I think it was a very reasonable solution to no longer have coach-led prayers. Some people have said that any player who did not want to participate in the team prayer should just not participate, but why should football players have to exclude themselves from any team bonding/unity activities? If a player feels the need to exclude themself from the activity, it isn't accomplishing the goal of uniting the team, is it?

(06-18-2015 01:06 PM)Dwight Wrote:  Some people are OK with a coach proselytizing as long as they agree with that coach's religious beliefs. That is short-sighted, in my opinion (or myopic, if you prefer). For those who practice a minority religion, it's very easy to see the benefits of separating church and state. For those in the majority religion, perhaps it's less obvious. I appreciate those out-of-towners for pointing out an unconstitutional practice here at UT. None of this has changed my opinion that Campbell is a good guy trying to do right by his players. He made a mistake, it was pointed out, and he has corrected it.

Why are people threatened by prohibiting prayers led by the coach? Anyone who wants to pray has plenty of opportunity to do so.

It is not unconstitutional. It happens all over the country. What's unconstitutional, would be forcing a kid to pray if he did not share the same Faith. I am sure Coach Campbell respected any kid that had a differing Faith. Actually, I believe the constitution is supposed to protects all of us from the government not allowing us to profess our Faith.

(06-23-2015 10:57 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  [quote='Dwight' pid='12138776' dateline='1434650793']
Some people are OK with a coach proselytizing as long as they agree with that coach's religious beliefs. That is short-sighted, in my opinion (or myopic, if you prefer). For those who practice a minority religion, it's very easy to see the benefits of separating church and state. For those in the majority religion, perhaps it's less obvious. I appreciate those out-of-towners for pointing out an unconstitutional practice here at UT. None of this has changed my opinion that Campbell is a good guy trying to do right by his players. He made a mistake, it was pointed out, and he has corrected it.

Why are people threatened by prohibiting prayers led by the coach? Anyone who wants to pray has plenty of opportunity to do so.

It is not unconstitutional. It happens all over the country. What's unconstitutional, would be forcing a kid to pray if he did not share the same Faith. I am sure Coach Campbell respected any kid that had a differing Faith. Actually, I believe the constitution is supposed to protects all of us from the government not allowing us to profess our Faith.


I live in Michigan and there is a predominately Muslim "PUBLIC " school in Dearborn MI (Dearborn Fordson) They are allowed to openly profess there Muslim Faith publicly and with the Team. For Pete sake, they had a TV show on it and NO ONE said a thing!! Just look at photos on the attached link. It is amazing the Hypocrisy in this country. The PC world we live in would never go after this school. But it is "open season" on Christians.

http://www.fordsonthemovie.com/story.php#

(06-23-2015 10:57 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 01:06 PM)Dwight Wrote:  Some people are OK with a coach proselytizing as long as they agree with that coach's religious beliefs. That is short-sighted, in my opinion (or myopic, if you prefer). For those who practice a minority religion, it's very easy to see the benefits of separating church and state. For those in the majority religion, perhaps it's less obvious. I appreciate those out-of-towners for pointing out an unconstitutional practice here at UT. None of this has changed my opinion that Campbell is a good guy trying to do right by his players. He made a mistake, it was pointed out, and he has corrected it.

Why are people threatened by prohibiting prayers led by the coach? Anyone who wants to pray has plenty of opportunity to do so.

It is not unconstitutional. It happens all over the country. What's unconstitutional, would be forcing a kid to pray if he did not share the same Faith. I am sure Coach Campbell respected any kid that had a differing Faith. Actually, I believe the constitution is supposed to protects all of us from the government not allowing us to profess our Faith.

What are you referring to by "it?" Possibly, you're arguing something different.

Your position seems to imply that Coach caved in on something that was obviously important to him. From your understanding of the coach, does that seem reasonable or is it more likely that the University and the Coach saw a problem, morally, constitutionally, whatever, with a university official leading students in prayer?

What exactly do you think the issues were that resulted in Coach Campbell making this decision?

(06-23-2015 11:22 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 10:57 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 01:06 PM)Dwight Wrote:  Some people are OK with a coach proselytizing as long as they agree with that coach's religious beliefs. That is short-sighted, in my opinion (or myopic, if you prefer). For those who practice a minority religion, it's very easy to see the benefits of separating church and state. For those in the majority religion, perhaps it's less obvious. I appreciate those out-of-towners for pointing out an unconstitutional practice here at UT. None of this has changed my opinion that Campbell is a good guy trying to do right by his players. He made a mistake, it was pointed out, and he has corrected it.

