(03-05-2015 05:57 PM)pesik Wrote:  if you didnt feel like reading SEC has decided they are going to push to be one of the best basketball leagues and what they believed is most important was scheduling and proposed and actually put out some drastic measures to potentially to do so

"To help avoid successive bad years, Slive has hired former NCAA tournament guru Greg Shaheen as a scheduling consultant for his conference. And every school has agreed to send its non-conference schedule to the league office for feedback/tweaking/outright rejection."

they have a committee that oversees their leagues scheduling

Aresco? I mean you are aware there's a "conference problem" here --- right?

(03-05-2015 05:57 PM)pesik Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 05:24 PM)TheEastisPurple Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 04:38 PM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 10:31 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Not only hurts the RPIs of other teams in the conference but the perception of the conference as a whole. Other conferences have scheduling requirements for it's members. Is there anything in the works for this conference and scheduling?

OOC SOS:

ECU 300
UCF 319
Tulane 326
Houston 330

Well if this group of 4 didn't suck, it would move the strength of themselves into the ooc opponents SOS. I bet that would be a huge factor.

Exactly. It's a two part problem. You can't take a crappy team and game the system into them having a good RPI. It's a combination of scheduling better and also being good enough to win some of those games.

Good teams don't want to play RPI killers (crappy teams). So how are crappy teams supposed to magically schedule all these good teams?

And even so George Mason has the 62nd best SOS right now and an RPI of 214 because they are 8-19. You can't just win games or just schedule better and magically have a good RPI, it has to be a combination of the two.

Hopefully ECU, UCF, USF, and Houston are in the process of upping their talent so they can schedule better and win some games and have a better RPI. I don't get why people think RPI is some system you can just game. Wouldn't everyone do that if it was the case? You could just win 15 games and make the tournament because your RPI was so good?

Obviously you can move it a few spots based on scheduling but it won't fix much if you aren't winning.

According to RealtimeRPI.com
Missouri has the 15th best SOS and an RPI of 202 at 8-21
USC has the 85th best SOS and an RPI of 204 at 11-18
George Mason has the 62nd best SOS and an RPI of 214 at 8-19
Gonzaga has the 77th best SOS and an RPI of 8 at 28-2

See the correlation?

i think you're misssing the correaltion an rpi of 202 is AMAZING for a team with only 8 wins..

ECU has 11 wins and an RPI of 223. Explain to me how the AAC making rules on scheduling would have any impact. Say ECU swaps their schedule for Missouri's. We now have the #15 SOS. We maybe win 8 games like Missouri has. Even if we do that our RPI moves up ~20 spots. How does that have any impact whatsoever on other AAC teams?

That great SOS only matters if you have wins to go with it.

The thing people don't seem to be getting is that RPI is an indicator (with fairly good accuracy) of how good teams are. You all are wanting ECU (or others with low RPIs) to somehow treat the symptom (RPI) to fix the problem (we suck). We can schedule like Missouri and it isn't going to do a damn thing to help us or anyone else in the conference. Unless you think those 23 spots are going to really make the difference.

Missouri has a low RPI because they suck. Gonzaga has great RPI because they are good. It doesn't really matter that Missouri has the 15th SOS and Gonzaga has the 77th. If Gonzaga played Missouri's schedule they might have an even better RPI because their talent far exceeds their scheduling. If ECU has Missouri's schedule nothing is going to change because our talent isn't there to get anything done with that schedule.

We have four teams - 4 - with OOC RPIs of 300 or more. Four teams -- that's almost half of the conference. Schedule out all of those bottom dweller RPI teams played OOC and the entire conference's RPI gets better. We play each other more than we play anyone else --- AT LEAST twice a season. Hell - ECU has played two in the bottom 10 of the 351 teams just this season. Drop them for starts.

(03-05-2015 06:50 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  We have four teams - 4 - with OOC RPIs of 300 or more. Four teams -- that's almost half of the conference. Schedule out all of those bottom dweller RPI teams played OOC and the entire conference's RPI gets better. We play each other more than we play anyone else --- AT LEAST twice a season. Hell - ECU has played two in the bottom 10 of the 351 teams just this season. Drop them for starts.

Correct me if im wrong, but this is ECU's first year in the AAC and this schedule was already set from CUSA days. Hopefully scheduling will improve in the next year or so and at the same time ECU won't have such bad starts to the year.

I know ECU's rpi is bad, but there aren't many here that would have thought ECU would split with Memphis and Cincy, and play UConn tough twice. Bad rpi and all, ECU has been a tough win for the most part and won't be a detriment to the conference for long.

(03-05-2015 06:39 PM)TheEastisPurple Wrote:  ECU has 11 wins and an RPI of 223. Explain to me how the AAC making rules on scheduling would have any impact. Say ECU swaps their schedule for Missouri's. We now have the #15 SOS. We maybe win 8 games like Missouri has. Even if we do that our RPI moves up ~20 spots. How does that have any impact whatsoever on other AAC teams?

