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What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
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Love and Honor Offline
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What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
Last weekend I had a layover at the Atlanta airport, and upon taking off I saw both the new Falcons and Braves stadiums being built out in the distance. What's the city thinking? After looking into the ballpark deal especially (see below) it's especially bad, but it just makes no sense really. Is the city worried that both teams will abandon the 11th largest metro area in the US because their facilities are 20 years old? Same goes for the Rangers trying to get a new park in Arlington, it's not like they'd seriously consider moving to San Antonio or another much smaller city. I know that the Braves have said that Turner Field is far from the region's center of population, but that's the least of the Braves' attendance problems right now. At least the Falcons can argue that they've need something to attract Super Bowls, stay competitive for college games, and get an MLS team, as flimsy as that may be.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/co...-deal-ever
06-17-2016 11:58 AM
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niuco90 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
From what I have heard. Turner Field is a pain to get to. Not that any place in Atlanta is easy to drive to. that plus the new development and stadium will have other types of entertainment which the team hopes will spur attendance. Which may also give some insight as to why the team is bad at baseball right now so they can do a Cub-style rebuild. They are hoping they start to peak at the same time they have the new facility. It is a huge was of money, but none of the pols will be around when the city goes bankrupt so who really cares.
06-17-2016 12:39 PM
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Love and Honor Offline
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
(06-17-2016 12:39 PM)niuco90 Wrote:  From what I have heard. Turner Field is a pain to get to. Not that any place in Atlanta is easy to drive to. that plus the new development and stadium will have other types of entertainment which the team hopes will spur attendance. Which may also give some insight as to why the team is bad at baseball right now so they can do a Cub-style rebuild. They are hoping they start to peak at the same time they have the new facility. It is a huge was of money, but none of the pols will be around when the city goes bankrupt so who really cares.

Yeah, that sums up most stadium deals. Politicians like the big publicity and the perception that the economy is improving, but when it's time to pay no one can point the finger at them once you're in retirement.
06-19-2016 10:58 AM
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Post: #4
RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
(06-17-2016 11:58 AM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Last weekend I had a layover at the Atlanta airport, and upon taking off I saw both the new Falcons and Braves stadiums being built out in the distance. What's the city thinking? After looking into the ballpark deal especially (see below) it's especially bad, but it just makes no sense really. Is the city worried that both teams will abandon the 11th largest metro area in the US because their facilities are 20 years old? Same goes for the Rangers trying to get a new park in Arlington, it's not like they'd seriously consider moving to San Antonio or another much smaller city. I know that the Braves have said that Turner Field is far from the region's center of population, but that's the least of the Braves' attendance problems right now. At least the Falcons can argue that they've need something to attract Super Bowls, stay competitive for college games, and get an MLS team, as flimsy as that may be.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/co...-deal-ever


Traffic is a huge issue, particularly for the Braves. The Braves stadium is really better serviced by being closer to the NE perimeter. The fans that attend often are much closer to there, and you save them probably an hour round trip just on traffic alone. I'd GTFO of there if I were the Hawks or Falcons as well. Partially for traffic, partially for taxes, and partially to get away from The Connector so fans of the Falcons / CFB games there can tailgate and have space you don't need a CCW to securely be in.

THAT ... BEING ... SAID ...

I'm flat out against ALL subsidies by taxpayers at ANY level to any sports facility. Either stand on your own two feet or go somewhere else where you can. I can look the other way at tax dollars going to fund infrastructure and/or public transit in accordance with a sports facility though.
06-20-2016 03:15 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
(06-17-2016 11:58 AM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Last weekend I had a layover at the Atlanta airport, and upon taking off I saw both the new Falcons and Braves stadiums being built out in the distance. What's the city thinking? After looking into the ballpark deal especially (see below) it's especially bad, but it just makes no sense really. Is the city worried that both teams will abandon the 11th largest metro area in the US because their facilities are 20 years old? Same goes for the Rangers trying to get a new park in Arlington, it's not like they'd seriously consider moving to San Antonio or another much smaller city. I know that the Braves have said that Turner Field is far from the region's center of population, but that's the least of the Braves' attendance problems right now. At least the Falcons can argue that they've need something to attract Super Bowls, stay competitive for college games, and get an MLS team, as flimsy as that may be.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/co...-deal-ever

I'll disagree with GTS and say the downtown location is great for the teams as you were able to do reverse commutes to get to the facilities. No one is getting to SunTrust Park by game time with the current traffic nightmare around the Cobb Cloverleaf.

The why for the stadiums is different for each team. The Braves are owned by Liberty Media, functionally an absentee owner that sets a spending cap for the Braves at around $100 million USD every year. This wouldn't have been such a problem if the Braves hadn't signed one of the worst TV deals in history, basically giving away their games for peanuts. The final part of the set-up is that while Turner Field was gifted to the Braves, it is operated by the Atlanta Stadium Authority.

