Only a handful of coaches are taking over that TTU program in 2013/2014 and taking them dancing 3 years later. The roster he inherited in 2013-2014 makes our 2009-2010 roster look like the Dream Team. You can't discredit having to do a total rebuild, from the ground up. You take some lumps in the process in the W and L column, but to go 19-12 at TTU, in the toughest conference in CBB, when you started with a D2 roster 2 years prior is winning.

On the other hand, some things can be said for patience (as long as the head coach is recruiting at a somewhat high and sustainable level).

San Diego State went to 2 NCAA tourneys in Steve Fisher's first 9 seasons. Can you imagine that here?

In the 8 seasons that followed those first 9, they've been to 6 NCAA tourneys (2 S16s) and 2 NIT Final Fours.

(08-23-2016 10:37 AM)HoopDreams Wrote:  In the end, I come back to a single mantra. Smith has won everywhere he has been. Just keep saying that, if you ever start to worry. Smith has won everywhere he has been. Worried about whether the guy still has fire in his belly? Smith has won everywhere he has been. Concerned about the slow trickle of recruits to the program? Smith has won everywhere he has been. Just keep telling yourself that, as what could be a difficult season unfolds. Smith has won everywhere he has been.

Um, Geoff...Tubby was 46-50 overall at Texas Tech, 18-36 in the Big 12.

#doe

^^^^THIS^^^^

Yeah, we lived that here. We had a similar trajectory with Cal in his first 5 seasons, then the last 4 seasons happened.

(08-23-2016 02:57 PM)mthom Wrote:  Only a handful of coaches are taking over that TTU program in 2013/2014 and taking them dancing 3 years later. The roster he inherited in 2013-2014 makes our 2009-2010 roster look like the Dream Team. You can't discredit having to do a total rebuild, from the ground up. You take some lumps in the process in the W and L column, but to go 19-12 at TTU, in the toughest conference in CBB, when you started with a D2 roster 2 years prior is winning.

I never said it was an easy job nor was it a point of contention.

Geoff said he's won everywhere he's been.

The final record and final conference record are both losing records.

That's as black and white as it gets.

And his conference record while at Minnesota is a losing record as well.

All I was saying, is Geoff was wrong in his blanket statement.

If you want to discuss the multiple reasons Tubby wasn't a winner at Texas Tech, have at it though.

hmm, we may have to give potential recruits a lil credit for due diligence

(08-23-2016 03:16 PM)Penny Lane Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 03:00 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  On the other hand, some things can be said for patience (as long as the head coach is recruiting at a somewhat high and sustainable level).

San Diego State went to 2 NCAA tourneys in Steve Fisher's first 9 seasons. Can you imagine that here?

In the 8 seasons that followed those first 9, they've been to 6 NCAA tourneys (2 S16s) and 2 NIT Final Fours.

Memphis fans ain't waiting 9 years i can tell you that.

Obviously.

(08-23-2016 10:37 AM)HoopDreams Wrote:  In the end, I come back to a single mantra. Smith has won everywhere he has been. Just keep saying that, if you ever start to worry. Smith has won everywhere he has been. Worried about whether the guy still has fire in his belly? Smith has won everywhere he has been. Concerned about the slow trickle of recruits to the program? Smith has won everywhere he has been. Just keep telling yourself that, as what could be a difficult season unfolds. Smith has won everywhere he has been.

Um, Geoff...Tubby was 46-50 overall at Texas Tech, 18-36 in the Big 12.

#doe

Tubby had to rebuild Texas Tech after their Billy Gillispie debacle. Not really fair. BCG was Tech's version of Tic Price kinda sorta...

(08-23-2016 03:18 PM)EarthBoundMisfit Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 10:37 AM)HoopDreams Wrote:  In the end, I come back to a single mantra. Smith has won everywhere he has been. Just keep saying that, if you ever start to worry. Smith has won everywhere he has been. Worried about whether the guy still has fire in his belly? Smith has won everywhere he has been. Concerned about the slow trickle of recruits to the program? Smith has won everywhere he has been. Just keep telling yourself that, as what could be a difficult season unfolds. Smith has won everywhere he has been.

Um, Geoff...Tubby was 46-50 overall at Texas Tech, 18-36 in the Big 12.

