The unofficial online home for fans of the Western Michigan University Broncos. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

For those honestly curious like i was, here's the list of research institutions by Tier:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re...ted_States

(03-31-2016 12:59 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  

(03-30-2016 12:26 PM)GullLake Wrote:  

(03-30-2016 11:56 AM)floridabronco Wrote:  Just like there are different divisions or levels of competitive sports among colleges and universities, there are different levels of research universities. R1 includes schools like the University of Michigan and MSU, R2 includes WMU and CMU, and R3 includes EMU. Levels are determined by the amount and degree of research activity going on at the universities.

Research is wonderful.

However, level of research university has no impact - ZERO - on the quality of undergraduate education an institution may offer.

That is flat-out, 100% FALSE when it comes to any STEM field. Especially engineering. It may be true for the liberal arts degrees, but it means a lot in other fields.

Ummm, you need to speak with some graduate school admissions officers. They care MUCH more about the quality of TEACHING applicants have received at an undergrad school, than any research. Granted, research can have a place, but teaching needs to be - and is - the undergrad priority for grad school admissions officers.

Schools like Albion and Hope have first rate pre-med programs and the engineering programs at Kettering, the US Naval Academy, Calvin and Grove City (Metallurgy), and many others, are outstanding, but not known for research.

In short, an undergrad student will likely receive better teaching at the aforementioned schools, and in an honors college like WMU's, then going to some bloated institution who's undergrad program exists more to finance its graduate programs than to produce legitimate graduates.

In general, smaller is better and the whole "Tier" system reflects little on the quality of teaching a student will receive at an undergraduate institution.

Go Broncos!

I do speak to graduate school admissions officers...

I speak with industry even more, and they love undergrads who have applied what they learned in a research setting. To say that we are 'bloated' or that we exist to finance our graduate programs is ridiculous. Undergraduate research has made WMU very appealing for excellent students and for industry alike.

I encourage you to engage with WMU's College of Engineering and Applied Sciences to learn more.

(04-05-2016 03:05 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  I do speak to graduate school admissions officers...

I speak with industry even more, and they love undergrads who have applied what they learned in a research setting. To say that we are 'bloated' or that we exist to finance our graduate programs is ridiculous. Undergraduate research has made WMU very appealing for excellent students and for industry alike.

I encourage you to engage with WMU's College of Engineering and Applied Sciences to learn more.

Please re-read my previous post.

I said research has its place...but it is NOT has important as the quality of TEACHING at an undergrad school. I also did not say WMU is a bloated school who's undergrad programs exist to finance graduate programs (Hello, University of Michigan, who's admissions officers I have spoken with). I even gave WMU as an example of where an undergrad should consider for strong teaching.

In short, the tier system is irrelevant for undergraduates compared to the teaching available at WMU. Does provide for some nice spin, however.

I would much rather my child attended a school which rewarded it faculty based on the quality of their instruction, and the relative success of their students, than for publication, research, or other academic gobbledegook.

Gull mentioned the US Naval Academy, and I would note that none of the service academies have graduate schools, and none of their professors are required, expected, encouraged or rewarded for publishing. In fact they are expected not to do any of that, and are rather expected to spend all of their time teaching students. Class rooms at West Point (where my son is starting in June :)) average between 12 and 15 students. It is purely a teaching environment, and the students graduate at a very high rate, with a fantastic education. Consequently, Academy grads have fantastic success at gaining admission and graduating from some of the most prestigious graduate schools in the country.

I understand and appreciate the value of research schools, and know that professors are frequently the best suited to conduct the work. But at the same time I wish we would step back and remember the purpose. Universities and professors should be rewarded and compensated based principally on how well the educate the students who are paying for an education.

P

(04-07-2016 06:55 AM)brovol Wrote:  I would much rather my child attended a school which rewarded it faculty based on the quality of their instruction, and the relative success of their students, than for publication, research, or other academic gobbledegook.

Gull mentioned the US Naval Academy, and I would note that none of the service academies have graduate schools, and none of their professors are required, expected, encouraged or rewarded for publishing. In fact they are expected not to do any of that, and are rather expected to spend all of their time teaching students. Class rooms at West Point (where my son is starting in June :)) average between 12 and 15 students. It is purely a teaching environmen, and the students graduate at a very high rate, with a fantastic education. Consequently, Academy grads have fantastic success at gaining admission and graduating from some of the most prestigious graduate schools in the country.

