(04-01-2015 07:17 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 05:33 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  We've needed a new commissioner for a while now. The ESPN deals putting all our November games on weekday nights in the freezing cold at 8pm, kicking out UMass a little too early, list goes on.

Dis-agree with this. Karl Benson wanted UMass Football, however the universities of the Sun Belt did not feel that way during the vote. So it was not the commissioner, who it kicked us out, it was the council of presidents.

I'm a little confused by your post.

Are you making a parallel to an action by the Sun Belt Conference to show the difference between the commish and the council of presidents?

This is all totally foolish, nothing but liberal crap being shoved down our throats. The people protesting are the intolerant ones because they refuse to accept any other opinion other than theirs to be correct.

Let's take a look at two scenarios...if a black person owns a bakery and a fool walks in to order white cupcakes with red letters saying KKK, that owner has every right to refuse his business. In the same situation, if a very religious person owns a bakery and a homosexual couple walks in to be a pie and a wedding cake for themselves, that person too has the same right to say I'll sell you pie but cannot sell you a wedding cake due to my beliefs. In both situations those customers can take their business elsewhere, no harm, no foul.

This entire story has turned insane due to the intolerance of liberals having any sense of reason.

Now another liberal governor and the MAC Commish jump into it trying to fire up his base or to prove that the MAC has relevance (which it did under Rick Chryst) as the fool in the White House is trying to make a horrible deal with Iran that actually will affect lives in the Middle East and one day here in America and yet this Indiana thing is what is making news.

Geez, what ever happened to quality journalism versus the liberal tripe we have now?

Dear Nick in Cleveland,
I bet you get all of your information from Fox News too. The most biased, lying, just plain stupid station out there.

(04-01-2015 08:16 PM)Nick in Cleveland Wrote:  This is all totally foolish, nothing but liberal crap being shoved down our throats. The people protesting are the intolerant ones because they refuse to accept any other opinion other than theirs to be correct.

Let's take a look at two scenarios...if a black person owns a bakery and a fool walks in to order white cupcakes with red letters saying KKK, that owner has every right to refuse his business. In the same situation, if a very religious person owns a bakery and a homosexual couple walks in to be a pie and a wedding cake for themselves, that person too has the same right to say I'll sell you pie but cannot sell you a wedding cake due to my beliefs. In both situations those customers can take their business elsewhere, no harm, no foul.

This entire story has turned insane due to the intolerance of liberals having any sense of reason.

Now another liberal governor and the MAC Commish jump into it trying to fire up his base or to prove that the MAC has relevance (which it did under Rick Chryst) as the fool in the White House is trying to make a horrible deal with Iran that actually will affect lives in the Middle East and one day here in America and yet this Indiana thing is what is making news.

Geez, what ever happened to quality journalism versus the liberal tripe we have now?

Sir, here is an alternative point of view to yours:

Here an Indy Star article liberally (no pun intended) quoting the Religious Freedom law in Indiana and the one Chuck Schumer helped write.

Chuck Schumer indicates:

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/polit.../70729888/

"One of them is U.S. Sen. Chuck Schumer who, along with Sen. Ted Kennedy, introduced the federal RFRA when he was a congressman in 1993. The Democrat from New York said on his Facebook page that saying the two laws mirror each other is "completely false" and "disingenuous" and called on Pence to stop making such comparison."

Folks are saying "Religious Freedom" = "Religious Freedom" since they are both "Religious Freedom"... doh...

That's like saying the late Ted Kennedy and Ted Cruz are both democrats (lower case 'D') yet one could put thousand of miles between them...

Perimeter post put it quite nicely. Interesting that the law suddenly passed shortly after the long overdue introduction of marriage rights in Indiana. This isn't a religious issue and it has nothing to do with Christianity or liberal politics. It has to do with intolerance and, as PP indicated, the insane notion that businesses are people.

