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BadGolfer Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
It is interesting how people like Pat Forde point at schools and judge their academic prestige. He graduated from Missouri. While it is probably a fine institution, it isn't ranked inside the top 100 according to usnews. I am guessing he used usnews as his source for the rankings he tied to the various colleges reviewed. Put some relative rankings out and everyone gets IvyLeague. I doubt the Big X!! is looking at academic prestige in anything other than a footnote. Otherwise, they would be considering Rice. So while it makes him feel good to point out that these schools aren't the cream of the crop academically, neither is his alma mater.
07-20-2016 02:10 PM
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HometownTiger Offline
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RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2016 02:13 PM by HometownTiger.)
07-20-2016 02:10 PM
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Brother Bluto Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 02:04 PM)3601 Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 01:26 PM)neillis Wrote:  Cecil C. Humphreys has a horrible ranking. Its biggest selling point, the highest BPR in the State, isn't a selling point any more.

Why isn't that a selling point anymore? Is it not still the case or do people just not care about failing the bar exam?

So does this mean our law school only graduates a bunch of ambulance chasers?
07-20-2016 02:11 PM
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BadGolfer Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 02:04 PM)3601 Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 01:26 PM)neillis Wrote:  Cecil C. Humphreys has a horrible ranking. Its biggest selling point, the highest BPR in the State, isn't a selling point any more.

Why isn't that a selling point anymore? Is it not still the case or do people just not care about failing the bar exam?

I think Belmont passed them in the latest report.
07-20-2016 02:16 PM
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HometownTiger Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
Is it crazy for me to think that academics are a tie-breaker at best? I get why school presidents and administration has to throw that out there as an important criteria (to be PC), but let's say a school like Alabama was a joke academically, but just as dominate as they are on the football field. Does anyone in the Big 12 bat an eye? Can't imagine that being the case...

We have billions of dollars on the table and are willing to play ball. We're fine.
07-20-2016 02:18 PM
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Brother Bluto Offline
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RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 02:18 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  Is it crazy for me to think that academics are a tie-breaker at best? I get why school presidents and administration has to throw that out there as an important criteria (to be PC), but let's say a school like Alabama was a joke academically, but just as dominate as they are on the football field. Does anyone in the Big 12 bat an eye? Can't imagine that being the case...

We have billions of dollars on the table and are willing to play ball. We're fine.


It's a load of bs IMO
07-20-2016 02:19 PM
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neillis Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 02:04 PM)3601 Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 01:26 PM)neillis Wrote:  Cecil C. Humphreys has a horrible ranking. Its biggest selling point, the highest BPR in the State, isn't a selling point any more.

Why isn't that a selling point anymore? Is it not still the case or do people just not care about failing the bar exam?

People care. The rate dropped beyond the national average between 2013-2014 and fell again the next year. BPR used to be in the upper 90s.
07-20-2016 02:51 PM
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neillis Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  It is interesting how people like Pat Forde point at schools and judge their academic prestige. He graduated from Missouri. While it is probably a fine institution, it isn't ranked inside the top 100 according to usnews. I am guessing he used usnews as his source for the rankings he tied to the various colleges reviewed. Put some relative rankings out and everyone gets IvyLeague. I doubt the Big X!! is looking at academic prestige in anything other than a footnote. Otherwise, they would be considering Rice. So while it makes him feel good to point out that these schools aren't the cream of the crop academically, neither is his alma mater.

Missouri has a top-ranked journalism program.
07-20-2016 02:52 PM
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neillis Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 02:18 PM)HometownTiger Wrote:  Is it crazy for me to think that academics are a tie-breaker at best? I get why school presidents and administration has to throw that out there as an important criteria (to be PC), but let's say a school like Alabama was a joke academically, but just as dominate as they are on the football field. Does anyone in the Big 12 bat an eye? Can't imagine that being the case...

We have billions of dollars on the table and are willing to play ball. We're fine.

It matters to Texas because Texas is an AAU school and has a high standard (which isn't met) for its conference brethren. I agree with you, though.
07-20-2016 02:53 PM
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neillis Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 02:11 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 02:04 PM)3601 Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 01:26 PM)neillis Wrote:  Cecil C. Humphreys has a horrible ranking. Its biggest selling point, the highest BPR in the State, isn't a selling point any more.

