(03-26-2015 08:48 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 11:03 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  I know nothing of LGBTQ culture and I do NOT believe in gay marriage, but .... I thought I read that the likely cause of transgender "syndrome" is that the baby's brain is mistakenly saturated with the hormones of the opposite gender while in the womb, so the child is actually born with a brain that is cross-wired with the physical body.

If that is true, I'm somewhat sympathetic with these kids. I'm also still suspicious of parents who insist their pre-school child is transgender. I guess at this point, I don't know what to believe.

During development, SRY gene (on Y chromosome) produces a protein called SRY protein. This leads to a cascade of protein transcription that ultimately leads to development of the testes from primordial gonad (undifferentiated gonadal tissue). The testes produce testosterone which then makes it's way to the brain, is converted there to estrogen, and masculinizes and defeminizes the brain. Females do not have this testosterone at the critical period (or limited amounts anyway) and as a result their brain is actively feminized.

This is how the brain masculinizes itself or stays in the more preset feminized lane.

Alpha fetoprotein is a protein that binds maternal estrogen, prevent mom's E from masculinizing females.


Any dysregulation of this (exposure of females to T during critical period, insensitivity of receptors to these hormones, etc.) can lead to developmental syndromes/disorders/defects if you will. I listed a laundry list of them in an earlier post.



THAT BEING SAID: to argue that THIS is the sole cause or even main cause for transgender subjects is a bit misguided. The truth is we don't know know. There is no one definitive mechanism we can point at and say yup, that's it.


Shrug.

So the default position for humanity is female. Being male requires an extra step, perhaps an evolutionary advancement? That's what I always suspected.

Just kidding.

Thank you for your explanation of the process.

(03-26-2015 09:16 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 08:48 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 11:03 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  I know nothing of LGBTQ culture and I do NOT believe in gay marriage, but .... I thought I read that the likely cause of transgender "syndrome" is that the baby's brain is mistakenly saturated with the hormones of the opposite gender while in the womb, so the child is actually born with a brain that is cross-wired with the physical body.

If that is true, I'm somewhat sympathetic with these kids. I'm also still suspicious of parents who insist their pre-school child is transgender. I guess at this point, I don't know what to believe.

During development, SRY gene (on Y chromosome) produces a protein called SRY protein. This leads to a cascade of protein transcription that ultimately leads to development of the testes from primordial gonad (undifferentiated gonadal tissue). The testes produce testosterone which then makes it's way to the brain, is converted there to estrogen, and masculinizes and defeminizes the brain. Females do not have this testosterone at the critical period (or limited amounts anyway) and as a result their brain is actively feminized.

This is how the brain masculinizes itself or stays in the more preset feminized lane.

Alpha fetoprotein is a protein that binds maternal estrogen, prevent mom's E from masculinizing females.


Any dysregulation of this (exposure of females to T during critical period, insensitivity of receptors to these hormones, etc.) can lead to developmental syndromes/disorders/defects if you will. I listed a laundry list of them in an earlier post.



THAT BEING SAID: to argue that THIS is the sole cause or even main cause for transgender subjects is a bit misguided. The truth is we don't know know. There is no one definitive mechanism we can point at and say yup, that's it.


Shrug.

So the default position for humanity is female. Being male requires an extra step, perhaps an evolutionary advancement? That's what I always suspected.

Just kidding.

Thank you for your explanation of the process.

Basically :). There is still an active process of feminization but without the Y chromosome and SRY gene, the innate path becomes female. It's a really beautiful mechanism if you think about it. One point of origin with such major downstream effects/consequences.


My absolute favorite disorder of study is Guevedoces. They lack an enzyme called 5 alpha reductase which converts prenatal T to DHT. DHT leads to sexual male organ development (descension of testes, *****/scrotum development). As a result they tend to look either amibiguous or female and are raised as such. At puberty they have a surge of this enzyme or enough T to cause sex organ maturation and then magically appear masculine (albeit infertile).