(04-01-2015 08:16 PM)Nick in Cleveland Wrote:  This is all totally foolish, nothing but liberal crap being shoved down our throats. The people protesting are the intolerant ones because they refuse to accept any other opinion other than theirs to be correct.

Let's take a look at two scenarios...if a black person owns a bakery and a fool walks in to order white cupcakes with red letters saying KKK, that owner has every right to refuse his business. In the same situation, if a very religious person owns a bakery and a homosexual couple walks in to be a pie and a wedding cake for themselves, that person too has the same right to say I'll sell you pie but cannot sell you a wedding cake due to my beliefs. In both situations those customers can take their business elsewhere, no harm, no foul.

This entire story has turned insane due to the intolerance of liberals having any sense of reason.

Now another liberal governor and the MAC Commish jump into it trying to fire up his base or to prove that the MAC has relevance (which it did under Rick Chryst) as the fool in the White House is trying to make a horrible deal with Iran that actually will affect lives in the Middle East and one day here in America and yet this Indiana thing is what is making news.

Geez, what ever happened to quality journalism versus the liberal tripe we have now?

I knew as soon as this thread posted it was going to go downhill pretty quickly. But, that said, Nick is right on the money here.

There is nothing more disturbingly amusing than watching the intolerance of the tolerance crowd throwing a tantrum and labeling everyone that disagrees with them as stupid, ignorant or misinformed because they can't win arguments using rational thought.

As William F. Buckley, Jr., said "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views."

But that's not even the entirety of the issue at hand.

The fact is, this law doesn't do what the shrill cries of the left are claiming it will do. Further, it mirrors the 1993 law signed by Democratic hero Bill Clinton into law.

Shameful of the MAC to have such a knee-jerk reaction, but that is what we have come to expect from academia in general, so the MAC is just doing what is easiest, and trying to demonstrate its supposed bona fides.

The reporting on this has been hysterical and short on facts.

I think it is healthy to debate this matter, but it does nobody any service to assume somebody is deserving of contempt for disagreeing.

I miss the level-headed leadership of Rick Chryst and it's sad we are being diverted into this maelstrom while our current WH occupant works overtime to ensure Iran gets nukes, while doing everything he can domestically to foment strife and discord.

We no longer can have civilized debates.

There -- and no, I don't feel better.

Extremely well stated Dave, thank you!

(04-01-2015 08:11 PM)emu steve Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 07:17 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 05:33 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  We've needed a new commissioner for a while now. The ESPN deals putting all our November games on weekday nights in the freezing cold at 8pm, kicking out UMass a little too early, list goes on.

Dis-agree with this. Karl Benson wanted UMass Football, however the universities of the Sun Belt did not feel that way during the vote. So it was not the commissioner, who it kicked us out, it was the council of presidents.

I'm a little confused by your post.

Are you making a parallel to an action by the Sun Belt Conference to show the difference between the commish and the council of presidents?

Sorry for the poor phrasing. The second sentence should have been last.
In both cause saying it's not the commissioners that do the voting.

"Dis-agree with this. It was not the commissioner, who it kicked us out, it was the council of presidents. Karl Benson wanted UMass Football, however the universities of the Sun Belt did not feel that way during the vote."

Stienbrecher should be more worried about his job. He has a terrible TV package in both football and basketball. Fans lost interest this year because nothing is on TV. What is he going to do. Not have the rest of the MAC play away games at Ball State. What an idiot. What is the MAC supposed to boycott? Ball State. Stay out of politics and get us back on regional TV.

(04-01-2015 08:16 PM)Nick in Cleveland Wrote:  This is all totally foolish, nothing but liberal crap being shoved down our throats. The people protesting are the intolerant ones because they refuse to accept any other opinion other than theirs to be correct.

I'll confess, I am intolerant of discrimination and bigotry. Our constitution says all men are created equal and that we all have to right to the pursuit of happiness. The right to discriminate does not supersede the right to be protected from discrimination, even if the discrimination is done in the name of religious freedom.

