(02-01-2017 05:43 PM)NoDak Wrote:  NDSU could be forced to drop men's golf, but think they will do everything possible to save baseball and wrestling. Baseball has a nice on campus stadium that was donated, and wrestling is in the Big12 now.

Wrestling is low cost and a lot of tradition, plus as you said Big 12. Zero chance.

Baseball doesn't have anything to show for itself. The stadium is the minor league stadium, that happens to be located on campus. It'll be filled with RedHawks fans regardless if NDSU has a baseball team. And it's (relatively) high cost, having to pay for out of state players and a larger recruiting budget.

That would leave SDSU as the only Dak4 to sponsor baseball.

(02-01-2017 05:43 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Could see them drop fb before Mankato would, move to DI, and start men's lax instead. Dropping fb would almost save enough money for a DI move.

I'd love to have Duluth in the Summit, and another NCHC rival for Omaha, Denver, and UND.

They'd be like how UW Green Bay is to Madison, to the U. Should be fine.

(02-01-2017 05:45 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The Summit needs both to maintain a DI autobid. The other option is to sponsor fb instead, and the third men's team sport requirement goes away.

Summit would be down to five. Either find another affiliate or ... not really the Dakota schools' problem!

(02-01-2017 06:14 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  Are you 100% sure you're reading that bylaw correctly? I used to think the same, but then I reread the bylaw a couple months back and realized it didn't say exactly what I thought it did.

Here's the relevant portion:

Quote:18.5.3 Men’s Basketball Eligibility Requirements. For automatic qualification in the sport of men’s basketball in Division I, a conference shall meet the following additional requirements: Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/91)
(a) It shall determine a conference champion in at least six men’s sports [at least two of which must be team sports as set forth in Bylaw 31.3.4.1-(a)]; and in each of these six sports, at least six of the conference’s member institutions shall sponsor the sport on the varsity intercollegiate level; and

Now, you are taking the bylaw to mean a conference must determine a champion in two men's team sports in addition to men's basketball, but does it actually say that? I don't think it does. They may have meant for it to say that, but they miswrote it if that's what they intended. As written, a conference needs MBB and one additional men's team sport, not two. In the case of the Summit, either baseball or men's soccer will do the job.

Oh ... I thought he was talking about the Summit's baseball autobid.


I read it exactly the same way you do: even if it dropped sponsorship of baseball entirely, the Summit would continue to get a men's bball auto-bid because it sponsors men's championships in at least six sports and two of those are team sports with at least six conf teams sponsoring (bball and soccer).

(02-01-2017 06:21 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-01-2017 06:14 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  Are you 100% sure you're reading that bylaw correctly? I used to think the same, but then I reread the bylaw a couple months back and realized it didn't say exactly what I thought it did.

Here's the relevant portion:

Quote:18.5.3 Men’s Basketball Eligibility Requirements. For automatic qualification in the sport of men’s basketball in Division I, a conference shall meet the following additional requirements: Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/91)
(a) It shall determine a conference champion in at least six men’s sports [at least two of which must be team sports as set forth in Bylaw 31.3.4.1-(a)]; and in each of these six sports, at least six of the conference’s member institutions shall sponsor the sport on the varsity intercollegiate level; and

Now, you are taking the bylaw to mean a conference must determine a champion in two men's team sports in addition to men's basketball, but does it actually say that? I don't think it does. They may have meant for it to say that, but they miswrote it if that's what they intended. As written, a conference needs MBB and one additional men's team sport, not two. In the case of the Summit, either baseball or men's soccer will do the job.

Oh ... I thought he was talking about the Summit's baseball autobid.


I read it exactly the same way you do: even if it dropped sponsorship of baseball entirely, the Summit would continue to get a men's bball auto-bid because it sponsors men's championships in at least six sports and two of those are team sports with at least six conf teams sponsoring (bball and soccer).

He was talking about both. He's thinking the MBB autobid is dependent on both the baseball and soccer autobids. I'm not sure if he's right or wrong. The DI Manual is just unclear enough to create a sliver of doubt.

