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Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
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k2tigers Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
(10-18-2016 12:58 PM)Claw Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 12:20 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 11:35 AM)Claw Wrote:  I think you all miss the point. Memphis lost its NFL bid in the 60's. The owners that decided against us then never changed their minds. We were batting with two strikes from then forward. The NFL owners were never voting to come here.

Never heard that story.

I've heard about the 70s when we lost out to Seattle and Tampa; when the Liberty Bowl was new, Memphis was booming (before FedEx!), and we gave a lease to the WFL instead of waiting for the NFL.
I
So are you saying that we were in the running with Dallas and Minnesota? Because that was the expansion before the 70s outside of merging with the AFL. Forgot about ATL and NOLA.

Our proposal was better in all ways than Jacksonville except for the most important one: a new stadium. How can owners tell cities to build a new stadium when they put a team in crappy LBS?

This is my opinion with the benefit of hindsight and old age.

I went to Liberty Bowl stadium with my dad as a little kid in the 60's to see an NFL exhibition game. Everyone there was certain the NFL was coming, and there were big folks there from all over the country.

I think Memphis was passed over for the wrong reasons, but once you are dismissed I think it is almost impossible to get another date. It is just the way people are.

April 4, 1968
10-18-2016 01:51 PM
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fsquid Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
(10-18-2016 01:51 PM)k2tigers Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 12:58 PM)Claw Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 12:20 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 11:35 AM)Claw Wrote:  I think you all miss the point. Memphis lost its NFL bid in the 60's. The owners that decided against us then never changed their minds. We were batting with two strikes from then forward. The NFL owners were never voting to come here.

Never heard that story.

I've heard about the 70s when we lost out to Seattle and Tampa; when the Liberty Bowl was new, Memphis was booming (before FedEx!), and we gave a lease to the WFL instead of waiting for the NFL.
I
So are you saying that we were in the running with Dallas and Minnesota? Because that was the expansion before the 70s outside of merging with the AFL. Forgot about ATL and NOLA.

Our proposal was better in all ways than Jacksonville except for the most important one: a new stadium. How can owners tell cities to build a new stadium when they put a team in crappy LBS?

This is my opinion with the benefit of hindsight and old age.

I went to Liberty Bowl stadium with my dad as a little kid in the 60's to see an NFL exhibition game. Everyone there was certain the NFL was coming, and there were big folks there from all over the country.

I think Memphis was passed over for the wrong reasons, but once you are dismissed I think it is almost impossible to get another date. It is just the way people are.

April 4, 1968

.........shots rang out in the Memphis sky
10-18-2016 01:55 PM
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Latilleon Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
(10-18-2016 12:58 PM)Claw Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 12:20 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 11:35 AM)Claw Wrote:  I think you all miss the point. Memphis lost its NFL bid in the 60's. The owners that decided against us then never changed their minds. We were batting with two strikes from then forward. The NFL owners were never voting to come here.

Never heard that story.

I've heard about the 70s when we lost out to Seattle and Tampa; when the Liberty Bowl was new, Memphis was booming (before FedEx!), and we gave a lease to the WFL instead of waiting for the NFL.

So are you saying that we were in the running with Dallas and Minnesota? Because that was the expansion before the 70s outside of merging with the AFL. Forgot about ATL and NOLA.

Our proposal was better in all ways than Jacksonville except for the most important one: a new stadium. How can owners tell cities to build a new stadium when they put a team in crappy LBS?

This is my opinion with the benefit of hindsight and old age.

I went to Liberty Bowl stadium with my dad as a little kid in the 60's to see an NFL exhibition game. Everyone there was certain the NFL was coming, and there were big folks there from all over the country.

I think Memphis was passed over for the wrong reasons, but once you are dismissed I think it is almost impossible to get another date. It is just the way people are.

The NFL doesn't hold grudges; they hold profits. If they held grudges, Jerry Jones would be held with the same contempt as Al Davis was.

