(03-29-2015 03:50 PM)HoopDreams Wrote: I'm going to guess that the disparity between Memphis ranked recruiting classes was greater than the second highest ranked classes in CUSA versus the disparity between 1and 2 in all non P5 leagues.
An educated guess of ofcourse....Pastner does "less with more" is the phrase that caught my eye.....We're more talented than most of the teams in the top 25......In 2012, our recruiting class with Adonis Thomas put us @ pre-season #15, also take into account that our sos was #1....So, looking at this matrix Memphis recruits on an Elite/Blueblood/P5 level....it's amazing how some feel that our expectation level are too high for our University.
Our recruiting ability & hotbed of talent has gotten JP notoriety, It is our program that put him on the map as won of the winningest coaches, it's definitely NOT his coaching ability, as he has no structure or foundation to built upon, His coaching strategies are mere knee-jerk reactions that have become comical, mundane,tiresome, boring & simply pathetic...
Didn't mean to turn this into a rant....again your point is exactly that, on point....As we will always be, and have always been, One of THE most talented/loaded/ teams with the most potential in the college basketball landscape period!
Calipari exploited it and also used it to his advantage(what must people whom are greedy do)!.....Josh was a lucky recipient of this honor(as the opportunity feel into his lap). He has milked this program of it's heritage and we are barely clinging to the advantages that we have had as a talent hotbed, as now coaches are able to poach and pilfer the riches of Memphis basketball minerals....We need someone who is going to pull this back together and fast.....Almost a Larry Brown type of hire, whom has connections and resources as well as street cred.....Josh has absolutely zero cred!!!!!
I am starting to really like the guy @ GSU:
"One, Ron Hunter is 50; if he’s going to make a big move, he needs to make it soon. Two, his son R.J. is apt to leave for the NBA. Three, he’s making $425,000 at Georgia State — his salary gets bumped to $500,000 next season because the Panthers made the NCAA tournament — which is less than half of what Brian Gregory is being paid to coach Georgia Tech. Four, Hunter can really, really coach. But hold your horses. Here’s what Hunter said Sunday: “I am 50, and quality of life means more to me. That’s not to say if there’s a job for me — a no-brainer — than I’d say no to looking at that, but there aren’t many of those. I don’t have to chase money. My happiness means a lot more to me.” Then this: “I love where I’m at. I love what I’m doing.” Then: “Me just taking a job for the money, I’m not going to do that.” Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Or The Earl Watson/Hubie Brown connection:
"Watson told CSNNW.com earlier this year that if he were to obtain a head coaching job in the NBA next season, he would reach out to Coach Hubie Brown to gauge his interest in exiting his ESPN color commentating gig to become his lead assistant. It would be similar to what Jason Kidd did by bringing on Lawrence Frank". CSNNW.com
Rumors tagsPortland Trail Blazers, Utah Jazz, Coaching, Earl Watson, Hubie Brown
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"Brown, who loves Watson as if he were his own son, said if things materialized in that fashion, he would have to entertain Watson’s proposal, but said it would have to include little, to no traveling due to him getting up there in years. “I’m 80 years old and I’ll be 81 in September, but I wouldn’t mine doing the practices at home,” Brown told CSNNW.com. “You never know what could happen. He is a top professional. He has a high IQ, very coachable and very bright. He doesn’t miss a thing. He’s very inquisitive. He sees things, but picks his spots. I always say that he was one of the toughest kids to ever play for me. He’ll make an excellent NBA head coach.” CSNNW.com
Some of you can't be serious. You do realize this is basketball and not football right? Making the tourney at Memphis is not the standard, get over yourselves.. You're sitting here comparing us to typically bad programs in bad conferences.
How many Big East, American, and A-10 schools have made the tourney the last 2 years. Again, this isn't football. Learn the difference or continue looking ignorant.
No matter which way you spin it, Josh has under preformed. Has he been the worst thing to happen to us ever? No. Has he kept us decently a float? Yes. Has he been successful? No he's done less than expected.
If you truly think that making the tourney is the best we can do you have lost it and need to go cheer for some scrub team that gets in once every 5-6 years. You'll fit right in with their fans and your expectations will be spot on.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2015 10:16 PM by Tigermaniac.)