Here's the bylaw he's going by:

Quote:20.02.5.1 Minimum Number of Members. A multisport conference shall be composed of at least seven active Division I members. The member conference shall include at least seven active Division I members that sponsor both men’s and women’s basketball. (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
20.02.5.2 Sports Sponsorship. A multisport conference shall satisfy the following requirements: (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
(a) The conference shall sponsor a minimum of 12 Division I sports;
(b) The conference shall sponsor a minimum of six men’s sports, one of which shall be men’s basketball. In addition to men’s basketball, the conference shall sponsor football or two other men’s team sports. A minimum of seven members shall sponsor men’s basketball. A minimum of six members shall sponsor five other sports, including football or two additional men’s team sports; and
© The conference shall sponsor a minimum of six women’s sports, one of which shall be women’s basketball. In addition to women’s basketball, the conference shall sponsor two other women’s team sports. A minimum of seven members shall sponsor women’s basketball. A minimum of six members shall sponsor five other sports, including two additional women’s team sports (or a minimum of five members for an emerging sport for women).

Now there it clearly says a multisport conference needs to sponsor MBB+FB or MBB+2 other team sports. The question I have is in regards to the term 'sponsor'. Does that term require the conference to have an autobid in that sport, or is it enough to just conduct conference competition?

It is three men's team sports for non-football conferences, one of which must be basketball. The WAC added men's soccer after it dropped football, and even emphasized in its press releases it was to meet Division I requirements.

If the Summit sponsored football, everyone in the conference could drop baseball and soccer and it would have no bearing on the automatic bid as long as the members still met Division I requirements for number of sports sponsored. You wonder if Omaha would have dropped football had the Summit been in a position to sponsor it a few years ago.

With that said, adding Northern Colorado to the Summit would cover both the football and baseball angles, and even leave a viable MVFC (which can consolidate with the MVC if Wichita State adds the sport, or Drake adds scholarships)

I've said for years that the Slummit needed baseball and men's soccer sponsorship to survive as a conference. Of course NDSU fans blasted me as an idiot because they can't seem to read.

If the Slummit offered football, it wouldn't have any worries.

Every non football conference has three men's team sports. The Big Sky and others only have two.

Honestly thought NDSU would have rented US Bank stadium along with other regional baseball teams and had a big invitational tournament in Feb or March. That was done in MetroDome days, even at the DII level. NDSU plays there as a visitor to Minny for one game.

(02-01-2017 06:50 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  

(02-01-2017 06:21 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-01-2017 06:14 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  Are you 100% sure you're reading that bylaw correctly? I used to think the same, but then I reread the bylaw a couple months back and realized it didn't say exactly what I thought it did.

Here's the relevant portion:

Quote:18.5.3 Men’s Basketball Eligibility Requirements. For automatic qualification in the sport of men’s basketball in Division I, a conference shall meet the following additional requirements: Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/91)
(a) It shall determine a conference champion in at least six men’s sports [at least two of which must be team sports as set forth in Bylaw 31.3.4.1-(a)]; and in each of these six sports, at least six of the conference’s member institutions shall sponsor the sport on the varsity intercollegiate level; and

Now, you are taking the bylaw to mean a conference must determine a champion in two men's team sports in addition to men's basketball, but does it actually say that? I don't think it does. They may have meant for it to say that, but they miswrote it if that's what they intended. As written, a conference needs MBB and one additional men's team sport, not two. In the case of the Summit, either baseball or men's soccer will do the job.

Oh ... I thought he was talking about the Summit's baseball autobid.


I read it exactly the same way you do: even if it dropped sponsorship of baseball entirely, the Summit would continue to get a men's bball auto-bid because it sponsors men's championships in at least six sports and two of those are team sports with at least six conf teams sponsoring (bball and soccer).

He was talking about both. He's thinking the MBB autobid is dependent on both the baseball and soccer autobids. I'm not sure if he's right or wrong. The DI Manual is just unclear enough to create a sliver of doubt.