In their villages, guevedoces are revered and respected. (Guevedoce literally means ***** at 12).

(03-26-2015 08:48 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(03-25-2015 11:03 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  I know nothing of LGBTQ culture and I do NOT believe in gay marriage, but .... I thought I read that the likely cause of transgender "syndrome" is that the baby's brain is mistakenly saturated with the hormones of the opposite gender while in the womb, so the child is actually born with a brain that is cross-wired with the physical body.

If that is true, I'm somewhat sympathetic with these kids. I'm also still suspicious of parents who insist their pre-school child is transgender. I guess at this point, I don't know what to believe.

During development, SRY gene (on Y chromosome) produces a protein called SRY protein. This leads to a cascade of protein transcription that ultimately leads to development of the testes from primordial gonad (undifferentiated gonadal tissue). The testes produce testosterone which then makes it's way to the brain, is converted there to estrogen, and masculinizes and defeminizes the brain. Females do not have this testosterone at the critical period (or limited amounts anyway) and as a result their brain is actively feminized.

This is how the brain masculinizes itself or stays in the more preset feminized lane.

Alpha fetoprotein is a protein that binds maternal estrogen, prevent mom's E from masculinizing females.


Any dysregulation of this (exposure of females to T during critical period, insensitivity of receptors to these hormones, etc.) can lead to developmental syndromes/disorders/defects if you will. I listed a laundry list of them in an earlier post.



THAT BEING SAID: to argue that THIS is the sole cause or even main cause for transgender subjects is a bit misguided. The truth is we don't know know. There is no one definitive mechanism we can point at and say yup, that's it.


Shrug.

My main issue with the science of gender identity disorder is that I really don't think there's any convincing evidence that it's really any different than any other type of body dysmorphia.

In other words, are they much different than people who always think they are too fat or too ugly or have something else about their body that they obsess over?

It's long been accepted in science that people with insecurities about their bodies won't be cured by one or even multiple plastic surgeries. No one really seems to want to apply the same kind of skepticism to sex changes, even though there's evidence for it.

There is a study that came out of Sweden in 2011 (among others) that show that ultimately GID folks who get sex changes are no better off than those that don't get them.

"My main issue with the science of gender identity disorder is that I really don't think there's any convincing evidence that it's really any different than any other type of body dysmorphia."

That is definitely a mainstream argument. Surgeries are more of an aim to reduce the symptoms of gender dysphoria than it is to actually cure it. But all cases are so specific.


Is this the paper you reference? : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Quote: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

(03-26-2015 09:45 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  "My main issue with the science of gender identity disorder is that I really don't think there's any convincing evidence that it's really any different than any other type of body dysmorphia."

That is definitely a mainstream argument. Surgeries are more of an aim to reduce the symptoms of gender dysphoria than it is to actually cure it. But all cases are so specific.


Is this the paper you reference? : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Quote: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

Yes, that is the paper. I believe that research also showed that long-term (after 5 years) the benefits of SRS disappear.

So the question becomes rather SRS is actually an elective procedure or if it's a somewhat longer-lasting psychological placebo.

(03-26-2015 10:26 AM)EigenEagle Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 09:45 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  "My main issue with the science of gender identity disorder is that I really don't think there's any convincing evidence that it's really any different than any other type of body dysmorphia."

That is definitely a mainstream argument. Surgeries are more of an aim to reduce the symptoms of gender dysphoria than it is to actually cure it. But all cases are so specific.


Is this the paper you reference? : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Quote: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

Yes, that is the paper. I believe that research also showed that long-term (after 5 years) the benefits of SRS disappear.

So the question becomes rather SRS is actually an elective procedure or if it's a somewhat longer-lasting psychological placebo.

Just finished paper. Here's their conclusion for those wanting a TLDR:

Quote:This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.