Why isn't that a selling point anymore? Is it not still the case or do people just not care about failing the bar exam?

So does this mean our law school only graduates a bunch of ambulance chasers?

Not necessarily. It means our law school has traditionally been in the pits rankings-wise, is relatively young on the national scene, almost lost its accreditation because the physical status of the school was piss-poor before it moved to its new location, and has traditionally not had a wide-network of alumnae. However, the school is now listed as having one of the best facilities in the world , its location is ideal because it is a walk away from just about every court, its externship program is ahead of the industry (many schools are having to scramble to increase the profile of their externship programs now that the ABA requires a minimum number of hours), etc.

I can't speak for ambulance chasers because I'm committed to government service, but we have some truly distinguished alumnae. For reference, two of the five sitting Tennessee Supreme Court Justices are Memphis grads.
07-20-2016 02:59 PM
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BadGolfer Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 02:52 PM)neillis Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  It is interesting how people like Pat Forde point at schools and judge their academic prestige. He graduated from Missouri. While it is probably a fine institution, it isn't ranked inside the top 100 according to usnews. I am guessing he used usnews as his source for the rankings he tied to the various colleges reviewed. Put some relative rankings out and everyone gets IvyLeague. I doubt the Big X!! is looking at academic prestige in anything other than a footnote. Otherwise, they would be considering Rice. So while it makes him feel good to point out that these schools aren't the cream of the crop academically, neither is his alma mater.

Missouri has a top-ranked journalism program.

That is great. I am happy for them. But he isn't referencing journalism in his article. Rather he is talking about academic prestige. There are plenty of prestigious schools (relative to the subject lets say top 25 or even top 50) with great journalism programs and also great academics all around. It just amuses me is all I am saying. People thinking they are part of some elite group when so many others do not. Great if it makes them feel better. But if you come to me with that garbage, prepare to be called out.
07-20-2016 03:02 PM
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neillis Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 03:02 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 02:52 PM)neillis Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  It is interesting how people like Pat Forde point at schools and judge their academic prestige. He graduated from Missouri. While it is probably a fine institution, it isn't ranked inside the top 100 according to usnews. I am guessing he used usnews as his source for the rankings he tied to the various colleges reviewed. Put some relative rankings out and everyone gets IvyLeague. I doubt the Big X!! is looking at academic prestige in anything other than a footnote. Otherwise, they would be considering Rice. So while it makes him feel good to point out that these schools aren't the cream of the crop academically, neither is his alma mater.

Missouri has a top-ranked journalism program.

That is great. I am happy for them. But he isn't referencing journalism in his article. Rather he is talking about academic prestige. There are plenty of prestigious schools (relative to the subject lets say top 25 or even top 50) with great journalism programs and also great academics all around. It just amuses me is all I am saying. People thinking they are part of some elite group when so many others do not. Great if it makes them feel better. But if you come to me with that garbage, prepare to be called out.

I understand your point on the subjectivity of academic progress, but do not agree with the logic of your argument. Still, though, you've piqued my interest. Hook me up with that article.
07-20-2016 03:11 PM
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AlonsoWDC Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 02:52 PM)neillis Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  It is interesting how people like Pat Forde point at schools and judge their academic prestige. He graduated from Missouri. While it is probably a fine institution, it isn't ranked inside the top 100 according to usnews. I am guessing he used usnews as his source for the rankings he tied to the various colleges reviewed. Put some relative rankings out and everyone gets IvyLeague. I doubt the Big X!! is looking at academic prestige in anything other than a footnote. Otherwise, they would be considering Rice. So while it makes him feel good to point out that these schools aren't the cream of the crop academically, neither is his alma mater.

Missouri has a top-ranked journalism program.

Quite so.
07-20-2016 03:15 PM
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tigergreen Offline
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RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 01:32 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 01:29 PM)AlonsoWDC Wrote:  Our law school gets a really bad rap but I don't think it matters unless you really want to be somewhere that only a T14 law school can get you.