(03-29-2015 10:08 PM)Tigermaniac Wrote: Some of you can't be serious. You do realize this is basketball and not football right? Making the tourney at Memphis is not the standard, get over yourselves.. You're sitting here comparing us to typically bad programs in bad conferences.
How many Big East, American, and A-10 schools have made the tourney the last 2 years. Again, this isn't football. Learn the difference or continue looking ignorant.
No matter which way you spin it, Josh has under preformed. Has he been the worst thing to happen to us ever? No. Has he kept us decently a float? Yes. Has he been successful? No he's done less than expected.
If you truly think that making the tourney is the best we can do you have lost it and need to go cheer for some scrub team that gets in once every 5-6 years. You'll fit right in with their fans and your expectations will be spot on.
If I knew how to give rep points I would give them to you. You are spot on but it seems somewhere along the way all the matters is being one of the top 68 teams in the country and that is enough for the fan base now. We are seen to be crazy or unrealistic to expect more but yet we who expect more are considered bad fans. In order to be a good fan by their definition you have to be content with mediocrity and accept a clean program run by a nice guy and we should move on to expect more makes u a bad fan and a hater. I'm not sure how that happened but seems to the way it is now days. Sad but true. Good post though. I agree.
I have been thinking the same thing as the original poster. Some schools like Texas and UCLA it would seem hard for them not to make the tourney. The Bruins and Longhorns played like 15 or 16 big games, and all they had to do was win 3 or 4 of them. Other schools like Murray State couldn't get in with 25-game winning streaks.
Memphis is somewhere in the middle. They had a terrible year, but they could still have squeezed in with just a couple lucky bounces.
Memphis has some built in advantages like the P-5 schools (like a tremendous home court advantage and the ability to recruit better players in their league), but they don't have as simple of a pass as some of the P-5 schools.
Ok if u say so seems pretty clear but I'm not sure how u don't follow. The point is making the tourney is not some gold standard that should be celebrated as some huge success. So I guess u disagree which is fine. I don't buy into the notion that because u make the tourney u are bulletproof and have achieved some massive level of success. I guess u disagree which is fine. I don't see how u don't see the point. U either think making the tourney is enough or u expect more. It's not rocket science.
(03-30-2015 12:09 AM)TIGERBANDIT Wrote: I have been thinking the same thing as the original poster. Some schools like Texas and UCLA it would seem hard for them not to make the tourney. The Bruins and Longhorns played like 15 or 16 big games, and all they had to do was win 3 or 4 of them. Other schools like Murray State couldn't get in with 25-game winning streaks.
Memphis is somewhere in the middle. They had a terrible year, but they could still have squeezed in with just a couple lucky bounces.
Memphis has some built in advantages like the P-5 schools (like a tremendous home court advantage and the ability to recruit better players in their league), but they don't have as simple of a pass as some of the P-5 schools.
I thought the OP's argument was that simply making the tourney was nothing, that you must advance.
Fact is, the Tigers have advanced two of the four years they have been there, and were within a bad no-call of advancing in the first one.
I, too, wish they had gone further, but facts are facts.
The whole argument is irrational.
(This post was last modified: 03-30-2015 12:29 AM by Tiger Greg.)
(03-29-2015 01:55 PM)jason80 Wrote: At some point we have bought into the lie of making the tourney as some gold standard of success in college basketball and we take the bait hook line and sinker. For instance Texas was 20-14 which by no means a good record yet they make the tourney so by that alone defines in some peoples minds as a good season?
There are 68 teams that make the tourney which is a lot of teams since when did being the top 68 in anything make u a good team or a huge success. We have bought into this narrative that making the tourney is the gold standard when in actuality it's just a ploy coaches use to tout their mediocrity and hide behind their sub par seasons. People here do the same thing with Pastner he made the tourney four out of five years. So what so did 67 other teams. Maybe back in the day when it was smaller and an actual achievement to get in it was a big deal nowadays everyone makes it. At some point coaches should not be allowed to hide behind this. Again Texas was 20-14 is that really a good season? So because some committee who is in the back pocket of the power five says they are in now all of a sudden they had a great year?