#doe

Tubby had to rebuild Texas Tech after their Billy Gillispie debacle. Not really fair. BCG was Tech's version of Tic Price kinda sorta...

I didn't say it was fair or that the job was easy OR even that Tubby Smith was a poor basketball coach.

Geoff SAID he won everywhere he's been.

That's simply NOT true.

That's all I was pointing out.

Is it really that big a crime that he had a losing record at one job?

well, we canned a young hot shot head coach, who took teams to post season tournaments, brought in highly rated recruited and had a 70% winning record; and we all wanted to run him out of town as fast as possible. Regardless of who the coach is around here and their overall track record, people are going to complain.

(08-23-2016 03:04 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 02:57 PM)mthom Wrote:  Only a handful of coaches are taking over that TTU program in 2013/2014 and taking them dancing 3 years later. The roster he inherited in 2013-2014 makes our 2009-2010 roster look like the Dream Team. You can't discredit having to do a total rebuild, from the ground up. You take some lumps in the process in the W and L column, but to go 19-12 at TTU, in the toughest conference in CBB, when you started with a D2 roster 2 years prior is winning.

I never said it was an easy job nor was it a point of contention.

Geoff said he's won everywhere he's been.

The final record and final conference record are both losing records.

That's as black and white as it gets.

And his conference record while at Minnesota is a losing record as well.

All I was saying, is Geoff was wrong in his blanket statement.

If you want to discuss the multiple reasons Tubby wasn't a winner at Texas Tech, have at it though.

Won...

Hmmmm....Since we want to nit pick lets analyze that word...

Did he win at Minnesota...Yes...By definition if he won 1 game he won at Minny and TT.

See it is easy to nit pick words and stats even when we know what the author meant in spirit.

So factually Geoff was correct, Can I get you to agree on that and drop this subject?

(08-23-2016 03:21 PM)sportsfather1 Wrote:  well, we canned a young hot shot head coach, who took teams to post season tournaments, brought in highly rated recruited and had a 70% winning record; and we all wanted to run him out of town as fast as possible. Regardless of who the coach is around here and their overall track record, people are going to complain.

This would be true if recruiting players hadn't fallen off and the previously recruited talent hadn't transferred out in droves.

I believe 100% that Josh would still be the Memphis head coach if the entire 2014 or whenever recruiting class was still there AND he was still recruiting at a high level.

(08-23-2016 03:23 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 03:04 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 02:57 PM)mthom Wrote:  Only a handful of coaches are taking over that TTU program in 2013/2014 and taking them dancing 3 years later. The roster he inherited in 2013-2014 makes our 2009-2010 roster look like the Dream Team. You can't discredit having to do a total rebuild, from the ground up. You take some lumps in the process in the W and L column, but to go 19-12 at TTU, in the toughest conference in CBB, when you started with a D2 roster 2 years prior is winning.

I never said it was an easy job nor was it a point of contention.

Geoff said he's won everywhere he's been.

The final record and final conference record are both losing records.

That's as black and white as it gets.

And his conference record while at Minnesota is a losing record as well.

All I was saying, is Geoff was wrong in his blanket statement.

If you want to discuss the multiple reasons Tubby wasn't a winner at Texas Tech, have at it though.

Won...

Hmmmm....Since we want to nit pick lets analyze that word...

Did he win at Minnesota...Yes...By definition if he won 1 game he won at Minny and TT.

See it is easy to nit pick words and stats even when we know what the author meant in spirit.

So factually Geoff was correct, Can I get you to agree on that and drop this subject?

Most folks I know - you and Geoff may have different friends and standards though - consider above .500 winning and below .500 losing.

I know it sounds crazy, but some folks do go by that barometer.

(08-23-2016 03:25 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 03:23 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 03:04 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 02:57 PM)mthom Wrote:  Only a handful of coaches are taking over that TTU program in 2013/2014 and taking them dancing 3 years later. The roster he inherited in 2013-2014 makes our 2009-2010 roster look like the Dream Team. You can't discredit having to do a total rebuild, from the ground up. You take some lumps in the process in the W and L column, but to go 19-12 at TTU, in the toughest conference in CBB, when you started with a D2 roster 2 years prior is winning.

I never said it was an easy job nor was it a point of contention.