What I draw from the paper is surgical intervention isn't enough alone to shift an already tenuous emotional landscape. It's already shown that a combination of surgery/pharmaceutical intervention/psychotherapy is the best route for treating mood and anxiety disorders. One would think an all of the above treatment for gender dysphoria and transgender subjects is warranted as well.

There are a lot of admitted confounds in these stories though. Cool paper though, ty for the tipoff.

Like the gay cake baking issue...this issue is another one pushed by those that have no concern for the feelings of others. It is ALL about ME and my needs. You are not allowed to have feelings. My NEEDS trump your feelings.

(03-29-2015 08:16 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Like the gay cake baking issue...this issue is another one pushed by those that have no concern for the feelings of others. It is ALL about ME and my needs. You are not allowed to have feelings. My NEEDS trump your feelings.

Right. I feel sorry for this boy/girl, but his/her wanting to cause a problem for the rest of the school is extremely selfish.

We live in an era of narcissism. I blame it on the 1960's cultural revolution. It's all about my feelings. To hell with the rest of you.

Yah... her desire to use the girl's bathroom is just a ruse to

Quote:her wanting to cause a problem for the rest of the school

(03-29-2015 09:26 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Yah... her desire to use the girl's bathroom is just a ruse to

Quote:her wanting to cause a problem for the rest of the school

I understand his/her desire to use the girls' bathroom. I'm sympathetic with that. But a noble person would suck it up and do what creates the least chaos for everyone else.

Everyone just cares about themselves. That's our society today. You can see this in a thousand little ways. Remember when that guy was down in the doorway to a convenience store and people were just stepping over him as he was dying? How many times have you seen people refuse to get out of the way of an ambulance with its lights & sirens going? It's all about me, me, me.

(03-29-2015 10:25 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(03-29-2015 09:26 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Yah... her desire to use the girl's bathroom is just a ruse to

Quote:her wanting to cause a problem for the rest of the school

I understand his/her desire to use the girls' bathroom. I'm sympathetic with that. But a noble person would suck it up and do what creates the least chaos for everyone else.

Everyone just cares about themselves. That's our society today. You can see this in a thousand little ways. Remember when that guy was down in the doorway to a convenience store and people were just stepping over him as he was dying? How many times have you seen people refuse to get out of the way of an ambulance with its lights & sirens going? It's all about me, me, me.

Nice way to sum it up. We have turned into a group of people that likes to impose ourselves on others.

Indiana passes a law saying "You can't make a Muslim cater to a Christian wedding" and people are acting like you've just instituted Jim Crow.

I can only say one thing. To all those gays/sympathizers be glad you live in the good ol' US of A because this is one of the few that cater to stupidity. Try this in Indonesia or any Arab country, they'd chop off your head before laughing their butts off at your New Emergent culture. Unbelieveable is a good word for this.

You'd love for that to be in the USA I'm sure. The first to pull the guillotine handle.

(03-29-2015 01:01 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  You'd love for that to be in the USA I'm sure. The first to pull the guillotine handle.

Dehumanizing people you disagree with in an effort to distort their position?

Still don't know why I'm supposed to sympathize with a boy wanting to use the girls bathroom

(03-29-2015 01:15 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(03-29-2015 01:01 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  You'd love for that to be in the USA I'm sure. The first to pull the guillotine handle.

Dehumanizing people you disagree with in an effort to distort their position?

The dude literally just said that by killing people, other countries don't cater to stupidity. L O FREAKIN L

Hugh amount of territory between not catering to stupidity and killing.

(03-29-2015 02:11 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Hugh amount of territory between not catering to stupidity and killing.

Too much nuance for JD in this instance..

Whatever helps you guys sleep. Justify however you like.

One country kills. One country legislates against and creates a second class citizen. Either way, hateful schmucks.

You guys couldn't keep up with the actual thought provoking conversation in this thread so back you went to petty insults and flat arguments.

Awe, poor wittle fewwow