Why are people threatened by prohibiting prayers led by the coach? Anyone who wants to pray has plenty of opportunity to do so.

It is not unconstitutional. It happens all over the country. What's unconstitutional, would be forcing a kid to pray if he did not share the same Faith. I am sure Coach Campbell respected any kid that had a differing Faith. Actually, I believe the constitution is supposed to protects all of us from the government not allowing us to profess our Faith.

What are you referring to by "it?" Possibly, you're arguing something different.

Your position seems to imply that Coach caved in on something that was obviously important to him. From your understanding of the coach, does that seem reasonable or is it more likely that the University and the Coach saw a problem, morally, constitutionally, whatever, with a university official leading students in prayer?

What exactly do you think the issues were that resulted in Coach Campbell making this decision?

"it" refers to professing one's Faith... I think Coach Campbell was pressured by the University to back down. Which I think is a shame. I am a big supporter of Coach Campbell and I wished he would have fought against this because I believe it is an attack on his constitutional rights. He is a class act and UT is very fortunate to have him leading the Rockets.

Do you agree with what is going on at Dearborn Fordson HS? I am interested to hear your take? I have a consistent stance. I believe they have the right to profess their Muslim Faith, since the majority of kids that go to school and on the Team are Muslim... I just wouldn't send my kid to that school. That is my right. The great majority of this country is Christian.. and as Christians we have the right to profess our Faith, where ever and whenever we choose...

Please, no one is denying Campbell the right to profess his faith.

No, you do not have a right to profess your faith wherever and whenever you choose. If you are a judge imposing sentence, your sentence may be overturned on appeal if you profess your faith while explaining why you are giving a particular sentence. If you are a fourth-grade teacher at a public school, you could be disciplined for professing your faith every morning to your students. If you are a server at a restaurant, your employer may ask you not to proselytize the customers. If you refuse that request, you may be fired.

Not to worry, though. There are still plenty of other opportunities to profess your faith.

(06-23-2015 11:50 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 11:22 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(06-23-2015 10:57 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 01:06 PM)Dwight Wrote:  Some people are OK with a coach proselytizing as long as they agree with that coach's religious beliefs. That is short-sighted, in my opinion (or myopic, if you prefer). For those who practice a minority religion, it's very easy to see the benefits of separating church and state. For those in the majority religion, perhaps it's less obvious. I appreciate those out-of-towners for pointing out an unconstitutional practice here at UT. None of this has changed my opinion that Campbell is a good guy trying to do right by his players. He made a mistake, it was pointed out, and he has corrected it.

Why are people threatened by prohibiting prayers led by the coach? Anyone who wants to pray has plenty of opportunity to do so.

It is not unconstitutional. It happens all over the country. What's unconstitutional, would be forcing a kid to pray if he did not share the same Faith. I am sure Coach Campbell respected any kid that had a differing Faith. Actually, I believe the constitution is supposed to protects all of us from the government not allowing us to profess our Faith.

What are you referring to by "it?" Possibly, you're arguing something different.

Your position seems to imply that Coach caved in on something that was obviously important to him. From your understanding of the coach, does that seem reasonable or is it more likely that the University and the Coach saw a problem, morally, constitutionally, whatever, with a university official leading students in prayer?

What exactly do you think the issues were that resulted in Coach Campbell making this decision?

"it" refers to professing one's Faith... I think Coach Campbell was pressured by the University to back down. Which I think is a shame. I am a big supporter of Coach Campbell and I wished he would have fought against this because I believe it is an attack on his constitutional rights. He is a class act and UT is very fortunate to have him leading the Rockets.

JMHO: you change the topic to what you want it to be, which is defensible, instead of what the topic actually is. Re: "strawman."

The University as a public institution, cannot be seen as promoting a religion or any religion. When one of the highest paid employees of that public institution says bring it on in, that's a very good case for promoting.

(06-23-2015 11:50 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  Do you agree with what is going on at Dearborn Fordson HS? I am interested to hear your take? I have a consistent stance. I believe they have the right to profess their Muslim Faith, since the majority of kids that go to school and on the Team are Muslim... I just wouldn't send my kid to that school. That is my right. The great majority of this country is Christian.. and as Christians we have the right to profess our Faith, where ever and whenever we choose...