So the Braves go to the Mayor and are looking for about $190 million USD worth of renovations to Turner Field, plus want to city to use its eminent domain powers to condemn some of the buildings around the stadium to turn an area that has resisted gentrification into a mixed use development. These negotiations had been happening on and off for about 3 years.

Then out of the blue Falcons owner Arthur Blank says he wants a new stadium as well. Despite the fact that Blank has enough money to build his own facility and owns a teams that uses the Ga Dome 8 times a year, this announcement got the attention of not only the Mayor but the Governor. The Dome is owned by the state Convention Authority and made its money off of hosting ancillary events such as SEC Championships, Peach Bowls and Final Fours. Blank might be loaded, but he was never going to be able to build a domed facility by himself. And without the roof he doesn't get those other events.

So Blank proposes paying at the time $700 million USD with the city contributing the other $300 million USD from a hotel tax for a new building that will host a couple of Super Bowls, potentially be a World Cup site and and be the home of a new soccer team. But unlike the last deal, Blank will essentially own M-B Stadium, and reap those rewards.

All of this happened within the span of 13-16 months and pissed the Braves leadership off, causing them to look for other options. They found their huckleberry in Cobb County, an area always trying to prove its a real destination and not just a suburb of Atlanta. The county reps held a close vote to approve the $600 million USD bond referendum for the Braves' new park.

Many like to point out that new stadium deals are done for fear of the teams leaving. But leaving is a function of ballclubs trying to maximize their pocketbooks with as little expense as possible. The Falcons are worth $814 million USD which puts them 27th in the NFL for team value. M-B Stadium will at least put Blank's team in the middle of the pack when it opens next year. The Braves will get a new revenue stream and gift wrapped ballpark. But based on the AAA team they are currently fielding, I have no idea who will show up to watch them play next year.
06-21-2016 01:38 PM
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Love and Honor Offline
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
(06-20-2016 03:15 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/co...-deal-ever

THAT ... BEING ... SAID ...

I'm flat out against ALL subsidies by taxpayers at ANY level to any sports facility. Either stand on your own two feet or go somewhere else where you can. I can look the other way at tax dollars going to fund infrastructure and/or public transit in accordance with a sports facility though.
[/quote]

Agree 100%. Read Field of Schemes (by the author of the article) if you want further reading into the issue.

A new stadium may help increase a team's value, but I simply see that as irrelevant as far as the public is concerned. If you want to help them become more valuable and theoretically win more games, buy more tickets, ads, or sponsorships. Otherwise, let the team stand on their own merits. At least in the case of Turner Field they're not just blowing it up, selling it to GSU is probably the best case scenario as far as usage goes if its baseball days are over.
06-22-2016 08:56 PM
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
If you charge visitors (rental car fees and hotel taxes) I'm more than okay with that, as that is basically taking magazines, food/restaurant trips, booze and bar trips, and for Vegas, trips to the casino, etc... from their budget as they come to town. Public funding becomes a problem when it takes away directly from the majority of the taxpayers that live in a municipality. That should no longer be tolerated on any level.
(This post was last modified: 06-22-2016 10:27 PM by C2__.)
06-22-2016 10:26 PM
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
Like everything in Atlanta it's complicated.

1.) Atlanta needed a "Jerry's World" like stadium in order to get Super Bowls, Final Fours and College Football Playoffs. Plus with all the Kick Off Classics and neutral site games, that stadium will get plenty of use. With so many SEC alumni within driving distance, it'll become like a second home for some schools. It's a great investment.

2.) The Braves stadium was built in a terrible part of town that isn't connected to mass transit. It was a pain to get in and out of the stadium. Compound that with the majority of people who attend Braves games are very different from the majority of people who live near the stadium. In Baseball, unlike Football, getting in and out of the stadium on weekdays is critical for business. The Atlanta mayor, knowing that the Braves fans were not his constituents didn't really try to keep the Braves, putting all of the cities resources toward the football stadium which will get more use. Unfortunately the new Braves stadium is also not connected to mass transit and at a critical freeway artery for the Southeast.
06-25-2016 07:45 AM
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What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
(06-22-2016 10:26 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  If you charge visitors (rental car fees and hotel taxes) I'm more than okay with that, as that is basically taking magazines, food/restaurant trips, booze and bar trips, and for Vegas, trips to the casino, etc... from their budget as they come to town.

But that's still tax revenue that could be spent on things a municipality really needs. Why give it to something that has marginal if any benefit to the locals?
06-25-2016 08:47 AM
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
I'm not really arguing with you but if they build these sports facilities with public money, that's the only funding they should get. And besides, if those taxes weren't added on for that specific purpose, nothing else would really change. If you wanted to create a bond for school funding or road repair, you could still do that but it wouldn't have any impact on whether outsiders are taxed for a sports stadium.