I understand and appreciate the value of research schools, and know that professors are frequently the best suited to conduct the work. But at the same time I wish we would step back and remember the purpose. Universities and professors should be rewarded and compensated based principally on how well the educate the students who are paying for an education.

During my University days I recall having some,profs that were well published but had difficulty getting ideas across in the classroom their teaching methods left something to be desired and often times a student was left to supplement the subject material from other sources to get a handle on what was being taught.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26491...on/page/12

P5's, Boise, and US.

(07-04-2016 07:47 AM)Hiller4Hyz09 Wrote:  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26491...on/page/12

P5's, Boise, and US.

How so?

(07-04-2016 08:30 AM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(07-04-2016 07:47 AM)Hiller4Hyz09 Wrote:  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26491...on/page/12

P5's, Boise, and US.

How so?

I didn't make the list, but I agree that Terrell, Bogan and Davis are pretty damn awesome.

(07-04-2016 02:26 PM)Hiller4Hyz09 Wrote:  

(07-04-2016 08:30 AM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(07-04-2016 07:47 AM)Hiller4Hyz09 Wrote:  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26491...on/page/12

P5's, Boise, and US.

How so?

I didn't make the list, but I agree that Terrell, Bogan and Davis are pretty damn awesome.

My question was tying that list to the title of the thread. I assumed incorrectly you were too?

(07-05-2016 11:31 AM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(07-04-2016 02:26 PM)Hiller4Hyz09 Wrote:  

(07-04-2016 08:30 AM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(07-04-2016 07:47 AM)Hiller4Hyz09 Wrote:  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26491...on/page/12

P5's, Boise, and US.

How so?

I didn't make the list, but I agree that Terrell, Bogan and Davis are pretty damn awesome.

My question was tying that list to the title of the thread. I assumed incorrectly you were too?

My 8 ID's and I are in the minority around here, but yes, I posted in the correct thread. Fleck's energy and focus are positioning WMU's football program to reach new heights (for us). He's doing what Cubit could never do. Run a balanced offense...not to mention do ALL the heavy lifting as far as WMU marketing is concerned.

I'm really enjoying the ride. It's a fun time to be a Bronco.

GBL, who I completely respect and appreciate, probably won't appreciate or respect where I'm at. I was always cut from everything I ever tried out for...the opposite of an athlete.

Remember EAIII? His dad used to coach our middle school football team. I was the worst player, so they put me at DT. I quickly realized that the OLine would block everyone else but me so that the RB could run right at and over me. Not so fun, but I loved football. Going to WMU, I quickly turned from a Walmart Wolvy to bleeding Brown and Gold. WMU football really is the great pastime of my life. You might have noticed I check in on this board in my spare minutes.

It seems like those who have competed for WMU have a different take on Coach Fleck than I do. But purely as an alum fan, I'm grateful for what he's doing in the lives of our players, how he markets our team, and the product we get to cheer for fanatically, as the elitist minority.

It's FUN.

Win the MAC-West outright.

Win the MACC.

Win a bowl game on the continental USA.

That's what he was hired to do and given all the resources to do it.

FUN is FUN but it's all about performance.

Bottom line.

Bill Cubit was a quality guy and a solid coach at Western. Everyone is grateful for his contributions in Kalamazoo.
Win the MAC-West outright.
Win the MACC
Win a bowl game on the continental USA.
That's what he was hired to do....

Coach Cubit's Coaching Record
Year School G W L T Pct SRS SOS AP Pre AP High AP Post Bowl Notes
2005 Western Michigan 11 7 4 0 .636 -5.55 -7.37
2006 Western Michigan 13 8 5 0 .615 -2.77 -5.77 International Bowl-L
2007 Western Michigan 12 5 7 0 .417 -7.44 -5.03
2008 Western Michigan 13 9 4 0 .692 -0.87 -4.49 Texas Bowl-L
2009 Western Michigan 12 5 7 0 .417 -10.53-8.78
2010 Western Michigan 12 6 6 0 .500 -4.10 -7.43
2011 Western Michigan 13 7 6 0 .538 0.42 -2.97 Little Caesars Bowl-L
2012 Western Michigan 12 4 8 0 .333 -9.54 -7.04
2015 Illinois 12 5 7 0 .417 1.18 3.26
Overall 110 56 54 0 .509 -4.36 -5.07
Western Michigan 98 51 47 0 .520 -5.05 -6.11

(07-05-2016 04:31 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Win a bowl game on the continental USA.