If we had been willing to build a modern stadium in 1993-95, we would have gotten an expansion franchise.
10-18-2016 03:32 PM
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airric2255 Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
(10-18-2016 03:32 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 12:58 PM)Claw Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 12:20 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 11:35 AM)Claw Wrote:  I think you all miss the point. Memphis lost its NFL bid in the 60's. The owners that decided against us then never changed their minds. We were batting with two strikes from then forward. The NFL owners were never voting to come here.

Never heard that story.

I've heard about the 70s when we lost out to Seattle and Tampa; when the Liberty Bowl was new, Memphis was booming (before FedEx!), and we gave a lease to the WFL instead of waiting for the NFL.

So are you saying that we were in the running with Dallas and Minnesota? Because that was the expansion before the 70s outside of merging with the AFL. Forgot about ATL and NOLA.

Our proposal was better in all ways than Jacksonville except for the most important one: a new stadium. How can owners tell cities to build a new stadium when they put a team in crappy LBS?

This is my opinion with the benefit of hindsight and old age.

I went to Liberty Bowl stadium with my dad as a little kid in the 60's to see an NFL exhibition game. Everyone there was certain the NFL was coming, and there were big folks there from all over the country.

I think Memphis was passed over for the wrong reasons, but once you are dismissed I think it is almost impossible to get another date. It is just the way people are.

The NFL doesn't hold grudges; they hold profits. If they held grudges, Jerry Jones would be held with the same contempt as Al Davis was.

If we had been willing to build a modern stadium in 1993-95, we would have gotten an expansion franchise.

^^^THIS^^^
10-18-2016 03:45 PM
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Claw Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
(10-18-2016 03:45 PM)airric2255 Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 03:32 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 12:58 PM)Claw Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 12:20 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 11:35 AM)Claw Wrote:  I think you all miss the point. Memphis lost its NFL bid in the 60's. The owners that decided against us then never changed their minds. We were batting with two strikes from then forward. The NFL owners were never voting to come here.

Never heard that story.

I've heard about the 70s when we lost out to Seattle and Tampa; when the Liberty Bowl was new, Memphis was booming (before FedEx!), and we gave a lease to the WFL instead of waiting for the NFL.

So are you saying that we were in the running with Dallas and Minnesota? Because that was the expansion before the 70s outside of merging with the AFL. Forgot about ATL and NOLA.

Our proposal was better in all ways than Jacksonville except for the most important one: a new stadium. How can owners tell cities to build a new stadium when they put a team in crappy LBS?

This is my opinion with the benefit of hindsight and old age.

I went to Liberty Bowl stadium with my dad as a little kid in the 60's to see an NFL exhibition game. Everyone there was certain the NFL was coming, and there were big folks there from all over the country.

I think Memphis was passed over for the wrong reasons, but once you are dismissed I think it is almost impossible to get another date. It is just the way people are.

The NFL doesn't hold grudges; they hold profits. If they held grudges, Jerry Jones would be held with the same contempt as Al Davis was.

If we had been willing to build a modern stadium in 1993-95, we would have gotten an expansion franchise.

^^^THIS^^^

I believed that for a long time. I don't anymore.

Why? The Titans. The NFL went to Nashville with NO stadium. If they had wanted to come to Memphis they would have said do this and you are in. They didn't do that because they didn't WANT to come to Memphis.

I realize that is a bitter pill to swallow, but I think it is closer to reality. Fred Smith and all the city leaders you can muster can put together great packages for the NFL or the Big XII, but if they don't want to associate with you, the offers don't matter. That's the reality we don't want to face, but as time passes, I am more and more certain it is the real story.
10-18-2016 09:36 PM
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Latilleon Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
(10-18-2016 09:36 PM)Claw Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 03:45 PM)airric2255 Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 03:32 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 12:58 PM)Claw Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 12:20 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  Never heard that story.