This whole thing is silly making the tourney is not some huge accomplishment anymore but it's sold to us that way by coaches so they can hide behind their mediocrity and say see I made the tourney so I must have had a good year blah blah. When is 20-14 a good year ever? U lost almost half your games. This whole idea of making the tourney is a farce and yet we for some reason buy it and thus you are untouchable because u made the tourney. Coaches love this narrative because they can hide behind it and their mediocre seasons. I'm not fooled by it though most seem to be judging by the threads about Barnes. I don't know of any other sport where being the top 68 makes u a huge success but evidently in college basketball that is the mark of a great year so as long as you get in. So people should be content with 20-14 and 19-15 so long as some committee puts them in the tourney. It's laughable really and coaches use this constantly to keep their jobs at some point people need to realize making the tourney is not some huge accomplishment 68 teams make it last time I checked being in the top 68 doesn't mean a thing but to some it's obviously the gold standard it's a really weird thing.
(03-29-2015 01:55 PM)jason80 Wrote: At some point we have bought into the lie of making the tourney as some gold standard of success in college basketball and we take the bait hook line and sinker. For instance Texas was 20-14 which by no means a good record yet they make the tourney so by that alone defines in some peoples minds as a good season?
There are 68 teams that make the tourney which is a lot of teams since when did being the top 68 in anything make u a good team or a huge success. We have bought into this narrative that making the tourney is the gold standard when in actuality it's just a ploy coaches use to tout their mediocrity and hide behind their sub par seasons. People here do the same thing with Pastner he made the tourney four out of five years. So what so did 67 other teams. Maybe back in the day when it was smaller and an actual achievement to get in it was a big deal nowadays everyone makes it. At some point coaches should not be allowed to hide behind this. Again Texas was 20-14 is that really a good season? So because some committee who is in the back pocket of the power five says they are in now all of a sudden they had a great year?
This whole thing is silly making the tourney is not some huge accomplishment anymore but it's sold to us that way by coaches so they can hide behind their mediocrity and say see I made the tourney so I must have had a good year blah blah. When is 20-14 a good year ever? U lost almost half your games. This whole idea of making the tourney is a farce and yet we for some reason buy it and thus you are untouchable because u made the tourney. Coaches love this narrative because they can hide behind it and their mediocre seasons. I'm not fooled by it though most seem to be judging by the threads about Barnes. I don't know of any other sport where being the top 68 makes u a huge success but evidently in college basketball that is the mark of a great year so as long as you get in. So people should be content with 20-14 and 19-15 so long as some committee puts them in the tourney. It's laughable really and coaches use this constantly to keep their jobs at some point people need to realize making the tourney is not some huge accomplishment 68 teams make it last time I checked being in the top 68 doesn't mean a thing but to some it's obviously the gold standard it's a really weird thing.
You us the word "We" often in your post, yet I doubt you know many of the posters on here (nor do I). Perhaps it is hyperbole, or perhaps you truly believe in a collective "We", but I personally don't think just making the tournament is good enough in most years. But you have to look at each year individually and determine its success. Perhaps one year making the tournament is overachieving, another it is underperforming.
(03-29-2015 05:16 PM)thememphisshow Wrote: Why do we really count making the tournament during the C-USA era where Memphis had the tremendous advantage of the many areas:
1). Memphis had national name recognition following the coach Cal era. People overlook that we were one of the hottest schools in the NATION following those NCAA runs with Coach Cal.
2). The city of Memphis superior recruiting advantage.
3). The first year in the AAC, we had our best team with 4 senior guards. It was expected to not only make the tournament, but to get far. With a SENIOR laden team we get BLOWN OUT by Virginia.
4). Even with 4 senior guards and our best team, we still get blown out on our home floor against UCONN twice, and Cincy.
Memphis Fans who are want a change are not crazy. After last year, many fans have just lost confidence in Pastner's ability. For me, it was the blaming of players and throwing players under the bus (i.e. Joe Jackson, Micheal Dixon, Will Barton, Tarik Black and the list goes on).
Boy...that is one way to look at it.
Also, with those four senior guards, the team knocked off Louisville twice, Gonzaga, OK State and SMU, and then knocked off GW in the tourney.
Team did get blown out by UConn in the conference tourney, but the prior home game with the was tied with a few minutes left, and the Cincy game did not get the deceptive final score until they buried all their free throws late and Memphis did not score any more.