WHAT?!? Like last year didn't count? You're too much.

You too PR.

(07-05-2016 06:56 PM)bostonbronco Wrote:  Bill Cubit was a quality guy and a solid coach at Western. Everyone is grateful for his contributions in Kalamazoo.
Win the MAC-West outright.
Win the MACC
Win a bowl game on the continental USA.
That's what he was hired to do....

...and when he didn't he was let go and Fleck was hired to IMPROVE upon Cubit's performance, not maintain it.

Plus Fleck has been given far more resources to do the job than Cubit or any previous Bronco coach had.

(07-05-2016 09:07 PM)broncofan1 Wrote:  

(07-05-2016 04:31 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Win a bowl game on the continental USA.

WHAT?!? Like last year didn't count? You're too much.

If you want to count a glorified made-for-TV exhibition game played on a Track infield on a resort island, feel free.

(07-05-2016 04:31 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Win a bowl game on the continental USA.

Wow, he wins a bowl game, which no WMU coach, including Doolittle, Molde and Cubit, ever did and the narrative changes. Even in the golden years under Molde NO Broncos team won an outright MAC Championship. The 1988 Broncos were MAC Co-Champions.

You people disgust me. Those who hate him have made posts that inferred they want to see a coach get hurt, or worse killed. If that doesn't happen, their hatred for him is so bad if he sneezes they want him in the unemployment line instead of being able to provide for his family.

Those who love him take that love to an unhealthy level.

Doolittle's record in his first 3 years was 16-11-1 with a 2-1 record vs CMU.
Uzelac (a well loved and respected former head coach) had a record of 12-21 his first 3 years, including a 1-2 record vs CMU. He finished his WMU coaching career with a 38-39 record.
Molde started his WMU coaching career with a stellar 19-15 record including a 1-2 record vs CMU.
Cubit went 20-17 in his first three seasons only being able to beat CMU once for a 1-2 record. In fact, until the last two seasons as the Broncos head coach that 1 win in his first 3 seasons was his only win vs CMU. He only beat CMU 3 times in 8 games.
Fleck in his first three seasons matched Uzelac in winning just 1 game in his first season. The only difference is when Uzelac coached they played 11 games not 12. He has gone 17-21 with a 2-1 record vs CMU.

The greatest coach the Broncos ever had in terms of wins and losses had as many wins as AL Molde in his career at WMU 62 but he had 22 fewer losses with 25 compared to Molde's 47. William Spaulding coached the team when they were known as the Hilltoppers and he became the 2ND coach of the team in just the second year of football at Western. He went 14-5-1 in his first 3 seasons and went 3-0 vs CMU.

So, in complaining about how awful and inept of a coach Fleck is and how he is the worst coach in WMU history, or in praising him and puffing him up to be this coaching genius and how he is the greatest coach in WMU history, he is neither. Fleck falls in line with all the other coaches in WMU history except Spaulding. He has a few more losses than some and a few more wins than others.

Where do I stand on Fleck? As with any head coach the Broncos have ever had, I will support you through your first 3-5 seasons, if you are still around after 3 seasons. If the team continues to show improvement and continues to give you everything they have, as long as the athletes on your team have your back I will continue to support you. But, after 5 years, if there is no outright MAC West champion and no MAC Champions on your resume my support will wane. When you start to have a good year then a bad year than a good year than 2 bad years, then it's time for a change.

I have no problem with the "row the boat" but wish it had more to do with Broncos and less to do with water. But, it doesn't matter what you, me or anyone else thinks about any of his sayings, it only matters whether or not his student athletes believe in them.

That list of things that a coach for the Broncos needs to accomplish would eliminate every head coach who has ever walked the sideline at Waldo Stadium.