I've heard about the 70s when we lost out to Seattle and Tampa; when the Liberty Bowl was new, Memphis was booming (before FedEx!), and we gave a lease to the WFL instead of waiting for the NFL.

So are you saying that we were in the running with Dallas and Minnesota? Because that was the expansion before the 70s outside of merging with the AFL. Forgot about ATL and NOLA.

Our proposal was better in all ways than Jacksonville except for the most important one: a new stadium. How can owners tell cities to build a new stadium when they put a team in crappy LBS?

This is my opinion with the benefit of hindsight and old age.

I went to Liberty Bowl stadium with my dad as a little kid in the 60's to see an NFL exhibition game. Everyone there was certain the NFL was coming, and there were big folks there from all over the country.

I think Memphis was passed over for the wrong reasons, but once you are dismissed I think it is almost impossible to get another date. It is just the way people are.

The NFL doesn't hold grudges; they hold profits. If they held grudges, Jerry Jones would be held with the same contempt as Al Davis was.

If we had been willing to build a modern stadium in 1993-95, we would have gotten an expansion franchise.

^^^THIS^^^

I believed that for a long time. I don't anymore.

Why? The Titans. The NFL went to Nashville with NO stadium. If they had wanted to come to Memphis they would have said do this and you are in. They didn't do that because they didn't WANT to come to Memphis.

I realize that is a bitter pill to swallow, but I think it is closer to reality. Fred Smith and all the city leaders you can muster can put together great packages for the NFL or the Big XII, but if they don't want to associate with you, the offers don't matter. That's the reality we don't want to face, but as time passes, I am more and more certain it is the real story.

That was Bud Adams' choice. After the NFL expansion chase didn't go our way, we made no attempts to obtain a major league team. Nashville was aggressive about being major league. That's what got Adams attention.

I don't think anyone would have thought in 1995 Memphis would get an MLB or NBA team so our dreams were dashed when Charlotte and Jacksonville were chosen.

Little did the public know that a group of business people were working on getting the Charlotte Hornets. But the icing on the cake is when the Grizzlies announced they were looking to relocate. The owner, Michael Heisley, was not considering Memphis. Then NBA commissioner David Stern steered Heisley our way. Memphis is Hoops City after all. Memphis always had great NBA ratings and the Tigers show we support basketball. Plus Stern wanted to tap into that FedEx sports advertising money. So if our ego was bruised over the NFL, we were redeemed by the NBA.

The NFL is a better league to have. Easier to support and higher visibility. For me, basketball is my favorite sport and I always preferred an NBA team to the NFL.

The fact is, we weren't as proactive about getting the NFL as we were about the NBA. We did what the NFL told us to do versus telling the NFL what we could do for them. Yeah we sold out preseason games and reach season ticket pledge goals, but we didn't offer a shiny new toy other than in the early 70s. Jacksonville's bid literally fell apart and they removed themselves from consideration and the NFL told them to get back in. All the while we were selling the Liberty Bowl. We had too many smart people involved to miss the fact we were the only finalist without a new (or completely overhauled) stadium. But with the NBA, we kept our mouths closed and handled our business behind closed doors. The public had no idea we were working towards getting the Hornets to relocate. We put together a plan and we didn't waver when it was obvious the Pyramid couldn't be renovated to the level we needed for the NBA.

In hindsight, as an NFL market, we'd probably be somewhere between Jacksonville and Nashville. It would depend on the on-the-field performance. But we know what we can do with the NBA. We have a whole lot more games to get excited about. We have a lot more people to potentially have go to 41 NBA games versus 8 NFL games. We have an arena that gets a lot more use than an NFL stadium to get. So instead of being down about the NFL, things fell into place for us.
(This post was last modified: 10-19-2016 05:38 AM by Latilleon.)
10-19-2016 05:36 AM
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Claw Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
(10-19-2016 05:36 AM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 09:36 PM)Claw Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 03:45 PM)airric2255 Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 03:32 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-18-2016 12:58 PM)Claw Wrote:  This is my opinion with the benefit of hindsight and old age.