I do not know what is going on there but inferring from the rest of your post, my stance would be, "it's not my business, it's the business of following the law." I don't get an opinion that matters and neither do you. We don't get to choose, which laws get followed and which do not.

(06-23-2015 10:57 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  It is not unconstitutional. It happens all over the country. What's unconstitutional, would be forcing a kid to pray if he did not share the same Faith. I am sure Coach Campbell respected any kid that had a differing Faith. Actually, I believe the constitution is supposed to protects all of us from the government not allowing us to profess our Faith.

I live in Michigan and there is a predominately Muslim "PUBLIC " school in Dearborn MI (Dearborn Fordson) They are allowed to openly profess there Muslim Faith publicly and with the Team. For Pete sake, they had a TV show on it and NO ONE said a thing!! Just look at photos on the attached link. It is amazing the Hypocrisy in this country. The PC world we live in would never go after this school. But it is "open season" on Christians.

http://www.fordsonthemovie.com/story.php#

I don't know a lot about Fordson, but I think it is incorrect to say that "no one said a thing". I believe there was at least one lawsuit against the school that identified a number of things including prayer. I don't know how that lawsuit turned out.

There is one picture at that link that shows the students praying, but it doesn't appear to show the coach leading the prayer. That's a critical difference. No one that I can recall on this thread has argued that the students don't have a right to pray or that the coach doesn't have a right to pray. What is at question is whether the coach - at a publicly funded school - has a right to lead the team in a prayer from a particular religion denomination. If the students at Fordson are praying of their own accord, without an official leading the prayer, I don't believe there would be any issue.

And to illustrate the problems with coaches leading prayers, look up the case of Marcus Bolden, a high school coach in New Jersey. Courts held that the coach did not have a free speech right to lead the team in a Catholic prayer. In fact, the lawsuits went so far to say that he couldn't even kneel and bow his head during the student-led prayer. I don't believe the courts ever said that the students could not pray of their own accord.

This argument by my fellow Christians infuriates me so much. As a Christian, we're taught that God is everywhere...especially in your heart. We're taught that we can pray anywhere...and we can. We don't need to be lead in any prayer to pray or to talk to God.

God has not been removed from the schools. He's still there. My daughter can talk to him and pray pretty much anytime she wants to.

We need to stop playing this lame victim card all the time and start showing people the love of Christ through our actions.

(06-24-2015 09:35 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  This argument by my fellow Christians infuriates me so much. As a Christian, we're taught that God is everywhere...especially in your heart. We're taught that we can pray anywhere...and we can. We don't need to be lead in any prayer to pray or to talk to God.

God has not been removed from the schools. He's still there. My daughter can talk to him and pray pretty much anytime she wants to.

We need to stop playing this lame victim card all the time and start showing people the love of Christ through our actions.

Amen.

(06-24-2015 09:35 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  This argument by my fellow Christians infuriates me so much. As a Christian, we're taught that God is everywhere...especially in your heart. We're taught that we can pray anywhere...and we can. We don't need to be lead in any prayer to pray or to talk to God.

God has not been removed from the schools. He's still there. My daughter can talk to him and pray pretty much anytime she wants to.

We need to stop playing this lame victim card all the time and start showing people the love of Christ through our actions.

You can say a silent prayer in a prison camp with death threats for outward prayer, but I wouldn't exactly equate that with freedom of religious expression.

(06-24-2015 09:35 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  This argument by my fellow Christians infuriates me so much. As a Christian, we're taught that God is everywhere...especially in your heart. We're taught that we can pray anywhere...and we can. We don't need to be lead in any prayer to pray or to talk to God.

God has not been removed from the schools. He's still there. My daughter can talk to him and pray pretty much anytime she wants to.

We need to stop playing this lame victim card all the time and start showing people the love of Christ through our actions.

I don't disagree with you at all about prayer and your actions being most important. ..But as a Christian, you are not only supposed to live as a Christian, you are supposed to spread the word of Christ and not be ashamed to express your Faith.

(06-24-2015 12:40 PM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(06-24-2015 09:35 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  This argument by my fellow Christians infuriates me so much. As a Christian, we're taught that God is everywhere...especially in your heart. We're taught that we can pray anywhere...and we can. We don't need to be lead in any prayer to pray or to talk to God.

God has not been removed from the schools. He's still there. My daughter can talk to him and pray pretty much anytime she wants to.

We need to stop playing this lame victim card all the time and start showing people the love of Christ through our actions.