As I said, I like the idea, all it means is that people will cut back on some things, such as the type of hotel they go to, which restaurant(s) they go to while in town and what airline/class they fly to get there as well as other nic-nac items and thus everyone comes out ahead.
06-25-2016 03:42 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
(06-25-2016 07:45 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Like everything in Atlanta it's complicated.

1.) Atlanta needed a "Jerry's World" like stadium in order to get Super Bowls, Final Fours and College Football Playoffs. Plus with all the Kick Off Classics and neutral site games, that stadium will get plenty of use. With so many SEC alumni within driving distance, it'll become like a second home for some schools. It's a great investment.

2.) The Braves stadium was built in a terrible part of town that isn't connected to mass transit. It was a pain to get in and out of the stadium. Compound that with the majority of people who attend Braves games are very different from the majority of people who live near the stadium. In Baseball, unlike Football, getting in and out of the stadium on weekdays is critical for business. The Atlanta mayor, knowing that the Braves fans were not his constituents didn't really try to keep the Braves, putting all of the cities resources toward the football stadium which will get more use. Unfortunately the new Braves stadium is also not connected to mass transit and at a critical freeway artery for the Southeast.

I disagree with the constituency part
06-27-2016 08:32 AM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
(06-25-2016 03:42 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I'm not really arguing with you but if they build these sports facilities with public money, that's the only funding they should get. And besides, if those taxes weren't added on for that specific purpose, nothing else would really change. If you wanted to create a bond for school funding or road repair, you could still do that but it wouldn't have any impact on whether outsiders are taxed for a sports stadium.

As I said, I like the idea, all it means is that people will cut back on some things, such as the type of hotel they go to, which restaurant(s) they go to while in town and what airline/class they fly to get there as well as other nic-nac items and thus everyone comes out ahead.

Actually you are arguing. There is nothing that says a municipality can't impose a hotel tax that would fund schools or road repair. And don't forget that the VAST majority of outsiders taxed for these stadia are probably not there for a football game. So what you're really doing, besides paying for something that doesn't benefit your city to begin with, is hurting some of the OTHER industries in your town by pushing away those who might otherwise have traveled there but for the price.
06-27-2016 05:25 PM
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
Like I said, people will cut back in other areas. For example, IIRC, the Vegas stadium was funded this way and all that means is that the majority of people will cut back on a number of luxuries and especially gambling in the casinos. If my taxes go up $2 or even an extra $10-15 on a hotel stay and on a rental car, I'm not really going to notice, especially if I do stuff like eat at restaurants, go to a bar or go to some cheesy tourist attraction. All of that stuff requires a budget in its own right more than any increase in tax on a car or hotel making a difference.
06-27-2016 09:40 PM
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
Is this the future look for Turner Field?
12:42 p.m. Monday, July 25, 2016 | Filed in: Local News

[Image: Hank-Aaron-Park-1.jpg]
A park in honor of Braves legend Hank Aaron and his record breaking home run is one of the concepts in the Livable Center Initiatives draft master plan. Source: Perkins+Will

The Turner Field area — now a stretch dominated by a stadium and parking lots — could be a denser more walkable community with a street grid much like what was lost decades ago through development of two stadiums and freeways.

That’s the vision of a 92-page draft of a Livable Center Initiative master plan, released online. It shows higher density housing, retail, office space, parks, a football stadium for Georgia State University where Turner Field now stands and transit linking neighborhoods south of I-20 to the rest of downtown.

The planning exercise features puts more meat into concepts unveiled a few months ago and championed by the community through a series of workshops over recent months.

[Image: Turner-Field-LCI-1.jpg]
Rendering of master plan concepts for the Turner Field area. Source Perkins+Will

They plan to convert the ballpark into a Georgia State football stadium, and build student housing, market rate apartments, senior living, single-family homes and retail. They’ve also proposed for a Panthers baseball field to go in the footprint of the former Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium and preserving the Hank Aaron home run wall.

“With the Braves playing their final season downtown and the City actively negotiating the sale of the property, this is a highly anticipated community plan with the potential to reshape the south side of Atlanta,” the 92-page report said.

“The redevelopment of Turner Field and the core area presents an unparalleled opportunity to mend some of the unfavorable consequences previous developments have brought to the area while effectively anticipating for the challenges a growing city like Atlanta will continue to face,” the report said.