Geoff said he's won everywhere he's been.

The final record and final conference record are both losing records.

That's as black and white as it gets.

And his conference record while at Minnesota is a losing record as well.

All I was saying, is Geoff was wrong in his blanket statement.

If you want to discuss the multiple reasons Tubby wasn't a winner at Texas Tech, have at it though.

Won...

Hmmmm....Since we want to nit pick lets analyze that word...

Did he win at Minnesota...Yes...By definition if he won 1 game he won at Minny and TT.

See it is easy to nit pick words and stats even when we know what the author meant in spirit.

So factually Geoff was correct, Can I get you to agree on that and drop this subject?

Most folks I know - you and Geoff may have different friends and standards though - consider above .500 winning and below .500 losing.

I know it sounds crazy, but some folks do go by that barometer.

Like I said you know what he meant in spirit but are nitpicking his words...By definition saying he has won everywhere he as been means he won at least one game...He didn't say he had a winning record did he.

Secondly you know he meant that he was successful based on the previous history of the school.

(08-23-2016 03:24 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 03:21 PM)sportsfather1 Wrote:  well, we canned a young hot shot head coach, who took teams to post season tournaments, brought in highly rated recruited and had a 70% winning record; and we all wanted to run him out of town as fast as possible. Regardless of who the coach is around here and their overall track record, people are going to complain.

This would be true if recruiting players hadn't fallen off and the previously recruited talent hadn't transferred out in droves.

I believe 100% that Josh would still be the Memphis head coach if the entire 2014 or whenever recruiting class was still there AND he was still recruiting at a high level.

probably so. going to be interesting to see how he rekindles his career coaching in the ACC and having that brand as a tool for recruiting. he seemed to set himself up with a pretty good coaching staff this time. we'll see if he can keep that assistant's door from revolving like it seemed to do here year after year.

(08-23-2016 03:23 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  See it is easy to nit pick words and stats even when we know what the author meant in spirit.

I know what Geoff implied that he thought to be true, that doesn't make it any more true...as I've already said, Tubby had less wins overall and in league play in his SECOND year than his FIRST - so there was no true progression - like a new coach going from 9 to 15 to 20 wins in three consecutive seasons - that would indicate an upward trend.

No true progression and having an overall losing record.

Not sure why that translates into winning.

But whatever at this point.

(08-23-2016 03:29 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 03:25 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 03:23 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 03:04 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 02:57 PM)mthom Wrote:  Only a handful of coaches are taking over that TTU program in 2013/2014 and taking them dancing 3 years later. The roster he inherited in 2013-2014 makes our 2009-2010 roster look like the Dream Team. You can't discredit having to do a total rebuild, from the ground up. You take some lumps in the process in the W and L column, but to go 19-12 at TTU, in the toughest conference in CBB, when you started with a D2 roster 2 years prior is winning.

I never said it was an easy job nor was it a point of contention.

Geoff said he's won everywhere he's been.

The final record and final conference record are both losing records.

That's as black and white as it gets.

And his conference record while at Minnesota is a losing record as well.

All I was saying, is Geoff was wrong in his blanket statement.

If you want to discuss the multiple reasons Tubby wasn't a winner at Texas Tech, have at it though.

Won...

Hmmmm....Since we want to nit pick lets analyze that word...

Did he win at Minnesota...Yes...By definition if he won 1 game he won at Minny and TT.

See it is easy to nit pick words and stats even when we know what the author meant in spirit.

So factually Geoff was correct, Can I get you to agree on that and drop this subject?

Most folks I know - you and Geoff may have different friends and standards though - consider above .500 winning and below .500 losing.

I know it sounds crazy, but some folks do go by that barometer.

Like I said you know what he meant in spirit but are nitpicking his words...By definition saying he has won everywhere he as been means he won at least one game...He didn't say he had a winning record did he.

Secondly you know he meant that he was successful based on the previous history of the school.

I guess so, man...Bobby Knight went to 3 NCAAs (including a S16) in his first 4 years at Tech, but whatever.

(08-23-2016 03:31 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 03:29 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 03:25 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 03:23 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 03:04 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  I never said it was an easy job nor was it a point of contention.

Geoff said he's won everywhere he's been.