Here's the bylaw he's going by:

Quote:20.02.5.1 Minimum Number of Members. A multisport conference shall be composed of at least seven active Division I members. The member conference shall include at least seven active Division I members that sponsor both men’s and women’s basketball. (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
20.02.5.2 Sports Sponsorship. A multisport conference shall satisfy the following requirements: (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
(a) The conference shall sponsor a minimum of 12 Division I sports;
(b) The conference shall sponsor a minimum of six men’s sports, one of which shall be men’s basketball. In addition to men’s basketball, the conference shall sponsor football or two other men’s team sports. A minimum of seven members shall sponsor men’s basketball. A minimum of six members shall sponsor five other sports, including football or two additional men’s team sports; and
© The conference shall sponsor a minimum of six women’s sports, one of which shall be women’s basketball. In addition to women’s basketball, the conference shall sponsor two other women’s team sports. A minimum of seven members shall sponsor women’s basketball. A minimum of six members shall sponsor five other sports, including two additional women’s team sports (or a minimum of five members for an emerging sport for women).

Now there it clearly says a multisport conference needs to sponsor MBB+FB or MBB+2 other team sports. The question I have is in regards to the term 'sponsor'. Does that term require the conference to have an autobid in that sport, or is it enough to just conduct conference competition?

All other non fb conferences sponsor two men's sports other than basketball and all qualify as autobids. When the Slummit was down to five teams for two years, their grace period was up. If they hadn't gotten ORU back, it would have lost its ticket to the dance. Otherwise, USD may have been forced to field an intramural team as varsity, but that conference was in dire straits without ORU.

Men's volleyball is the cheapest team sport to add, as it only allows a few schollies and uses existing facilities.

What are the odds the Horizon steals the Indiana twins, and the Summit replies by trying to coax the Montana twins?

(02-01-2017 08:22 PM)shizzle787 Wrote:  What are the odds the Horizon steals the Indiana twins, and the Summit replies by trying to coax the Montana twins?

Zero. Indiana-Purdue-U Pick Em are not leaving the Summit, because no one else wants them.

The Montana twins won't be headed to the Summit. Montana needs a truly western conference, in particular California, for recruiting.

(02-01-2017 06:50 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  Now there it clearly says a multisport conference needs to sponsor MBB+FB or MBB+2 other team sports. The question I have is in regards to the term 'sponsor'. Does that term require the conference to have an autobid in that sport, or is it enough to just conduct conference competition?

Unfortunately, to my reading, the rule explicitly requires that at least six members of the conference have to sponsor those +2 team sports. So even if the Summit found an affiliate for baseball, or even if it just kept sponsoring the sport at five teams with an NCAA waiver .... per the letter of the law, it appears the conference would not meet the specific requirements to be considered a multisport conference.

The question is ... what does that even mean??

The other bylaw specific to men's basketball, the one you referenced before, is more ambiguous on if MBB can be included in the two team sports.


I feel like the Summit would at least have a case to argue with the NCAA, if nothing more to clarify what it really wants.

The problem would most likely be -- though I haven't checked if this is actually true for every DI-AAA (non-fb) multisport conference --- that all the other non-fb conferences are indeed sponsoring MBB + 2 team sports, whether those be soccer and baseball, or something else.

(02-01-2017 07:03 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  You wonder if Omaha would have dropped football had the Summit been in a position to sponsor it a few years ago.

Though this seems to be message board lore more than official, the word is that Omaha was required to drop football to move to DI by Lincoln.

(02-01-2017 07:03 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  With that said, adding Northern Colorado to the Summit would cover both the football and baseball angles, and even leave a viable MVFC (which can consolidate with the MVC if Wichita State adds the sport, or Drake adds scholarships)

Well, Summit wouldn't need baseball if it officially sponsored football. But point taken.

Not sure how that would leave a viable MVFC though, because I would see Missouri St as likely leaving. That only leaves UNI, SIU, IL St, IN St, and Youngstown. They'd have to add someone else to maintain the FCS autobid. I guess Drake would be asked to step up, even if still not providing any scholarships.

(02-01-2017 07:35 PM)NoDak Wrote:  If they hadn't gotten ORU back, it would have lost its ticket to the dance.

This isn't a fact. See my next post, for one, and for two, the Summit wouldn't have just rolled over and died. It would've worked with the NCAA, which very likely would've given it a waiver.