The Atlanta City Council recently approved a rezoning request to permit student housing and larger retail spaces that would allow for a full-service grocery.
07-25-2016 03:45 PM
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panama Offline
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
Sale should be announced as final in a couple of weeks,
07-26-2016 11:56 AM
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
As Cobb spends millions on Braves, Arizona official calls MLB `parasitic’
August 10, 2016 by: Dan Klepal


Quote:...Maricopa County Supervisor Andy Kunasek told Diamondbacks’ president Derrick Hall: “If it were up to me, I’d let you take your stupid baseball team and get out … go back to (expletive) West Virginia, or wherever.”...
(This post was last modified: 08-10-2016 02:59 PM by GoodOwl.)
08-10-2016 02:58 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
Two stadiums, two wildly different political outcomes

[Image: Braves_new_stadium_free.jpg]

A tale of two Atlanta stadiums: Political fortunes rise, fall in deals

Two stadiums backed by hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars. Two strong-willed politicians at the center of the deals.

Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed coasted to re-election. Cobb County Commission Chairman Tim Lee was buried by his opponent in a runoff last month.

The Falcons’ Mercedes-Benz Stadium in downtown Atlanta and SunTrust Park in Cobb County, future home of the Atlanta Braves, will undoubtedly shape the region for decades to come in ways still unknown.

Economists generally do not believe stadiums deliver on backers’ promises of jobs and investment, and indeed the current homes of the Falcons and Braves have done little to nurture renewal in surrounding neighborhoods.

But why were the political outcomes for Reed and Lee so different?.....
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2016 01:04 PM by GoodOwl.)
08-13-2016 01:03 PM
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Post: #18
RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
(06-27-2016 08:32 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-25-2016 07:45 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Like everything in Atlanta it's complicated.

1.) Atlanta needed a "Jerry's World" like stadium in order to get Super Bowls, Final Fours and College Football Playoffs. Plus with all the Kick Off Classics and neutral site games, that stadium will get plenty of use. With so many SEC alumni within driving distance, it'll become like a second home for some schools. It's a great investment.

2.) The Braves stadium was built in a terrible part of town that isn't connected to mass transit. It was a pain to get in and out of the stadium. Compound that with the majority of people who attend Braves games are very different from the majority of people who live near the stadium. In Baseball, unlike Football, getting in and out of the stadium on weekdays is critical for business. The Atlanta mayor, knowing that the Braves fans were not his constituents didn't really try to keep the Braves, putting all of the cities resources toward the football stadium which will get more use. Unfortunately the new Braves stadium is also not connected to mass transit and at a critical freeway artery for the Southeast.

I disagree with the constituency part

The center of Braves ticket holders is around Perimeter Mall. Half are north of the new stadium while the old stadium was south of downtown. A relatively small % of Braves ticket holders lived south of Turner Field. There was a concentration in Fayette County around Peachtree City, but it was pretty sparse in the south other than that. Few ticket holders in the southern half of the actual city of Atlanta, although there were a good number in the north half.
(This post was last modified: 08-15-2016 07:20 PM by bullet.)
08-15-2016 07:20 PM
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
(08-15-2016 07:20 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(06-27-2016 08:32 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-25-2016 07:45 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Like everything in Atlanta it's complicated.

1.) Atlanta needed a "Jerry's World" like stadium in order to get Super Bowls, Final Fours and College Football Playoffs. Plus with all the Kick Off Classics and neutral site games, that stadium will get plenty of use. With so many SEC alumni within driving distance, it'll become like a second home for some schools. It's a great investment.

2.) The Braves stadium was built in a terrible part of town that isn't connected to mass transit. It was a pain to get in and out of the stadium. Compound that with the majority of people who attend Braves games are very different from the majority of people who live near the stadium. In Baseball, unlike Football, getting in and out of the stadium on weekdays is critical for business. The Atlanta mayor, knowing that the Braves fans were not his constituents didn't really try to keep the Braves, putting all of the cities resources toward the football stadium which will get more use. Unfortunately the new Braves stadium is also not connected to mass transit and at a critical freeway artery for the Southeast.

I disagree with the constituency part

The center of Braves ticket holders is around Perimeter Mall. Half are north of the new stadium while the old stadium was south of downtown. A relatively small % of Braves ticket holders lived south of Turner Field. There was a concentration in Fayette County around Peachtree City, but it was pretty sparse in the south other than that. Few ticket holders in the southern half of the actual city of Atlanta, although there were a good number in the north half.

So you believe that map? Most season tix are held by corporations. And the team moved north at the expense of not only the fans south of the top end, but those that live west and east of the Perimeter. The location will be inaccessible for those supposedly in their target audience. How is anyone supposed to get from the Dunwoody to Cumberland in time for the game?
08-17-2016 06:52 PM
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RE: What is Atlanta thinking with the new stadiums?
If I were the Braves, I'd lobby for as many weekend home series as possible. Make that weekday work commute issue non-starter. If they play 55-60 home games a year on Friday, Saturday, Sunday and on holidays, they'll be just fine. Otherwise they should see a drop in attendance.
08-20-2016 10:43 AM
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