I don't disagree with you at all about prayer and your actions being most important. ..But as a Christian, you are not only supposed to live as a Christian, you are supposed to spread the word of Christ and not be ashamed to express your Faith.

Sure. Just not when you are in your official capacity as an employee of a publicly funded institution.

(06-24-2015 12:40 PM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(06-24-2015 09:35 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  This argument by my fellow Christians infuriates me so much. As a Christian, we're taught that God is everywhere...especially in your heart. We're taught that we can pray anywhere...and we can. We don't need to be lead in any prayer to pray or to talk to God.

God has not been removed from the schools. He's still there. My daughter can talk to him and pray pretty much anytime she wants to.

We need to stop playing this lame victim card all the time and start showing people the love of Christ through our actions.

I don't disagree with you at all about prayer and your actions being most important. ..But as a Christian, you are not only supposed to live as a Christian, you are supposed to spread the word of Christ and not be ashamed to express your Faith.

You should read Thomas Jefferson's "Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom" that was passed by the Virginia General Assembly in 1786 (before the US was officially created). The Virginia Statue was written by Jefferson but sponsored by his friend James Madison in the General Assembly and forms the basis for many of James Madison's thoughts when he was one of those responsible for drafting the U.S. Constitution.

You may not like everything it says because it not only provides for religious freedom but it also provides for freedom from religion as well (Article II), but coming from where they had just been they felt a need for a clear and unqualified separation of state and church.

You see with the War of Revolution, Virginia also pretty much rejected the British system of a state established Church that had been an integral part of the Virginia Colony from day one. In Colonial Virginia each county eventually had its own Parrish that ideally included a church, parsonage and glebe lands as well as its own group of (lay) vestrymen and church wardens who among other things were responsible for enforcing the moral code and they could haul parishioners into court for such things as unexcused absence from church services (usually carried a fine), malicious gossip (usually required a public apology while wrapped in a white cloth before the congregation or the open court, and in serious cases perhaps a turn or two in the public dunking chair) and in more serious cases such as bastardy for example, the rich were generally heavily fined whereas the poor (woman and man if known) typically received 30-40 lashes at the public whipping post.

Hopefully, we have all moved beyond those times.

(06-24-2015 12:40 PM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(06-24-2015 09:35 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  This argument by my fellow Christians infuriates me so much. As a Christian, we're taught that God is everywhere...especially in your heart. We're taught that we can pray anywhere...and we can. We don't need to be lead in any prayer to pray or to talk to God.

God has not been removed from the schools. He's still there. My daughter can talk to him and pray pretty much anytime she wants to.

We need to stop playing this lame victim card all the time and start showing people the love of Christ through our actions.

I don't disagree with you at all about prayer and your actions being most important. ..But as a Christian, you are not only supposed to live as a Christian, you are supposed to spread the word of Christ and not be ashamed to express your Faith.

and we live in a diverse country whose laws recognize that sometimes we need to compromise for Peace. We are not a theocracy.

If someone wants to be a peaceful martyr for their cause then don't violate that law, be willing to accept the consequences: you work elsewhere. THAT's called "Faith."


There is NO law that dictates a coach that wants to or feels a religiously compelling reason to lead his team in prayer, has to work for a public institution. If not at a major university, that coach can still make a nice income working for a local private high school or a semi-pro team or even a pro-team. His rights are not being violated.

Coach Campbell is an asset. Fortunately for us, he has decided or at least agreed to make that compromise. I appreciate him even more for sacrificing a ceremony that means a lot to him.

Will BYU's Head Coach be allowed to lead a team prayer when it visits the Glass Bowl?

(06-25-2015 07:30 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  Will BYU's Head Coach be allowed to lead a team prayer when it visits the Glass Bowl?

Certainly hope so. BYU is a private, religous-based school.

(06-25-2015 08:34 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(06-25-2015 07:30 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  Will BYU's Head Coach be allowed to lead a team prayer when it visits the Glass Bowl?

Certainly hope so. BYU is a private, religous-based school.

as long as it's BYU's team he's leading. lol

Some seem to think the law means you cannot practice your religion on public property.

Wasn't Toledo "private" as one time? Maybe we should go back to that, join a Buddhist order or something.

Toledo was private and BG was once Normal. Neither is the case anymore.

(06-25-2015 07:32 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  Toledo was private and BG was once Normal. Neither is the case anymore.

Norml is still big at BG.