(02-01-2017 07:35 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Men's volleyball is the cheapest team sport to add, as it only allows a few schollies and uses existing facilities.

That's actually a really great idea ... if you could get six teams to sponsor men's vball. Of course, one problem is that the sport is just not played by boys in the upper midwest. Nothing like how girls play it. They'd have to get players from elsewhere.

(02-01-2017 08:47 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Zero. Indiana-Purdue-U Pick Em are not leaving the Summit, because no one else wants them.

MVC loses Wichita St to the AAC, then Missouri St says "we're done" and goes to the Sun Belt. MVC takes Valpo and maybe one other from the Horizon.

Bang. Horizon fills the hole in its footprint (its league office is in Indy) with the IP's.

OK for all you NCAA rule savants, riddle me this: how is the MVC surviving, then??????

Check it out: the MVC only has two men's team sports where at least six MVC members sponsor the sport, basketball and baseball. Men's soccer is only sponsored by five MVC teams, with two affiliates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_V..._by_school


The MVFC is a separate conference and not part of the MVC, so the MVC can't use the exception for sponsoring football.


By the letter of the law, the MVC is in violation of the requirements of a DI multisport conference.



So how are they doing it?????

Maybe the fact of it just is: the NCAA hasn't noticed or realized, or the NCAA doesn't care that the MVC is using two affiliates to get men's soccer up to an autobid, sponsored sport.


So, if true, then seems the Summit could do the same for baseball, if NDSU dropped it. (get an affiliate, to get back up to six)

(02-02-2017 12:17 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Maybe the fact of it just is: the NCAA hasn't noticed or realized, or the NCAA doesn't care that the MVC is using two affiliates to get men's soccer up to an autobid, sponsored sport.


So, if true, then seems the Summit could do the same for baseball, if NDSU dropped it. (get an affiliate, to get back up to six)

The affiliates count as members of that conference for that sport. Even if they are not a full member (basketball playing), the affiliates are consider part of the MVC for the sport of soccer.
Yes, the Summit could add a baseball affiliate to keep in compliance.

I would agree with such an interpretation, but then I just wonder why it was so explicitly spelled out to seem the opposite?

Quote:(b) The conference shall sponsor a minimum of six men’s sports, one of which shall be men’s basketball. In addition to men’s basketball, the conference shall sponsor football or two other men’s team sports. A minimum of seven members shall sponsor men’s basketball. A minimum of six members shall sponsor five other sports, including football or two additional men’s team sports

If the rule is talking about the requirements of a multisport conference, then to me -- for some reason -- it seems intuitive that when they're talking about "members", they're referring to full members of the multisport conference. In other words, affiliates wouldn't count.



But if true, then how to explain the MVC's current situation??

Well in any case, it seems like the Summit is safe if NDSU drops baseball.

It can either argue that it should get the same waiver as the MVC is getting for only having five of its full members sponsor men's soccer, or it can get a clarification that indeed an affiliate baseball member is just as good in terms of meeting the requirement of six members sponsoring baseball.

(02-02-2017 12:13 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  OK for all you NCAA rule savants, riddle me this: how is the MVC surviving, then??????

Check it out: the MVC only has two men's team sports where at least six MVC members sponsor the sport, basketball and baseball. Men's soccer is only sponsored by five MVC teams, with two affiliates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_V..._by_school


The MVFC is a separate conference and not part of the MVC, so the MVC can't use the exception for sponsoring football.


By the letter of the law, the MVC is in violation of the requirements of a DI multisport conference.



So how are they doing it?????

The third men's team sport can have an affiliate. The other two must be full members.

Summit men's soccer used to have two affiliates: ORU and Eastern Illinois. That means baseball was their second team sport that must have six members. Now it's OK to use men's soccer because ORU came back to give it six full time teams.

The MVC has an easy solution if it falls below the team sport requirements: add NDSU and / or SDSU and incorporate the MVFC into the MVC which would also subtract two baseball teams from the Slummit.

That is one of the reasons that I think Slummit membership is short sighted for UND.

In Canada, men's volleyball is rather big and in Illinois, so that a viable option for us.