Really? I thought we stacked up pretty good

I guess we get no points for the Kemmons Wilson lodging school or the Fogelman bidness school?

I thought Fogelman just won some top ranking recently?

Also, the School of Public Health (nursing program) is very highly ranked...too bad UT will never let us buy the med school from them.
07-20-2016 03:26 PM
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BadGolfer Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 03:11 PM)neillis Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 03:02 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 02:52 PM)neillis Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  It is interesting how people like Pat Forde point at schools and judge their academic prestige. He graduated from Missouri. While it is probably a fine institution, it isn't ranked inside the top 100 according to usnews. I am guessing he used usnews as his source for the rankings he tied to the various colleges reviewed. Put some relative rankings out and everyone gets IvyLeague. I doubt the Big X!! is looking at academic prestige in anything other than a footnote. Otherwise, they would be considering Rice. So while it makes him feel good to point out that these schools aren't the cream of the crop academically, neither is his alma mater.

Missouri has a top-ranked journalism program.

That is great. I am happy for them. But he isn't referencing journalism in his article. Rather he is talking about academic prestige. There are plenty of prestigious schools (relative to the subject lets say top 25 or even top 50) with great journalism programs and also great academics all around. It just amuses me is all I am saying. People thinking they are part of some elite group when so many others do not. Great if it makes them feel better. But if you come to me with that garbage, prepare to be called out.

I understand your point on the subjectivity of academic progress, but do not agree with the logic of your argument. Still, though, you've piqued my interest. Hook me up with that article.

I am not sure how you can disagree with my point, rather than holding a different set of values when it comes to ranking individual programs. In this article, he is grouping entire institutions together based on a ranking of the entire institution. What I am pointing out, is that he is saying the entire group of schools in his list are not overwhelmingly impressive from an academic standpoint. He does infer this point. So by the same logic he is using, I am using it to conclude that his institution is relatively unimpressive. My logic is not flawed, though you may disagree with the conclusions or assumptions I have drawn. My conclusions are based on my own perspective. With that you are absolutely able to disagree.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/if-big-12-e...ncaaf.html
07-20-2016 03:26 PM
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80sTiger Offline
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RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
Well, I tried. Continue on with the vibrant conversation.
07-20-2016 03:30 PM
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neillis Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 03:26 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  I am not sure how you can disagree with my point, rather than holding a different set of values when it comes to ranking individual programs.

Sure I can. We can reach the same point while disagreeing on the reasoning. Most arguments aren't binary.

(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  In this article, he is grouping entire institutions together based on a ranking of the entire institution. What I am pointing out, is that he is saying the entire group of schools in his list are not overwhelmingly impressive from an academic standpoint. He does infer this point. So by the same logic he is using, I am using it to conclude that his institution is relatively unimpressive.

My problem with your logic is that you used Pat Forde's academic pedigree to invalidate his argument when he never used Missouri to show how bad Memphis is academically. Using his metric (and the metric by which many will judge our esteemed school), Memphis is at a disadvantage. I have been vocal on this board for years that the niece of a UTexas Boardmember told me that her uncle said he did not think Memphis' academic profile was worthy to be in the same conference as Texas. I agree that academic rankings have a degree of subjectivity. Therefore, hopefully our current strengths and future potential can cover our weaknesses.

The way you get to that point is by pulling Forde's argument down because he went to Missouri. Assuming arguendo that there is merit to that reasoning, then no Memphis alumnus can ever criticize the academics of a "more prestigious" school. We are all stuck in our boxes until we get a piece of paper from a school like Stanford.

(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  ...though you may disagree with the conclusions or assumptions I have drawn.

That's the exact opposite of what I said. I agree with your conclusion, just not in how you get there.




This is the part I disagree with:

(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  It is interesting how people like Pat Forde point at schools and judge their academic prestige. He graduated from Missouri. While it is probably a fine institution, it isn't ranked inside the top 100 according to usnews.