(04-01-2015 08:16 PM)Nick in Cleveland Wrote:  Let's take a look at two scenarios...if a black person owns a bakery and a fool walks in to order white cupcakes with red letters saying KKK, that owner has every right to refuse his business.

In this scenario you're comparing the LGBT community to members of the KKK? This is not a valid comparison, for obvious reasons.

(04-01-2015 08:16 PM)Nick in Cleveland Wrote:  In the same situation, if a very religious person owns a bakery and a homosexual couple walks in to be a pie and a wedding cake for themselves, that person too has the same right to say I'll sell you pie but cannot sell you a wedding cake due to my beliefs.

Luke 16:18 "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."
Exodus 20:14 "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
Leviticus 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with anotherman's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."
Romans 7:3 "So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man."
Hebrews 13:4 "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."

You'll have to forgive me for not believing the sincerity of the claim that goods and services for weddings should be denied on the basis of religious beliefs when there are so many more egregious sins already committed that go unprotested.

Matthew 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged."

(04-01-2015 08:16 PM)Nick in Cleveland Wrote:  In both situations those customers can take their business elsewhere, no harm, no foul.

We've tried this approach of letting business owners discriminate against minorities, we did it for 100 years from 1865-1964 in the South. It was called Jim Crow and it was a disgraceful failure. No harm, no foul? Hardly. Worth noting that the southern states felt that they were in the right to secede from the Union to protect their right to own slaves based on their (correct) interpretation of the Bible and its views on owning other human beings as slaves.

(04-01-2015 08:16 PM)Nick in Cleveland Wrote:  This entire story has turned insane due to the intolerance of liberals having any sense of reason.

As I stated previously, I have no tolerance for bigotry and discrimination and I find my conclusion to be a reasonable one based on my interpretation of the Constitution and on the Christian values I was raised with.

(04-01-2015 08:16 PM)Nick in Cleveland Wrote:  Now another liberal governor and the MAC Commish jump into it trying to fire up his base or to prove that the MAC has relevance (which it did under Rick Chryst) as the fool in the White House is trying to make a horrible deal with Iran that actually will affect lives in the Middle East and one day here in America and yet this Indiana thing is what is making news.

Republican governors in Arizona and Arkansas have rejected similarly proposed legislation, this is not a partisan issue.

I find your claim that the MAC was more relevant under Chryst to be quite humorous.

I am no defender of Pres Obama but I do have the decency to criticize a president of the United States, current or previous, without reverting to name calling out of respect for the office and what it represents.

(04-01-2015 08:16 PM)Nick in Cleveland Wrote:  Geez, what ever happened to quality journalism versus the liberal tripe we have now?

Fox News is the largest cable news network but its the liberals that have ruined journalism? CNN and MSNBC are garbage too but I'm not so naive as to believe that liberals are solely to blame for the decline of the Fourth Estate.

Yep, knew this one had POLITICS written all over it.

Let me recap something I posted somewhere:

There is a group, ALEC, which is a very much far right group ala Heritage, Cato, etc.

Their purpose as an organization is to promulgate legislation at the state level. They seek out states which the most conservative Republications control (governors and legislators). And more legislation passed = more success.

They create and shop their legislation from state to state. I believe this legislation (e.g., IN and AR) is an example.

What they absolutely did NOT foresee is that this legislation would be so controversial and divide the country so badly.

This legislation was unnecessary (there weren't folks in the street marching demanding it, NOT a response to Democratic legislation, etc.) and to use a sports metaphor (on a sports board) an 'unforced turnover.' Just 'lobbyists' tallying up more legislation for their scorecards.

Welcome to the 'culture wars' circa 2016, a year early, thanks to ALEC and a GOP state government near you...

Thanks for nothing, ALEC, actually no thanks. March Madness is supposed to be about college basketball not state legislation.

(04-02-2015 04:27 AM)emu steve Wrote:  Yep, knew this one had POLITICS written all over it.

