets not pretend that those opposing their inclusion aren't also opposed to them EXISTING in public places. Many of y'all can't even use the correct gender when discussing them. Some of y'all use known pejoratives to describe them, even when you have been told, repeatedly that it is a severe pejorative. Some of you use terms like mutilators or freaks to describe them.

In short, no one really cares about safety because dangerous sports are allowed. The friggin' IOC allows Transmen to compete, even under some testosterone treatments. There are weight classes in wrestling. And many of y'all project your EXTREME bias against them in every way possible.

For Tom Title IX should be rewritten. There should be no men's and women's sports. There should be one basketball team, one football team, one gymnastic team etc. LBGT activist want a gender-less society. Lets do it. Rewrite Title IX.

That is exactly what the radical LGBT crowd would cheer for...and honestly...most of them have zero desire to compete in sports in the first place...especially the men.

(02-26-2017 09:57 AM)ODU BLUE Wrote:  LBGT activist want a gender-less society.

Well they want it to be genderless except for their quotas that dictate 50/50 between the genders. Except I'm not sure how that'll work out for the 31 genders or so... 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/etc?
How many schools actually have mayonnaise gendered students who would want to compete in basketball. Seems more like they'd insist that if the quota couldn't be enforced the team would be unable to play.

Equality if outcome is all the care about... equality of opportunity doesn't matter to them.

(02-26-2017 10:09 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 09:57 AM)ODU BLUE Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 02:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 01:00 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:44 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  I feel if a woman can compete at the highest level, which is mens sports, then she should be allowed. Quite honestly the number of women who could reach mens championships without the aid of hormone treatments is tiny.

There are plenty of sports in which women can compete on a level playing field with men..and some even better....shooting sports, gymnastics and ice skating and golf for examples. IMO combat sports are clearly different because of the natural physical differences between the sexes. The Joe Rogan podcast mentioned above went to great detail about the bone structure differences between men and women and why they simply should not grapple each other for safety reasons. Even women MMA fighters acknowledge these differences and while they routinely grapple(roll) with males during training it is under a very controlled paradigm to insure safety

You can damn well believe that if women and men can be equal in grappling? We would see it going on in MMA. We don't and the reason is clear. It is dangerous.

Football is dangerous and we still allow it. Its a cool sport. For cool kids.

To tell the Trans kids....you can't play is discriminatory and is done with the purpose of marginalizing them.

And the taxpayers pay to fund these sports and the benefits that come from participation in them. What many of you want is to make life IMPOSSIBLE for Trans persons.

And lets not pretend that those opposing their inclusion aren't also opposed to them EXISTING in public places. Many of y'all can't even use the correct gender when discussing them. Some of y'all use known pejoratives to describe them, even when you have been told, repeatedly that it is a severe pejorative. Some of you use terms like mutilators or freaks to describe them.

In short, no one really cares about safety because dangerous sports are allowed. The friggin' IOC allows Transmen to compete, even under some testosterone treatments. There are weight classes in wrestling. And many of y'all project your EXTREME bias against them in every way possible.

For Tom Title IX should be rewritten. There should be no men's and women's sports. There should be one basketball team, one football team, one gymnastic team etc. LBGT activist want a gender-less society. Lets do it. Rewrite Title IX.

That is exactly what the radical LGBT crowd would cheer for...and honestly...most of them have zero desire to compete in sports in the first place...especially the men.

More stereotyping.

(02-26-2017 10:56 AM)q5sys Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 09:57 AM)ODU BLUE Wrote:  LBGT activist want a gender-less society.

Well they want it to be genderless except for their quotas that dictate 50/50 between the genders. Except I'm not sure how that'll work out for the 31 genders or so... 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/etc?
How many schools actually have mayonnaise gendered students who would want to compete in basketball. Seems more like they'd insist that if the quota couldn't be enforced the team would be unable to play.

Equality if outcome is all the care about... equality of opportunity doesn't matter to them.

You realize that if you set up the rules to bar or dramatically hinder LGBT participation...that isn't equality of opportunity.

(02-26-2017 11:03 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 10:09 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 09:57 AM)ODU BLUE Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 02:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 01:00 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  There are plenty of sports in which women can compete on a level playing field with men..and some even better....shooting sports, gymnastics and ice skating and golf for examples. IMO combat sports are clearly different because of the natural physical differences between the sexes. The Joe Rogan podcast mentioned above went to great detail about the bone structure differences between men and women and why they simply should not grapple each other for safety reasons. Even women MMA fighters acknowledge these differences and while they routinely grapple(roll) with males during training it is under a very controlled paradigm to insure safety

You can damn well believe that if women and men can be equal in grappling? We would see it going on in MMA. We don't and the reason is clear. It is dangerous.

Football is dangerous and we still allow it. Its a cool sport. For cool kids.

To tell the Trans kids....you can't play is discriminatory and is done with the purpose of marginalizing them.

And the taxpayers pay to fund these sports and the benefits that come from participation in them. What many of you want is to make life IMPOSSIBLE for Trans persons.

And lets not pretend that those opposing their inclusion aren't also opposed to them EXISTING in public places. Many of y'all can't even use the correct gender when discussing them. Some of y'all use known pejoratives to describe them, even when you have been told, repeatedly that it is a severe pejorative. Some of you use terms like mutilators or freaks to describe them.

In short, no one really cares about safety because dangerous sports are allowed. The friggin' IOC allows Transmen to compete, even under some testosterone treatments. There are weight classes in wrestling. And many of y'all project your EXTREME bias against them in every way possible.

For Tom Title IX should be rewritten. There should be no men's and women's sports. There should be one basketball team, one football team, one gymnastic team etc. LBGT activist want a gender-less society. Lets do it. Rewrite Title IX.

That is exactly what the radical LGBT crowd would cheer for...and honestly...most of them have zero desire to compete in sports in the first place...especially the men.

More stereotyping.

Hardly...and those that DO want to compete don't need you Tom to protect them. The go about their business like a man...and....you know full well what I am talking about.

(02-26-2017 11:04 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 10:56 AM)q5sys Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 09:57 AM)ODU BLUE Wrote:  LBGT activist want a gender-less society.

Well they want it to be genderless except for their quotas that dictate 50/50 between the genders. Except I'm not sure how that'll work out for the 31 genders or so... 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/etc?
How many schools actually have mayonnaise gendered students who would want to compete in basketball. Seems more like they'd insist that if the quota couldn't be enforced the team would be unable to play.

Equality if outcome is all the care about... equality of opportunity doesn't matter to them.

You realize that if you set up the rules to bar or dramatically hinder LGBT participation...that isn't equality of opportunity.

You do realize that LGB are completely unaffected by this right?