This is the part I agree with:

(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  I doubt the Big X!! is looking at academic prestige in anything other than a footnote. Otherwise, they would be considering Rice. So while it makes him feel good to point out that these schools aren't the cream of the crop academically, neither is his alma mater.
07-20-2016 03:49 PM
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neillis Offline
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RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
07-20-2016 04:01 PM
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BadGolfer Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
(07-20-2016 03:49 PM)neillis Wrote:  
(07-20-2016 03:26 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  I am not sure how you can disagree with my point, rather than holding a different set of values when it comes to ranking individual programs.

Sure I can. We can reach the same point while disagreeing on the reasoning. Most arguments aren't binary.

(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  In this article, he is grouping entire institutions together based on a ranking of the entire institution. What I am pointing out, is that he is saying the entire group of schools in his list are not overwhelmingly impressive from an academic standpoint. He does infer this point. So by the same logic he is using, I am using it to conclude that his institution is relatively unimpressive.

My problem with your logic is that you used Pat Forde's academic pedigree to invalidate his argument when he never used Missouri to show how bad Memphis is academically. Using his metric (and the metric by which many will judge our esteemed school), Memphis is at a disadvantage. I have been vocal on this board for years that the niece of a UTexas Boardmember told me that her uncle said he did not think Memphis' academic profile was worthy to be in the same conference as Texas. I agree that academic rankings have a degree of subjectivity. Therefore, hopefully our current strengths and future potential can cover our weaknesses.

The way you get to that point is by pulling Forde's argument down because he went to Missouri. Assuming arguendo that there is merit to that reasoning, then no Memphis alumnus can ever criticize the academics of a "more prestigious" school. We are all stuck in our boxes until we get a piece of paper from a school like Stanford.

(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  ...though you may disagree with the conclusions or assumptions I have drawn.

That's the exact opposite of what I said. I agree with your conclusion, just not in how you get there.




This is the part I disagree with:

(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  It is interesting how people like Pat Forde point at schools and judge their academic prestige. He graduated from Missouri. While it is probably a fine institution, it isn't ranked inside the top 100 according to usnews.

This is the part I agree with:

(07-20-2016 02:10 PM)BadGolfer Wrote:  I doubt the Big X!! is looking at academic prestige in anything other than a footnote. Otherwise, they would be considering Rice. So while it makes him feel good to point out that these schools aren't the cream of the crop academically, neither is his alma mater.

Many will look at this conversation and say who cares?! I will argue with a wall and find it fun. So I care because this is one of those conversations that is not condescending or mean, so I enjoy it.

You are assuming a few things. Maybe this is where the disconnect is visual. First, I am not talking about the University of Memphis here. If I were, then I would be off base. I am talking about the eight schools in his article, Memphis being one. I would argue that 5 of the 8 are relatively similar in ranking, to the University of Missouri, from this report.

While he does not use Missouri as a metric or a variable in the calculation of his argument. I feel, maybe unfoundedly to others, that his institution is also fair game here. Just because he did not use Missouri, does not mean that I cannot. Maybe what I should have said is: since he is suggesting that these eight schools are in no way prestigious (his comment: Worst academic profile of the lot – which is saying something), then neither is the school where he received his education. So he is essentially saying, these schools aren't prestigious and neither is the school I went to. My original point was not to defend the U of M. My original point was that he is judging these schools that could be considered similarly ranked to the school he went to. I feel that he is hypocritical and cocky when it has been unearned. If he went to Northwestern or Stanford, then his article would be much more acceptable in my view. His tone is what I felt was a little ridiculous. That was my point. I had an extremely minor point on the subjectivity of academic progress.
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2016 04:24 PM by BadGolfer.)
07-20-2016 04:22 PM
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DALLAS TIGER 78 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Our Academic Progress Data Points
As a native Texan and alive way back' there I remember how the University of Texas was just another state school' while well thought of no shining example of Plato's garden. Then after Charles Whitman shot and killed 14 people from the University clock tower in 1966 the school, in an effort to improve the image, began to hire Ivy League professors by paying them much more money than Harvard, Yale and Princeton, were paying. That was the beginning of UT's academic rise. It takes money. Fortunately for UT the Tidewaters and the oil wells on campus pay well.
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2016 04:51 PM by DALLAS TIGER 78.)
07-20-2016 04:49 PM
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