The final record and final conference record are both losing records.

That's as black and white as it gets.

And his conference record while at Minnesota is a losing record as well.

All I was saying, is Geoff was wrong in his blanket statement.

If you want to discuss the multiple reasons Tubby wasn't a winner at Texas Tech, have at it though.

Won...

Hmmmm....Since we want to nit pick lets analyze that word...

Did he win at Minnesota...Yes...By definition if he won 1 game he won at Minny and TT.

See it is easy to nit pick words and stats even when we know what the author meant in spirit.

So factually Geoff was correct, Can I get you to agree on that and drop this subject?

Most folks I know - you and Geoff may have different friends and standards though - consider above .500 winning and below .500 losing.

I know it sounds crazy, but some folks do go by that barometer.

Like I said you know what he meant in spirit but are nitpicking his words...By definition saying he has won everywhere he as been means he won at least one game...He didn't say he had a winning record did he.

Secondly you know he meant that he was successful based on the previous history of the school.

I guess so, man...Bobby Knight went to 3 NCAAs (including a S16) in his first 4 years at Tech, but whatever.

And I agree Bobby Knight is a better coach than Tubby.

(08-23-2016 12:28 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 12:26 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 11:51 AM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 11:41 AM)BinghamptonNed Wrote:  Tubby may win a national championship here or he may be average and get canned, but to say he has not been a winner everywhere he has gone makes you look stupid. Even more so than normal.

Tubby Smith's record at Texas Tech was 46-50 overall and 18-36 in the Big 12.

What bizarro world am I living in?

I think you've got the right idea, but I will qualify the Texas Tech situation a bit, the previous years prior to Tubby were:

Pat Knight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Knight

2008–09 Texas Tech 14–19 3–13 11th
2009–10 Texas Tech 19–16 4–12 T–9th NIT Quarterfinals
2010–11 Texas Tech 13–19 5–11 T–10th

Billy G: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Gillispie

2011–12 Texas Tech 8–23 1–17 10th

Then Tubby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubby_Smith

2013–14 Texas Tech 14–18 6–12 9th
2014–15 Texas Tech 13–19 3–15 10th
2015–16 Texas Tech 19–13 9–9 7th NCAA First Round

>>>

So, it was a huge rebuild and took a little bit. Not actually that dissimilar to our situation in regards to how far below expectations we have been for a few years now.

You are 100% correct that Tubby was not a winner technically at TT, but he did right the ship at TT and he did win everywhere else.

Call it you're right on the facts, but the concept mostly holds if you curve the TT situation?

>>>

It doesn't really matter, the concerns with Tubby are not that he's performed well at all stops (he did), but rather how much is left in the tank of a 65 year old veteran who hasn't recruited that hard out of the box.

I'm willing to give a legit HOF coach like Tubby some rope, but I'd be more confident if were hiring the Tubby that UK or Minny let go. Wonder about tire tread, not resume or quality at peak.

Just my $0.02, your mileage may vary.

Not trashing Tubby but it was a joke that they got in the NCAA last year

P5 bias at its best

8 of their losses were to ranked Big 12 teams.. They beat #14 Iowa State, beat #3 Oklahoma...who had thumped them pretty good when OU was ranked #1 just a few weeks earlier, and beat #21 Baylor kind of handily. I'd let a 19-13 team in under those circumstances. Their record against the top 25 wasn't the greatest last season...but they were still rebuilding. If Tubby had been with them this year...they would have been like 1 or 2 years away from contending for the Big 12 tourney title every other year.

(08-23-2016 03:34 PM)EarthBoundMisfit Wrote:  

(08-23-2016 12:28 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  Not trashing Tubby but it was a joke that they got in the NCAA last year

P5 bias at its best

8 of their losses were to ranked Big 12 teams.. They beat #14 Iowa State, beat #3 Oklahoma...who had thumped them pretty good when OU was ranked #1 just a few weeks earlier, and beat #21 Baylor kind of handily. I'd let a 19-13 team in under those circumstances. Their record against the top 25 wasn't the greatest last season...but they were still rebuilding. If Tubby had been with them this year...they would have been like 1 or 2 years away from contending for the Big 12 tourney title every other year.

They didn't have any 'bad' losses either that I could tell looking at the RPI site.