I went to Liberty Bowl stadium with my dad as a little kid in the 60's to see an NFL exhibition game. Everyone there was certain the NFL was coming, and there were big folks there from all over the country.

I think Memphis was passed over for the wrong reasons, but once you are dismissed I think it is almost impossible to get another date. It is just the way people are.

The NFL doesn't hold grudges; they hold profits. If they held grudges, Jerry Jones would be held with the same contempt as Al Davis was.

If we had been willing to build a modern stadium in 1993-95, we would have gotten an expansion franchise.

^^^THIS^^^

I believed that for a long time. I don't anymore.

Why? The Titans. The NFL went to Nashville with NO stadium. If they had wanted to come to Memphis they would have said do this and you are in. They didn't do that because they didn't WANT to come to Memphis.

I realize that is a bitter pill to swallow, but I think it is closer to reality. Fred Smith and all the city leaders you can muster can put together great packages for the NFL or the Big XII, but if they don't want to associate with you, the offers don't matter. That's the reality we don't want to face, but as time passes, I am more and more certain it is the real story.

That was Bud Adams' choice. After the NFL expansion chase didn't go our way, we made no attempts to obtain a major league team. Nashville was aggressive about being major league. That's what got Adams attention.

I don't think anyone would have thought in 1995 Memphis would get an MLB or NBA team so our dreams were dashed when Charlotte and Jacksonville were chosen.

Little did the public know that a group of business people were working on getting the Charlotte Hornets. But the icing on the cake is when the Grizzlies announced they were looking to relocate. The owner, Michael Heisley, was not considering Memphis. Then NBA commissioner David Stern steered Heisley our way. Memphis is Hoops City after all. Memphis always had great NBA ratings and the Tigers show we support basketball. Plus Stern wanted to tap into that FedEx sports advertising money. So if our ego was bruised over the NFL, we were redeemed by the NBA.

The NFL is a better league to have. Easier to support and higher visibility. For me, basketball is my favorite sport and I always preferred an NBA team to the NFL.

The fact is, we weren't as proactive about getting the NFL as we were about the NBA. We did what the NFL told us to do versus telling the NFL what we could do for them. Yeah we sold out preseason games and reach season ticket pledge goals, but we didn't offer a shiny new toy other than in the early 70s. Jacksonville's bid literally fell apart and they removed themselves from consideration and the NFL told them to get back in. All the while we were selling the Liberty Bowl. We had too many smart people involved to miss the fact we were the only finalist without a new (or completely overhauled) stadium. But with the NBA, we kept our mouths closed and handled our business behind closed doors. The public had no idea we were working towards getting the Hornets to relocate. We put together a plan and we didn't waver when it was obvious the Pyramid couldn't be renovated to the level we needed for the NBA.

In hindsight, as an NFL market, we'd probably be somewhere between Jacksonville and Nashville. It would depend on the on-the-field performance. But we know what we can do with the NBA. We have a whole lot more games to get excited about. We have a lot more people to potentially have go to 41 NBA games versus 8 NFL games. We have an arena that gets a lot more use than an NFL stadium to get. So instead of being down about the NFL, things fell into place for us.

I don't disagree with any of that.

There are two key statements in your post.

The NFL told Jacksonville to get back in. Why? Because they wanted Jacksonville.

The NBA commissioner steered Heisley our way. Why? Because they wanted Memphis.

Yes, you have to put the ownership group, the money, and the facilities together to be considered, but these organizations are prom queens. They only date who they please. If they want you, it's done. If they don't, your chances are almost nil to get out of the friend zone.
10-19-2016 08:18 AM
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Latilleon Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
Claw Wrote:There are two key statements in your post.

The NFL told Jacksonville to get back in. Why? Because they wanted Jacksonville.