Let me recap something I posted somewhere:

There is a group, ALEC, which is a very much far right group ala Heritage, Cato, etc.

Their purpose as an organization is to promulgate legislation at the state level. They seek out states which the most conservative Republications control (governors and legislators). And more legislation passed = more success.

They create and shop their legislation from state to state. I believe this legislation (e.g., IN and AR) is an example.

What they absolutely did NOT foresee is that this legislation would be so controversial and divide the country so badly.

This legislation was unnecessary (there weren't folks in the street marching demanding it, NOT a response to Democratic legislation, etc.) and to use a sports metaphor (on a sports board) an 'unforced turnover.' Just 'lobbyists' tallying up more legislation for their scorecards.

Welcome to the 'culture wars' circa 2016, a year early, thanks to ALEC and a GOP state government near you...

Thanks for nothing, ALEC, actually no thanks. March Madness is supposed to be about college basketball not state legislation.

This is completely accurate, and perimeterpost has done a great job of explaining the silliness of the people who feel the backlash is shocking and unfair.

This link is from a left-leaning organization, but ALEC has probably had the most success/done the most damage in Kansas, and this link and the links within it explain ALEC pretty accurately.

http://www.movingkansasforward.org/meet-alec

To get back to the discussion at hand, I'm proud that our commissioner was one of the first to take a stand against the ridiculousness in Indiana.

(04-02-2015 08:25 AM)Copy Cat Wrote:  

(04-02-2015 04:27 AM)emu steve Wrote:  Yep, knew this one had POLITICS written all over it.

Let me recap something I posted somewhere:

There is a group, ALEC, which is a very much far right group ala Heritage, Cato, etc.

Their purpose as an organization is to promulgate legislation at the state level. They seek out states which the most conservative Republications control (governors and legislators). And more legislation passed = more success.

They create and shop their legislation from state to state. I believe this legislation (e.g., IN and AR) is an example.

What they absolutely did NOT foresee is that this legislation would be so controversial and divide the country so badly.

This legislation was unnecessary (there weren't folks in the street marching demanding it, NOT a response to Democratic legislation, etc.) and to use a sports metaphor (on a sports board) an 'unforced turnover.' Just 'lobbyists' tallying up more legislation for their scorecards.

Welcome to the 'culture wars' circa 2016, a year early, thanks to ALEC and a GOP state government near you...

Thanks for nothing, ALEC, actually no thanks. March Madness is supposed to be about college basketball not state legislation.

This is completely accurate, and perimeterpost has done a great job of explaining the silliness of the people who feel the backlash is shocking and unfair.

This link is from a left-leaning organization, but ALEC has probably had the most success/done the most damage in Kansas, and this link and the links within it explain ALEC pretty accurately.

http://www.movingkansasforward.org/meet-alec

To get back to the discussion at hand, I'm proud that our commissioner was one of the first to take a stand against the ridiculousness in Indiana.

here, here!

To use a sports metaphor, on a sports board, yeah:

They (the far right or whatever term one wishes to use for ALEC, Heritage Action, Cato, etc. etc.) attempted to do a 'facial' dunk and got it rejected on them. They never expected it. They thought: Just another day at the legislature... No problem. Legislation passed. Quietly signed by the governor, no press conference, no signing pens, etc.

Instead of an ESPN top 10 highlight they got the rejection on ABC's Sunday morning show...

My guess is that it HARMED their cause. As I understand it, sexual orientation isn't a protected class for civil rights purposes. Now, proposed amendments, etc. could/would explicitly codify sexual orientation as having the same standing as gender, nationality, race, religion, etc.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/polit.../70766920/

IF I read this article correctly, it, the proposed 'fix' breaks new ground, the exact OPPOSITE, of what the signed legislation was attempting...

"Peterson said the words "gender identity" and "sexual orientation" will appear in state law in context of anti-discrimination for first time."