(02-02-2017 01:00 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The third men's team sport can have an affiliate. The other two must be full members.

Summit men's soccer used to have two affiliates: ORU and Eastern Illinois. That means baseball was their second team sport that must have six members. Now it's OK to use men's soccer because ORU came back to give it six full time teams.

Even if you're not making that "rule" out of thin air (I certainly don't see that encoded into any bylaws), obviously like you say it would indeed alleviate any concerns about baseball membership having impacts beyond baseball.

(02-02-2017 01:00 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The MVC has an easy solution if it falls below the team sport requirements: add NDSU and / or SDSU and incorporate the MVFC into the MVC which would also subtract two baseball teams from the Summit.

Easy to say on paper, but impossible in reality.

NDSU and SDSU don't possess the large arenas, men's bball attendance, and market (proximity) that the MVC would look for in a new member. Valpo and/or UIC would be up their alley .... Dakotas aren't even close.

(02-02-2017 01:00 PM)NoDak Wrote:  In Canada, men's volleyball is rather big and in Illinois, so that a viable option for us.

That is interesting.

I love volleyball, and really wish the sport would take off for boys at the youth and high school level, and men at the college level.

But, in the same vein as saying that NDSU and UND should not be sponsoring varsity golf, tennis, and swimming teams, so too is probably true regarding men's volleyball. Until/unless the day comes where boys volleyball is a mainstay participation sport across the state.

(02-02-2017 04:01 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-02-2017 01:00 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The third men's team sport can have an affiliate. The other two must be full members.

Summit men's soccer used to have two affiliates: ORU and Eastern Illinois. That means baseball was their second team sport that must have six members. Now it's OK to use men's soccer because ORU came back to give it six full time teams.

Even if you're not making that "rule" out of thin air (I certainly don't see that encoded into any bylaws), obviously like you say it would indeed alleviate any concerns about baseball membership having impacts beyond baseball.

(02-02-2017 01:00 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The MVC has an easy solution if it falls below the team sport requirements: add NDSU and / or SDSU and incorporate the MVFC into the MVC which would also subtract two baseball teams from the Summit.

Easy to say on paper, but impossible in reality.

NDSU and SDSU don't possess the large arenas, men's bball attendance, and market (proximity) that the MVC would look for in a new member. Valpo and/or UIC would be up their alley .... Dakotas aren't even close.

(02-02-2017 01:00 PM)NoDak Wrote:  In Canada, men's volleyball is rather big and in Illinois, so that a viable option for us.

That is interesting.

I love volleyball, and really wish the sport would take off for boys at the youth and high school level, and men at the college level.

But, in the same vein as saying that NDSU and UND should not be sponsoring varsity golf, tennis, and swimming teams, so too is probably true regarding men's volleyball. Until/unless the day comes where boys volleyball is a mainstay participation sport across the state.

Swimming and Volleyball are indoor sports, so would seem to be good fits. Especially volleyball, which fits into existing spaces, and requires little equipment.

Right ... beyond the title IX "costs", the costs of men's volleyball at really any school that already has women's volleyball would be relatively minimal.

But there aren't a ton of costs with baseball either, especially since you can use metal bats in college. So I don't see much cost savings going from baseball to men's volleyball.


Using the 2014-15 data provided by the EIA database, NDSU's total athletic dept expenses were $22.3M. All men's sports other than football and basketball, had combined total expenses of $2.1M. Adding in football and basketball bring the men's total expenses to $8.1M, for that fiscal year. For women's total, it was $4.6M. And then all expenses not allocated by gender were $9.6M.

So if the school is going to ask the AD to cut 10% from the budget, that's probably around $2.3M. Tough to get there just by cutting men's golf and baseball. But those might have to be part of larger cuts ... guess we'll see.

MplsBison:

If you just study for once the NCAA regs, you would not have nearly the posts and tossed insults to others.

A number of excellent swimmers have come from N Dakota, including Katie Ledecky's parents. They may not be big in numbers, but long on desire and skill. UND has an excellent 50 m pool on campus. What is a joke is using a 25m pool at the DI level like SDSU.