That great SOS only matters if you have wins to go with it.

The thing people don't seem to be getting is that RPI is an indicator (with fairly good accuracy) of how good teams are. You all are wanting ECU (or others with low RPIs) to somehow treat the symptom (RPI) to fix the problem (we suck). We can schedule like Missouri and it isn't going to do a damn thing to help us or anyone else in the conference. Unless you think those 23 spots are going to really make the difference.

Missouri has a low RPI because they suck. Gonzaga has great RPI because they are good. It doesn't really matter that Missouri has the 15th SOS and Gonzaga has the 77th. If Gonzaga played Missouri's schedule they might have an even better RPI because their talent far exceeds their scheduling. If ECU has Missouri's schedule nothing is going to change because our talent isn't there to get anything done with that schedule.

you didnt read the articles i posted but mike silve does a great job of explaining it...simply put everyone schedule affects everyone

“One of the things that was eye-opening to coaches was how much every team’s schedule impacts the other teams,” said Florida coach Billy Donovan.

you are looking at it from a singular perspective, ECU's perspective, so we'd raise our RPI by 20 what difference does it make....

you have to look at it from the bigger picture for everyone from everyone, example, ecu gets a mizzou schedule jumps 20 spots higher in rpi , houston schedules better moves 20 spots higher, ucf schedules better they move 20 spots higher , tulane schedules better they move 20 spots higher..

what you dont see is that it then becomes exponential for the middling/top teams they are playing who's RPI would jumo 30-50 for beating the collective of teams whos rpi is now better.. look at the SEC example again, they have 5 .500-ish teams that are top 100 rpi

and your gonzaga example isnt what we are trying to reflect ..rpi or schedule is completely meaningless to teams that inteand to win 30+ and lose less than 3 games a year....this RPI argument is for the 3/4 teams that we will have yearly that will be on the bubble and i guarantee if we all raise our RPI we push 1 or 2 more in the tourney that otherwise wouldnt be.. its about the leagueas a whole

ps im not saying go schedule duke, uk, gonzaga, arizona, michgan and only top 25 teams ...schedule to your capabilities but at a respectable level ..no one needs to be bottom 300 OOC SOS (keep in mind that means over 300 ncaa d1 teams scheduled better non-cons than our half our conference).... buy games are essential but 5/6 games versus bottom 300 rpi/d2 teams is pushing it, which a couple of our teams did

(03-05-2015 06:59 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 06:50 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  We have four teams - 4 - with OOC RPIs of 300 or more. Four teams -- that's almost half of the conference. Schedule out all of those bottom dweller RPI teams played OOC and the entire conference's RPI gets better. We play each other more than we play anyone else --- AT LEAST twice a season. Hell - ECU has played two in the bottom 10 of the 351 teams just this season. Drop them for starts.

Correct me if im wrong, but this is ECU's first year in the AAC and this schedule was already set from CUSA days. Hopefully scheduling will improve in the next year or so and at the same time ECU won't have such bad starts to the year.

I know ECU's rpi is bad, but there aren't many here that would have thought ECU would split with Memphis and Cincy, and play UConn tough twice. Bad rpi and all, ECU has been a tough win for the most part and won't be a detriment to the conference for long.

You are wrong about that. Basketball schedules aren't set as far out as football. We had several openings where we could have better opponents. In other words, It was wasn't set prior to the AAC all sport invite.

(03-05-2015 07:45 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 06:59 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 06:50 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  We have four teams - 4 - with OOC RPIs of 300 or more. Four teams -- that's almost half of the conference. Schedule out all of those bottom dweller RPI teams played OOC and the entire conference's RPI gets better. We play each other more than we play anyone else --- AT LEAST twice a season. Hell - ECU has played two in the bottom 10 of the 351 teams just this season. Drop them for starts.

Correct me if im wrong, but this is ECU's first year in the AAC and this schedule was already set from CUSA days. Hopefully scheduling will improve in the next year or so and at the same time ECU won't have such bad starts to the year.

I know ECU's rpi is bad, but there aren't many here that would have thought ECU would split with Memphis and Cincy, and play UConn tough twice. Bad rpi and all, ECU has been a tough win for the most part and won't be a detriment to the conference for long.

You are wrong about that. Basketball schedules aren't set as far out as football. We had several openings where we could have better opponents. In other words, It was wasn't set prior to the AAC all sport invite.

So ECU filled their entire ooc schedule in the off season? Im sure some were scheduled this past off season, but how many?

I love the idea of having a consultant to oversee our league's scheduling. I don't think anyone can deny that it's working for the SEC.