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/polit.../70766920/

(04-02-2015 09:30 AM)emu steve Wrote:  To use a sports metaphor, on a sports board, yeah:

They (the far right or whatever term one wishes to use for ALEC, Heritage Action, Cato, etc. etc.) attempted to do a 'facial' dunk and got it rejected on them. They never expected it. They thought: Just another day at the legislature... No problem. Legislation passed. Quietly signed by the governor, no press conference, no signing pens, etc.

Instead of an ESPN top 10 highlight they got the rejection on ABC's Sunday morning show...

My guess is that it HARMED their cause. As I understand it, sexual orientation isn't a protected class for civil rights purposes. Now, proposed amendments, etc. could/would explicitly codify sexual orientation as having the same standing as gender, nationality, race, religion, etc.

It didn't help Pence when he wouldn't answer a question even though George Stephanopoulos asked it 6 times. Then he backtracked on it pretty significantly in his press conference and will now "reread" the bill in an attempt to clarify it. Why didn't you "reread" it before you signed it? You're 100% right, Steve. There is no way they saw it having this much backlash, for whatever reason.

My favorite part was Pence citing Notre Dame as one of the beneficiaries of the bill, and then ND coming out against it. Oops.

(04-02-2015 09:53 AM)EagleSam Wrote:  

(04-02-2015 09:30 AM)emu steve Wrote:  To use a sports metaphor, on a sports board, yeah:

They (the far right or whatever term one wishes to use for ALEC, Heritage Action, Cato, etc. etc.) attempted to do a 'facial' dunk and got it rejected on them. They never expected it. They thought: Just another day at the legislature... No problem. Legislation passed. Quietly signed by the governor, no press conference, no signing pens, etc.

Instead of an ESPN top 10 highlight they got the rejection on ABC's Sunday morning show...

My guess is that it HARMED their cause. As I understand it, sexual orientation isn't a protected class for civil rights purposes. Now, proposed amendments, etc. could/would explicitly codify sexual orientation as having the same standing as gender, nationality, race, religion, etc.

It didn't help Pence when he wouldn't answer a question even though George Stephanopoulos asked it 6 times. Then he backtracked on it pretty significantly in his press conference and will now "reread" the bill in an attempt to clarify it. Why didn't you "reread" it before you signed it? You're 100% right, Steve. There is no way they saw it having this much backlash, for whatever reason.

My favorite part was Pence citing Notre Dame as one of the beneficiaries of the bill, and then ND coming out against it. Oops.

There is a big lesson for governors and legislators:

Think, think, think...

Understand that any action, especially one cloaked in secrecy, could back fire. Not saying it will, but the chance is always there.

Sometimes I'm shocked (actually not) that legislators pay so little attention to what could go wrong with their actions...

Like folks in the Midwest know of the problems in Madison and Lansing over right to work.

In the 21st century, things can heat up in a New York minute...

IF the legislation is needed to correct a specific problem fine, but to pass legislation in search of a problem is fool's gold...

To those on the left: By becoming an intolerant, torch carrying lynch mob intent on shutting down any dissent, through intimidation and any other means available, you have become everything you once claimed to detest.

Here is a WaPo article which, easily read, highlights the debate using the statements of a very conservative legislator in Va and the Va's governor's office. I think it frames the debate in easy to understand terms.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virg...ml?hpid=z4

BTW, we are having elections this November for our (Virginia) state legislators.

This is will boil over. Let the fun begin.

(04-02-2015 11:17 AM)HuronDave Wrote:  To those on the left: By becoming an intolerant, torch carrying lynch mob intent on shutting down any dissent, through intimidation and any other means available, you have become everything you once claimed to detest.

Unfortunately, I am afraid that both the left and the right are intent on imposing their personal standards and beliefs on everyone and the libertarian concept of taking care of your own business while leaving others to do the same, a premise upon which the country was founded has been tossed aside by a majority across the entire political spectrum.