Discussing games and performances by our coach...is what everyone does, and where is your self righteous rage about Iverson who clearly threw his coach under the bus.
But I agree...if you do nothing but amplify the bad...use pejorative terms like blown out...ignore quite a bit of good or diminish it...things look much worse.
(03-29-2015 05:16 PM)thememphisshow Wrote: Why do we really count making the tournament during the C-USA era where Memphis had the tremendous advantage of the many areas:
1). Memphis had national name recognition following the coach Cal era. People overlook that we were one of the hottest schools in the NATION following those NCAA runs with Coach Cal.
2). The city of Memphis superior recruiting advantage.
3). The first year in the AAC, we had our best team with 4 senior guards. It was expected to not only make the tournament, but to get far. With a SENIOR laden team we get BLOWN OUT by Virginia.
4). Even with 4 senior guards and our best team, we still get blown out on our home floor against UCONN twice, and Cincy.
Memphis Fans who are want a change are not crazy. After last year, many fans have just lost confidence in Pastner's ability. For me, it was the blaming of players and throwing players under the bus (i.e. Joe Jackson, Micheal Dixon, Will Barton, Tarik Black and the list goes on).
Boy...that is one way to look at it.
Also, with those four senior guards, the team knocked off Louisville twice, Gonzaga, OK State and SMU, and then knocked off GW in the tourney.
Team did get blown out by UConn in the conference tourney, but the prior home game with the was tied with a few minutes left, and the Cincy game did not get the deceptive final score until they buried all their free throws late and Memphis did not score any more.
Discussing games and performances by our coach...is what everyone does, and where is your self righteous rage about Iverson who clearly threw his coach under the bus.
But I agree...if you do nothing but amplify the bad...use pejorative terms like blown out...ignore quite a bit of good or diminish it...things look much worse.
Congratulations...how pleasant for you.
The irony of calling someone else self righteous is simply unreal.
(03-30-2015 12:09 AM)TIGERBANDIT Wrote: I have been thinking the same thing as the original poster. Some schools like Texas and UCLA it would seem hard for them not to make the tourney. The Bruins and Longhorns played like 15 or 16 big games, and all they had to do was win 3 or 4 of them. Other schools like Murray State couldn't get in with 25-game winning streaks.
Memphis is somewhere in the middle. They had a terrible year, but they could still have squeezed in with just a couple lucky bounces.
Memphis has some built in advantages like the P-5 schools (like a tremendous home court advantage and the ability to recruit better players in their league), but they don't have as simple of a pass as some of the P-5 schools.
When you have top 10 recruiting classes, and a roster full of top 100 players, in a non P5 league, you should go to the NCAA Tournament.
However, you don't see teams like Wichita, Gonzaga, Butler, VCU, etc. running through crap leagues with McDonald's All-Americans either.
It is what it is.
Pastner has gotten to the NCAAs 4 out of 6 years, so you have to at least give him credit for recruiting his tail off to make that possible and, in turn, Pastner needs to send Joe Jackson a nice gift every year around March Madness time for saving him down in El Paso.
(This post was last modified: 03-30-2015 08:26 AM by HoopDreams.)
(03-30-2015 12:09 AM)TIGERBANDIT Wrote: I have been thinking the same thing as the original poster. Some schools like Texas and UCLA it would seem hard for them not to make the tourney. The Bruins and Longhorns played like 15 or 16 big games, and all they had to do was win 3 or 4 of them. Other schools like Murray State couldn't get in with 25-game winning streaks.
Memphis is somewhere in the middle. They had a terrible year, but they could still have squeezed in with just a couple lucky bounces.
Memphis has some built in advantages like the P-5 schools (like a tremendous home court advantage and the ability to recruit better players in their league), but they don't have as simple of a pass as some of the P-5 schools.
I thought the OP's argument was that simply making the tourney was nothing, that you must advance.
Fact is, the Tigers have advanced two of the four years they have been there, and were within a bad no-call of advancing in the first one.
I, too, wish they had gone further, but facts are facts.
The whole argument is irrational.
I think the concern is that with the most Talent Pastner has had at Memphis he only made the second round. Now logically with less talent Pastner will do less.