(03-05-2015 08:01 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 07:45 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 06:59 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 06:50 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  We have four teams - 4 - with OOC RPIs of 300 or more. Four teams -- that's almost half of the conference. Schedule out all of those bottom dweller RPI teams played OOC and the entire conference's RPI gets better. We play each other more than we play anyone else --- AT LEAST twice a season. Hell - ECU has played two in the bottom 10 of the 351 teams just this season. Drop them for starts.

Correct me if im wrong, but this is ECU's first year in the AAC and this schedule was already set from CUSA days. Hopefully scheduling will improve in the next year or so and at the same time ECU won't have such bad starts to the year.

I know ECU's rpi is bad, but there aren't many here that would have thought ECU would split with Memphis and Cincy, and play UConn tough twice. Bad rpi and all, ECU has been a tough win for the most part and won't be a detriment to the conference for long.

You are wrong about that. Basketball schedules aren't set as far out as football. We had several openings where we could have better opponents. In other words, It was wasn't set prior to the AAC all sport invite.

So ECU filled their entire ooc schedule in the off season? Im sure some were scheduled this past off season, but how many?

Sigh... we didn't know the full schedule until August. So between last March and August the OOC had to be set. Like I said, it's not like football because there are so many other D1 teams.
http://www.ecupirates.com/sports/m-baskb...14aab.html

(03-05-2015 07:12 PM)pesik Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 06:39 PM)TheEastisPurple Wrote:  ECU has 11 wins and an RPI of 223. Explain to me how the AAC making rules on scheduling would have any impact. Say ECU swaps their schedule for Missouri's. We now have the #15 SOS. We maybe win 8 games like Missouri has. Even if we do that our RPI moves up ~20 spots. How does that have any impact whatsoever on other AAC teams?

That great SOS only matters if you have wins to go with it.

The thing people don't seem to be getting is that RPI is an indicator (with fairly good accuracy) of how good teams are. You all are wanting ECU (or others with low RPIs) to somehow treat the symptom (RPI) to fix the problem (we suck). We can schedule like Missouri and it isn't going to do a damn thing to help us or anyone else in the conference. Unless you think those 23 spots are going to really make the difference.

Missouri has a low RPI because they suck. Gonzaga has great RPI because they are good. It doesn't really matter that Missouri has the 15th SOS and Gonzaga has the 77th. If Gonzaga played Missouri's schedule they might have an even better RPI because their talent far exceeds their scheduling. If ECU has Missouri's schedule nothing is going to change because our talent isn't there to get anything done with that schedule.

you didnt read the articles i posted but mike silve does a great job of explaining it...simply put everyone schedule affects everyone

“One of the things that was eye-opening to coaches was how much every team’s schedule impacts the other teams,” said Florida coach Billy Donovan.

you are looking at it from a singular perspective, ECU's perspective, so we'd raise our RPI by 20 what difference does it make....

you have to look at it from the bigger picture for everyone from everyone, example, ecu gets a mizzou schedule jumps 20 spots higher in rpi , houston schedules better moves 20 spots higher, ucf schedules better they move 20 spots higher , tulane schedules better they move 20 spots higher..

what you dont see is that it then becomes exponential for the middling/top teams they are playing who's RPI would jumo 30-50 for beating the collective of teams whos rpi is now better.. look at the SEC example again, they have 5 .500-ish teams that are top 100 rpi

and your gonzaga example isnt what we are trying to reflect ..rpi or schedule is completely meaningless to teams that inteand to win 30+ and lose less than 3 games a year....this RPI argument is for the 3/4 teams that we will have yearly that will be on the bubble and i guarantee if we all raise our RPI we push 1 or 2 more in the tourney that otherwise wouldnt be.. its about the leagueas a whole

Fair enough.

I think the key is to mix in games against top teams and decent teams and don't play more than 1 or 2 bad ones. I think Marquette is a good example for this year. Non conference they lost to #23 Ohio State, Michigan State, and #6 Wisconsin and ended up with a non con RPI of 141.

UCF likes to play a lot of Florida teams. Problem is outside of Miami, UF, and FSU they mostly stink. Even our game against FSU is usually a rpi of sub 60.

Biggest thing for ucf is just winning the games against these sub 200 ooc games. Rpi factors winning too so we just need to work on that side before pumping up the schedule more.

(03-05-2015 10:31 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  Not only hurts the RPIs of other teams in the conference but the perception of the conference as a whole. Other conferences have scheduling requirements for it's members. Is there anything in the works for this conference and scheduling?

OOC SOS:

ECU 300
UCF 319
Tulane 326
Houston 330

This is beyond unacceptable and a big reason the UC and Uconn fans gripe about the AAC; and rightfully so.

Cupcake non-conf schedules are not an acceptable option. If you win the RPI doesn't go anywhere and playing bad teams doesn't help your players grow. Not to mention, recruits want to play big time games and networks want to carry national brands. Serious Bball conferences make sure to schedule decent to solid non-conf schedules. You want to be considered a legit conference then act like it.