The NBA commissioner steered Heisley our way. Why? Because they wanted Memphis.

Yes, you have to put the ownership group, the money, and the facilities together to be considered, but these organizations are prom queens. They only date who they please. If they want you, it's done. If they don't, your chances are almost nil to get out of the friend zone.

Jacksonville had its champions, Bud Adams being front and center; but if we were willing to put $150 - 250 million into a stadium, everything else about our bid was better.

We had a richer ownership group (only issue is possible animosity with Billy Dunavant over the USFL). Memphis was bigger than Jacksonville then and a larger TV market. Further from an NFL team. At the time, closest were Dallas, NOLA, ATL, and Indy; all 400 miles away. Higher per capita income. More of a corporate community.

So if we had money for a stadium then, hey would have let Jacksonville walk.
10-19-2016 09:19 AM
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Brother Bluto Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
The NFL didn't want Memphis because of Billy Dunavant

FACT
10-19-2016 12:10 PM
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Latilleon Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
(10-19-2016 12:10 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  The NFL didn't want Memphis because of Billy Dunavant

FACT

I've been told that. But was Billy Dunavant really the ringleader behind the USFL lawsuit?

If Fred Smith hadn't dropped out but we weren't building a new stadium, wouldn't we have still been rejected?
10-19-2016 12:39 PM
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Brother Bluto Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
(10-19-2016 12:39 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 12:10 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  The NFL didn't want Memphis because of Billy Dunavant

FACT

I've been told that. But was Billy Dunavant really the ringleader behind the USFL lawsuit?

If Fred Smith hadn't dropped out but we weren't building a new stadium, wouldn't we have still been rejected?

Well Steve Erhardt, his right hand man has the $3 check lol

Or was it $2? I forget
10-19-2016 01:22 PM
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Latilleon Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
(10-19-2016 01:22 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 12:39 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 12:10 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  The NFL didn't want Memphis because of Billy Dunavant

FACT

I've been told that. But was Billy Dunavant really the ringleader behind the USFL lawsuit?

If Fred Smith hadn't dropped out but we weren't building a new stadium, wouldn't we have still been rejected?

Well Steve Erhardt, his right hand man has the $3 check lol

Or was it $2? I forget

$3... judgement was for $1 and it was tripled for being antitrust.

But is that because Billy Dunavant was the ringleader or because Steve Earhart was smart enough to get the check as the USFL went out of business?
10-19-2016 01:29 PM
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k2tigers Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
(10-19-2016 01:29 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 01:22 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 12:39 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 12:10 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  The NFL didn't want Memphis because of Billy Dunavant

FACT

I've been told that. But was Billy Dunavant really the ringleader behind the USFL lawsuit?

If Fred Smith hadn't dropped out but we weren't building a new stadium, wouldn't we have still been rejected?

Well Steve Erhardt, his right hand man has the $3 check lol

Or was it $2? I forget

$3... judgement was for $1 and it was tripled for being antitrust.

But is that because Billy Dunavant was the ringleader or because Steve Earhart was smart enough to get the check as the USFL went out of business?

the latter
10-19-2016 01:32 PM
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Brother Bluto Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Big XII rejection or NFL rejectionS for our beloved city...
(10-19-2016 01:32 PM)k2tigers Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 01:29 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 01:22 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 12:39 PM)Latilleon Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 12:10 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  The NFL didn't want Memphis because of Billy Dunavant

FACT

I've been told that. But was Billy Dunavant really the ringleader behind the USFL lawsuit?

If Fred Smith hadn't dropped out but we weren't building a new stadium, wouldn't we have still been rejected?

Well Steve Erhardt, his right hand man has the $3 check lol

Or was it $2? I forget

$3... judgement was for $1 and it was tripled for being antitrust.

But is that because Billy Dunavant was the ringleader or because Steve Earhart was smart enough to get the check as the USFL went out of business?

the latter

Both
10-19-2016 04:57 PM
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