23-11 isn't much better, but it sure feels great to make the tourney and get to the final four ~ Tom Izzo
So 68 out of 351 schools make the big dance, and that isn't an accomplishment? Hrmmmmm.... That is 19% of the schools in all Division 1. It is a pretty big deal. Some teams get in off there name alone (UCLA, Texas, I would even say MIch State with there record)
(This post was last modified: 03-30-2015 10:00 AM by 40kel.)
(03-29-2015 01:55 PM)jason80 Wrote: At some point we have bought into the lie of making the tourney as some gold standard of success in college basketball and we take the bait hook line and sinker. For instance Texas was 20-14 which by no means a good record yet they make the tourney so by that alone defines in some peoples minds as a good season?
There are 68 teams that make the tourney which is a lot of teams since when did being the top 68 in anything make u a good team or a huge success. We have bought into this narrative that making the tourney is the gold standard when in actuality it's just a ploy coaches use to tout their mediocrity and hide behind their sub par seasons. People here do the same thing with Pastner he made the tourney four out of five years. So what so did 67 other teams. Maybe back in the day when it was smaller and an actual achievement to get in it was a big deal nowadays everyone makes it. At some point coaches should not be allowed to hide behind this. Again Texas was 20-14 is that really a good season? So because some committee who is in the back pocket of the power five says they are in now all of a sudden they had a great year?
This whole thing is silly making the tourney is not some huge accomplishment anymore but it's sold to us that way by coaches so they can hide behind their mediocrity and say see I made the tourney so I must have had a good year blah blah. When is 20-14 a good year ever? U lost almost half your games. This whole idea of making the tourney is a farce and yet we for some reason buy it and thus you are untouchable because u made the tourney. Coaches love this narrative because they can hide behind it and their mediocre seasons. I'm not fooled by it though most seem to be judging by the threads about Barnes. I don't know of any other sport where being the top 68 makes u a huge success but evidently in college basketball that is the mark of a great year so as long as you get in. So people should be content with 20-14 and 19-15 so long as some committee puts them in the tourney. It's laughable really and coaches use this constantly to keep their jobs at some point people need to realize making the tourney is not some huge accomplishment 68 teams make it last time I checked being in the top 68 doesn't mean a thing but to some it's obviously the gold standard it's a really weird thing.
(03-29-2015 05:16 PM)thememphisshow Wrote: Why do we really count making the tournament during the C-USA era where Memphis had the tremendous advantage of the many areas:
1). Memphis had national name recognition following the coach Cal era. People overlook that we were one of the hottest schools in the NATION following those NCAA runs with Coach Cal.
2). The city of Memphis superior recruiting advantage.
3). The first year in the AAC, we had our best team with 4 senior guards. It was expected to not only make the tournament, but to get far. With a SENIOR laden team we get BLOWN OUT by Virginia.
4). Even with 4 senior guards and our best team, we still get blown out on our home floor against UCONN twice, and Cincy.
Memphis Fans who are want a change are not crazy. After last year, many fans have just lost confidence in Pastner's ability. For me, it was the blaming of players and throwing players under the bus (i.e. Joe Jackson, Micheal Dixon, Will Barton, Tarik Black and the list goes on).
Quote:era where Memphis had the tremendous advantage of the many areas
If it is so easy to make the tournament when you are in CUSA; how come only 1 team makes it almost every year? If it is so easy to make the tournament when you are in CUSA; how come teams with an RPI in the 30's get left out and in the 40's almost never make it, while P5 programs with RPI's in the 40s' routinely make it?
We have some of the silliest, most uninformed fans. They will say ANYTHING even if it has no basis in fact; just because they hate Pastner. [/b]
(03-30-2015 12:12 AM)jason80 Wrote: Ok if u say so seems pretty clear but I'm not sure how u don't follow. The point is making the tourney is not some gold standard that should be celebrated as some huge success. So I guess u disagree which is fine. I don't buy into the notion that because u make the tourney u are bulletproof and have achieved some massive level of success. I guess u disagree which is fine. I don't see how u don't see the point. U either think making the tourney is enough or u expect more. It's not rocket science.
LMAO @ gold standard repeated 100 times. Who said anything about it being gold standard?
/
Making the tourney lie!