(03-05-2015 02:45 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  The key is finding better "buy" games. If half of your schedule is against teams from the SWAC, MEAC, Southland, etc. -- you're in trouble. Leagues like the MAC, C-USA, Horizon, etc. are better to schedule if you can swing it. Also, some of the P5 schools may snub us on home-and-home agreements, but there are lots of good programs in the Atlantic 10, Mountain West, MVC, WCC, and elsewhere who may be more agreeable to do business with.

Once most of the basketball powers left the conference, Mick Cronin mentioned the need to up our non-conference scheduling. We have had success finding games with good programs outside the P5 such as VCU, San Diego State, and New Mexico. Just as importantly, a concerted effort was made to trade a few of our "low-major" games for "mid-major" opponents. Swapping a couple of sub-250 RPI teams for teams in the 100's makes a huge difference in SOS.

ECU can't get "buy" games against the MAC, C-USA, Horizon, etc for a whole host of different reasons. ECU is only one year removed from being a "mid major" and has always been an awful mid major. Expecting decent mid majors to be agreeable to buy games with us is asking a lot. So for ECU unfortunately in the short term until perception changes it's either play very few home OOC games or be forced to have some low major buy games.

In this thread, I've seen the argument that if ECU, for example, schedules tougher games that they would accumulate more losses and still have a poor RPI. That's the downside perhaps but doesn't eliminate the possibility of upsetting a top team.

On paper, Temple wasn't supposed to beat the highly RPI Kansas team but the did. That win may be the game that sends them to the NCAA tournament.

Moral is, schedule at least some tough games and hope that you can pull out a huge win somewhere along the line. Who knows, beating a Gonzaga-like team on the road could make a season.

(03-06-2015 11:09 AM)sfink16 Wrote:  In this thread, I've seen the argument that if ECU, for example, schedules tougher games that they would accumulate more losses and still have a poor RPI. That's the downside perhaps but doesn't eliminate the possibility of upsetting a top team.

On paper, Temple wasn't supposed to beat the highly RPI Kansas team but the did. That win may be the game that sends them to the NCAA tournament.

Moral is, schedule at least some tough games and hope that you can pull out a huge win somewhere along the line. Who knows, beating a Gonzaga-like team on the road could make a season.

For me it's more the realities of how does ECU schedule tougher and still get a decent number of OOC home games. The perception of ECU basketball locally and nationally is unfortunately trash. Respectable mid major programs have zero urge to be a buy game for us, and many don't even view playing us home and home as all that attractive currently. I'm not sure how ECU can overnight change a perception that we've unfortunately earned through years of sucking. It looks to me like the only way for ECU to have a quality OOC schedule is for us to play a bunch of buy games and accept years of maybe only 3-4 OOC home games.

This is such a great example why this conference is such a work in progress. Our top teams can compete with anyone in the P5( well most anyone) and our bottom 3-4 in football and basketball are as bad as anyone in the country. I have no idea what the solution is to all of this.

(03-06-2015 11:09 AM)sfink16 Wrote:  In this thread, I've seen the argument that if ECU, for example, schedules tougher games that they would accumulate more losses and still have a poor RPI. That's the downside perhaps but doesn't eliminate the possibility of upsetting a top team.

On paper, Temple wasn't supposed to beat the highly RPI Kansas team but the did. That win may be the game that sends them to the NCAA tournament.

Moral is, schedule at least some tough games and hope that you can pull out a huge win somewhere along the line. Who knows, beating a Gonzaga-like team on the road could make a season.

Most likely the RPI would still be slightly better at the least. It just proves that most ECU fans are clueless about basketball. This is coming from somebody that HATES how heavily weighted the NCAA selection committe uses RPI. I also hate how it's calculated. The RPI formula only bases 25% of it's calculation on the record of the team, 75% of it comes from opponents and opponents' opponents records. This is why the argument a lot of ECU fans keep using is faulty.

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5143295_rpi...lated.html

Quote:The RPI is calculated by using 25 percent of the team's winning percentage; 50 percent of its opponents' average winning percentage; and 25 percent of its opponents' opponents' average winning percentage. A team with a record of 8-0, opponents' winning percentage of .600 and opponents' opponents' winning percentage of .450 would have an RPI of 0.6625. That would read:
(1.000 x 0.25) + (0.600 x 0.50) + (0.450 x 0.25) or 0.2500 + 0.3000 + 0.1125= 0.6625.

As you can see, a ****** OOC can easily yield a poor RPI whether you win or lose. You basically get a lot of credit just for playing a good opponent and even more credit for playing them on the road (adjusted x1.4). Since 75% comes from factors outside of ECU's control, this should illustrate why it's much better to swap out a home game vs some scrub and go on the road vs the ACC for a paycheck.